I-VI7-ii-V7 question

[ragman1]

I think this is what people say when they want to sound a bit hipper than they are.

Well, it's nice that you think I'm already hip

[ragman1]

Cont'd...

Let's say the progression was Bm7 - Bbo - Am7 - D7. Do we take the Bbo as an F#7b9 and play B harm over it? Or A H/W dim?

How do we resolve it to the Am7?

[Christian Miller]

Cont'd...

Let's say the progression was Bm7 - Bbo - Am7 - D7. Do we take the Bbo as an F#7b9 and play B harm over it? Or A H/W dim?

How do we resolve it to the Am7?

Either sounds good.

If I don’t want to make a big thing of it, I usually like to express a F# triad with an added b9, which could be either.

The A-7 is then moved to via relevant voiceleading.

However the A-7 is really just a suspension of the D7. So we can ignore it functionally and just consider a move Bbo7 —> D7

So here we are tonicising the D7 in fact. There’s a Barry harris way I’d do this, But most of the time I’d just do the F# triad thing. Sounds nice!


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[ragman1]

Fair enough :-)

I'm inclined to cheat and use Bb mel. But don't tell anyone.

[pamosmusic]

Cont'd...

Let's say the progression was Bm7 - Bbo - Am7 - D7. Do we take the Bbo as an F#7b9 and play B harm over it? Or A H/W dim?

How do we resolve it to the Am7?

Well, for what it's worth, I might do a few things, but none of that has to do with whether or not I call it a "tonicization" or whatever. I might also do those things over the D7 going to G, or whatever. Or a Go7 going back to Gmaj7.

[ragman1]

"tonicization"

Actually, no one else has used that word yet. Quite interesting because it means making the Am sound as though it's the tonic when it's not. But that was the OP's confusion because it's definitely not the tonic in his G progression.

I might also do those things over the D7 going to G, or whatever.

Gloriously vague :-)

Or a Go7 going back to Gmaj7.

Well, Bbo is also Go but it's supposed to go to Am7. What am I missing? An F#o would give a D7b9 sound...

[pamosmusic]

Actually, no one else has used that word yet. Quite interesting because it means making the Am sound as though it's the tonic when it's not. But that was the OP's confusion because it's definitely not the tonic in his G progression.

Um

Okay, you used the term “temporary modulation” … if anything, theorists would consider that something of a stronger term.

So, do elaborate.

or don’t.

The point is still the same … in practice, this does not matter

[charlieparker]

Had a lesson over 10 years ago with PB and he was big into the soloing with chord shapes you already know thing. He also said fuck scales fwiw. Drove him around a bit and got to listen to some albums together was worried someone would rear end me and destroy his Zeidler.

Christian used the term harmonic fingerings and I'm wondering more if that is a good name for soloing where you basically just play notes from a chord grip maybe with a few additional notes nearby. Kind of like Caged but even more localized.

I think Wes, Charlie Christian, and even Joe Pass used approaches like this.

[ragman1]

Um

Okay, you used the term “temporary modulation” … if anything, theorists would consider that something of a stronger term.

So, do elaborate.

or don’t.

The point is still the same … in practice, this does not matter

Apparently there are different definitions. Some say a modulation is a significant change to a new key. Others say tonicization is only a short temporary one, such as we have here. So your use of tonicization for the example here is correct, or at least not wrong.

Anyway, this is what I'd do with the Bbo example. So far, anyway. Not very hip, I'm afraid

B harm
Bb melodic
A W/H dim
Go arp

[pamosmusic]

Apparently there are different definitions. Some say a modulation is a significant change to a new key. Others say tonicization is only a short temporary one, such as we have here. So your use of tonicization for the example here is correct, or at least not wrong.

I strive for “at least not wrong.”

[ragman1]

in practice, this does not matter

I'm not sure what you mean by that. You mean just play anything?

[Lionelsax]

Simply staying in C major then adding colour tones that underline the chords then adding others that make think of substitutions.

Em Eb7 D- C#7
C C#dim D- G7

On this kind of things, playing in C major (if you select the right notes) can sound like a kind of magic.
Add some random (or not) chromatism, a lot of theorists will say it's wrong even if you stole it to a big name.

Lionel ! Stop it !

[ragman1]

Lionel ! Stop it !

Lionel, play it! Anybody can talk.

[kris]

Anyone can play, but everyone must use their ears.

[Lionelsax]

Lionel, play it! Anybody can talk.

Yes, it appears here on every end of the chord progression.
This standard is really an obsession even if I'm not an alcoholic but it took me time to connect the dots.
It's an "old" video.
Random ends...

[pamosmusic]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. You mean just play anything?

For the love of god. I mean that whether you call this E7 a modulation or a temporary tonicization or nothing at all makes no difference for how you play it.

[ragman1]

Jeez, is that all.

[ragman1]

Yes, it appears here on every end of the chord progression.
This standard is really an obsession even if I'm not an alcoholic but it took me time to connect the dots.
It's an "old" video.

Thanks. Yes, that one was 3 years ago! I see what you're saying. That was the OP's idea too, to add other notes to chord tones. Are you still doing that today or have you changed your method?

By the way, have you seen this?

[Lionelsax]

Thanks. Yes, that one was 3 years ago! I see what you're saying. That was the OP's idea too, to add other notes to chord tones. Are you still doing that today or have you changed your method?

By the way, have you seen this?

No, I just play...

I play, alone, with people... Duets, trios, whatever and it gets better.

[Christian Miller]

The only second chord of the song for me is Am7b5/Eb. I will bore on about this chord endlessly because it is gorgeous. I mean why should it sound so good? It’s just a iim7b5 of the Gm in inversion, and yet, instant pathos.

Do not play Eb7. This is not Dixieland, pal. None of that rumpty tum nonsense thank you.

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[Lionelsax]

Oscar Peterson doesn't play it right.

[ragman1]

I don't play the second chord, I just leave a big gap.

[Lionelsax]

Five pages to talk about I Got Rhythm and turnarounds...
I complain about it but I participated into that flood with something that doesn't help anyone.

[joe2758]

I play one of those dixiland banjo tremelos there

[Christian Miller]

Oscar Peterson doesn't play it right.

Nope


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