I-VI7-ii-V7 question

[Sam b]

Hi,
I was reading this book and it said that in the above progression, in G let's say: G-E7-Am-D7, that one should think of the E7 as the fifth of Am and, as such, play the A harmonic minor over the E7. Is that how you think of it? It seems strange to me because I don't think of that Am as a tonic minor but the ii of G. So does it make sense to play A harmonic minor there?
Thanks!

[Mick-7]

Hi,
I was reading this book and it said that in the above progression, in G let's say: G-E7-Am-D7, that one should think of the E7 as the fifth of Am and, as such, play the A harmonic minor over the E7. Is that how you think of it? It seems strange to me because I don't think of that Am as a tonic minor but the ii of G. So does it make sense to play A harmonic minor there?Thanks!

The common vanilla progression is: I Maj7/ VIm7/ IIm7/ V7. But when you make the VIm7 a dominant chord (E7) and the IIm7 a minor triad (Am or Am6), you add the leading tone (G#), and imply a V7 (E7) to I min (Am) resolution, thus the harmonic minor (or melodic minor) rather than dorian or natural minor scale.

[ragman1]

Hi,
I was reading this book and it said that in the above progression, in G let's say: G-E7-Am-D7, that one should think of the E7 as the fifth of Am and, as such, play the A harmonic minor over the E7. Is that how you think of it? It seems strange to me because I don't think of that Am as a tonic minor but the ii of G. So does it make sense to play A harmonic minor there?
Thanks!

Absolutely, using A harmonic can sound a little as though you've gone into A minor. Personally I prefer using F melodic* because it resolves smoothly into the Am7 without risking the key change effect.

*F mel because you're essentially playing the E altered scale: E F G Ab Bb C D E.

You can also use A melodic minor if you like that sound. It has the F#.

1) A harmonic
2) A melodic
3) F melodic

[Tal_175]

Hi,
I was reading this book and it said that in the above progression, in G let's say: G-E7-Am-D7, that one should think of the E7 as the fifth of Am and, as such, play the A harmonic minor over the E7. Is that how you think of it? It seems strange to me because I don't think of that Am as a tonic minor but the ii of G. So does it make sense to play A harmonic minor there?
Thanks!

That's called secondary dominant (E7). They are all over the place in standards. Playing A harmonic minor over E7 (or E phrygian dominant) is the most "textbook" option. Note however that doesn't mean you play A harmonic minor over the Aminor. Am7-D7 is a ii-V as you also noted.

[Sam b]

Thanks for these answers!
And thanks for playing all those options, Ragman!
So I could also think about playing the E7 chords tones adding a b9, b5 and #5, right?
I have a hard time thinking about playing different scales on chords so I often try to think of adding some notes to the chords tones.

[AllanAllen]

I would think of E7 chord tones. I think arpeggios sound better than scales. At least for now.

[Mick-7]

Thanks for these answers!
And thanks for playing all those options, Ragman!
So I could also think about playing the E7 chords tones adding a b9, b5 and #5, right?
I have a hard time thinking about playing different scales on chords so I often try to think of adding some notes to the chords tones.

Yeah, I don't think much about scales anymore, just the chord tones, there are several scales that will work over E7/Amin.

But you'll want to consider which chord tones suit both chords, e.g., the b9th of E7 (F) is the b6th of Am, the #5th of E7 (C) is the 3rd of Am, etc., but if the chart says Am6, it implies F#, the 6th of the chord, the 9th of E7, and the 3rd of D7 which in this case follows the Am.

[ragman1]

So I could also think about playing the E7 chords tones adding a b9, b5 and #5, right?

Yes, or rather adjusting the notes so you have something to create a line with.

I have a hard time thinking about playing different scales on chords

You're not alone. Personally I tend to do it visually by seeing where I am on the fingerboard or using chord shapes as a basis. But probably everyone ends up with their own solution to it.

[rpjazzguitar]

I think this way.

You're in G tonal center.

But E7 has a G#, so you raise the G to a G#.

G tonal center has an F#. If the comping instrument plays an E9, then the F# will work. But, often enough, the comping instrument will play E7b9, in which case the F# will clash and F will sound better.

These choices correspond to melodic and harmonic minor. Many players think that way. I learned to think tonal center and chord tones. I think there are advantages to each.

[Christian Miller]

Hi,
I was reading this book and it said that in the above progression, in G let's say: G-E7-Am-D7, that one should think of the E7 as the fifth of Am and, as such, play the A harmonic minor over the E7. Is that how you think of it? It seems strange to me because I don't think of that Am as a tonic minor but the ii of G. So does it make sense to play A harmonic minor there?
Thanks!

Yes, absolutely.

Think of the Am as being a temporary tonic.

Boppers often play the harmonic minor there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ragman1]

Boppers often play the harmonic minor there.

Often... What do they play when they don't use the harmonic minor?

[ragman1]

Remember it's ultimately how it sounds that matters, not what is technically correct or even possible.

Everything should be viewed in the context of the tune itself, the tempo, the style used, and so on. Any particular set of notes can sound great over one kind of tune but not so hot over another. Options are always invaluable.

[Christian Miller]

Often... What do they play when they don't use the harmonic minor?

Sometimes they'll outline some arpeggio or something.

It's also quite common for Bird to swap out a bIII-7 over VI7. Which if you are a bit of a dweeb you could say gives a VI13b9 sound. I prefer to say that he saw that chord as a passing chord, and functionally VI7 and bIII-7 both move to II-7

Before Bird it was very common to use a 9b13 sound, more diatonic to the prevailing key. You hear people like Prez and Django do that a lot. You also see it standards melodies too - Out of Nowhere, East of the Sun etc.

[Christian Miller]

I discuss this stuff in these videos (among other things)

[ragman1]

Sometimes they'll outline some arpeggio or something.

It's also quite common for Bird to swap out a bIII-7 over VI7. Which if you are a bit of a dweeb you could say gives a VI13b9 sound. I prefer to say that he saw that chord as a passing chord, and functionally VI7 and bIII-7 both move to II-7

Before Bird it was very common to use a 9b13 sound, more diatonic to the prevailing key. You hear people like Prez and Django do that a lot. You also see it standards melodies too - Out of Nowhere, East of the Sun etc.

I held off on D melodic for the OP thinking it might be a step too far (together with dim stuff and w/tone, etc). But let's see what he makes of your vids.

[pamosmusic]

I held off on D melodic for the OP thinking it might be a step too far (together with dim stuff and w/tones, etc). But let's see what he makes of your vids.

Why D melodic minor?

[ragman1]

13b9 sound on a dominant. It's less trouble than harmonic major and/or diminished.

over E7:

E F G A B C# D E

R b9 b3 4 5 6/13 b7 R

[Sam b]

I guess I like the idea of thinking about E713b9 rather than thinking about playing a scale in a different key. It's a similar problem I have with upper extensions. I find it a lot easier to think about the relation of the notes to the chord at hand rather than playing a major or minor arpeggio starting on a different note. So "play the 9, 11, and 13 of C7" rather than "play a D minor arpeggio over C."

Ragman, you don't get the G# in that case, though. Isn't that a note you'd want to emphasize?

[ragman1]

Hello, Sam.

I was going to mention that but it was getting complicated. To be honest, I don't use the D mel a lot. The b9 is nice but I find the C# a bit vanilla. The G# is good and if I do use D mel I try to remember to flat the A to get the G#. Otoh, the nat G is a blue note and doesn't worry me too much.

The 13b9 is a pretty modern sound and if I really want to emphasise it I find the best way is to use the chord: x5666x, which is quite discordant.

So, all in all, I much prefer the F melodic. As I said, it resolves really well into the Am and does me nicely :-)

[Sam b]

oh,that looks like a very cool chord:

F
C#
G#
D
right? so

b2
6
3
b7?
Thanks!

[Mick-7]

13b9 sound on a dominant. It's less trouble than harmonic major and/or diminished.

over E7: E F G A B C# D E

R b9 b3 4 5 6/13 b7 R

The 4th/11th (A) is liable to conflict with the accompaniment, especially if it's a guitarist, because they'll be playing a 7b9 or 7#9 - that's
3 semitones in a row (G-G#-A), and 4 if they add the b5th (Bb).

Diminished is more appropriate for E13b9/#9/#11(b5) = E-F-G-G#-A#(Bb)-B-C#-D.

oh,that looks like a very cool chord: F-C#-G#-D

It's derived from the aforementioned dim. scale so you can move it up/down in b3rds, Barry Galbraith, for one, was fond of doing that.

[pamosmusic]

The 4th/11th (A) is liable to conflict with the accompaniment, especially if it's a guitarist, because they'll be playing a 7b9 or 7#9 - that's
3 semitones in a row (G-G#-A), and 4 if they add the b5th (Bb).

Diminished is more appropriate for E13b9/#9/#11(b5) = E-F-G-G#-A#(Bb)-B-C#-D.

Can we agree to move past this?

[Mick-7]

Can we agree to move past this?

What, scales vs chords? In the case of the dim. scale, it's harmonic uses exceed its single note applications.

[pamosmusic]

What, scales vs chords?

the whole thing about the fourth “clashing with the chord” in a single note line

[Mick-7]

the whole thing about the fourth “clashing with the chord” in a single note line

You don't think the note A would clash with an E7b5#9 chord? (E-G-G#-Bb-D).

I mean, if one is not concerned with any note clashing with any chord, this entire discussion is pointless.