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As I learn that unresolved dominants are typically not altered even in the "V of minor" cases (Rhythm Changes' bridge, etc.), I'm wondering about these particular changes:
C | E7 | F | E7 |
Am7 | D7...
What's the common practice approach for the E7?, as my recent findings would imply the first one is not altered and the second one is.
I promise not to open a thread for every standard with a E7. I'm just trying to get to terms with an F# tone there, i.e. non-altered 9 and thought that this particular sequence is interesting.
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06-09-2025 10:01 AM
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Similarly (dominant chord going to major chord half-step up), what treatment would be default for this B7 on There Will Never Be Another You? (last few chords, transposed to C this time).
F | Fm | C | B7 |
C F7 | Em7 A7 | Dm G7 | C ||
Obviously, unaltered gives a lot more movement / voice leading, with altered having a lot more common material between the B7 and the C chord both sides.
Thank you so much for you help. It means a world, truly.
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This is why these rules are tricky. This one is really just a common device in swing tunes to get from I to IV. It’s in the opening of Someday My Prince Will Come too.
Originally Posted by alez
I would use diatonic extensions on this one. So I’d play Bb major stuff with that F bumped up to F#.
Heres another classic example:
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> I would use diatonic extensions on this one. So I’d play Bb major stuff with that F bumped up to F#.
Sorry for being thick, but I don't understand this and I really want to. "Diatonic" is the opposite of "F#" as F# is not in the tune key signature (C) or "V of I minor" key signature (A minor). Maybe by "diatonic" you mean "not altered"?
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Its D7 in the key of Bb, so I’d play extensions on D7 from the key of Bb. Originally Posted by alez
D F# A C Eb G Bb
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> Heres another classic example:
Indeed!
I noticed this other one a while ago:
Same chord sequence over and over:
C | % | E | % | F | % | E | % | G | % :|
I like how the melody has the major third of the E.
Big thanks.
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> Its D7 in the key of Bb, so I’d play extensions on D7 from the key of Bb.
Crystal clear now. I was missing the key.
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> This is why these rules are tricky.
Indeed each occurrence seems to have unique characteristics, which is why we learn tunes
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I mean, sit at a piano Originally Posted by alez
Play C major
Play E7 and you will notice…
One chromatic note - G#.
What scale has a G# and all other notes natural?
A harmonic minor
I this progression as an evaded perfect cadence in the relative minor (Am), it later goes to Am and then C via D7.
E7 F6 E7 Am
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Oh I literally just now realized that I was giving you the example in Bb because I'd mentioned Someday My Prince Will Come. My bad. Originally Posted by alez
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> I mean, sit at a piano
All this comes from me spending a few hours on the piano these days. I haven't found time for it in recent times, and I really like to do it...
> What scale has a G# and all other notes natural?
A harmonic minor
OK, so that's E7b9b13. Unlike the Rhythm Changes' bridge one.
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> Oh I literally just now realized that I was giving you the example in Bb because I'd mentioned Someday My Prince Will Come. My bad.
You wasted 1-2 seconds of my life and around 0.3 kcal brain energy. I'm very upset now.
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Some people never forgive this sort of thing. Good to see you take life in stride. Originally Posted by alez
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FWIW in the 4th bar I play G6 for 2 beats followed by G#dim for 2 beats. Originally Posted by alez
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That's the way I hear it.
The first one is just E7.
The second one I sometimes play as Bm7b5 E7 Am - and that E7 can take alterations. E7b9 works. Or with no bassist, E7#11 with the Bb on the low E string. Solo, I may play Bb13 to Bb7 in that bar.
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> FWIW in the 4th bar I play G6 for 2 beats followed by G#dim for 2 beats.
Nice I've seen G7 G#dim7 as sub for Bm7b5 E7 before but not lately. Thanks for the reminder.
I don't find G6 often in tunes. Today I came across it while looking at The Frim-Fram Sauce.
> That's the way I hear it.
Very good, thanks.
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Bm7b5 has the same notes as a rootless G9. G#dim7 has the same notes as E7b9. Originally Posted by alez
> FWIW in the 4th bar I play G6 for 2 beats followed by G#dim for 2 beats.
Nice I've seen G7 G#dim7 as sub for Bm7b5 E7 before but not lately. Thanks for the reminder.
I don't find G6 often in tunes. Today I came across it while looking at The Frim-Fram Sauce.
> That's the way I hear it.
Very good, thanks.
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Yes, but a rooted G6, to me, gives a nice bass movement. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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You should always go by the melody note.
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> You should always go by the melody note.
Sometimes it's there (All of Me has a A7b9 on its A section and a A9 on its part B section), sometimes it's not (I'm Beginning to See the Light has chromatically descending dominants on its bridge and the melody has their root, 3rd and perfect fifth only).
But I see how the melody can narrow the choices available. In the case of All of Me, I don't think it would sound nice to sound the "wrong" 9.
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In this case, the melody note is E over that E7, so not terribly helpful. Originally Posted by sgcim
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Alez -
If we go back to the original question about the E7, I think the E7 is the least of your problems.
I wish I'd seen this before but here we are. The E7 in bar 2 is nothing, you can just outline it. The rest of the song is far more demanding.
Here's a track I did way back in 2015. This is in Eb but that doesn't matter, it's fine in C or whatever you like. But see what I'm saying, the E7 is just a passing sound, there are other bits of the tune that are far less easy to navigate.
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You could play that on the bridge of a C rhythm changes as well Originally Posted by alez
And you could play E13 on Sunny Side
So long as you hear it.
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II V I to the Am7 would work there... Am7 being the nice notes on an Fmaj7 Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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What are you on about? Originally Posted by ragman1
After those four bars the a section is
II7 - % - ii - V7
and the bridge is the Satin Doll bridge.
Sometimes I think you just say things.
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