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Originally Posted by Sam b
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11-07-2024 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Plenty, but significantly fewer than the “someone tell me what book to get” or “how do you use Mickey Baker” genres.
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Pity the OP - he just wants some crumbs.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
A lot depends on some kind of innate ability, too. Whatever one plays goes into the brain and is assimilated. It's not something that can be hurried or forced through sheer willpower. It all happens under the surface, as it were, and matures slowly. Like a ripening fruit.
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Originally Posted by Sam b
What's the next thing after the E7 - Am - D7 - G exercise?
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Quality crumbs, Allan. Some folks here baking cakes
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A varied diet is good
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Originally Posted by joe2758
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Originally Posted by Sam b
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I definitely play the b9 over the E7 and like that sound a lot. And yes, it's a short E7 in a turn around so there's not a lot of time to play a lot of notes. I just didn't realize that in that context some people think about the Am as a temporary tonal shift.
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It is a temporary tonal shift, no question about it; the G# of the E7 creates it, especially with the b9. But the Am isn't the tonic of the tune so it has a dual function.
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Originally Posted by Sam b
I think that’s where Christians idea of “getting to ii” is useful. It’s not really that people treat this like a big modulation or tonicization or whatever, but just that it’s a point of tension that resolves at Am and that tension could be a lot of things … or like Mr B says, you might just skip it if you don’t think you need it.
For my part .. is it a temporary tonicization of Am? Of course! Am I worried about it as such when I’m playing it? My god, no.
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But I wouldn't play an F# over the E7b9... Over a plain E7, yes. But 7b9, no. Personally speaking. Not if I could help it anyway :-)
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How do I think of it? Tonal shift? Not sure I do.
But the truth is look through the tunes and you’ll see many example of things that are a series of diatonic chords with tension chords setting them up.
So for example
Cmaj7 C#o7 D-7 D#o7 E-7
Is just the first three chords of the key with tension chords - dim7s a half step below in this case.
I wonder if one thing people might not realise it’s a good idea is to always practice a chord with its dominant, weaving in and out. Use whatever dominant you want - or even some other kind of passing chord - but get used to weaving in and out of the chord dynamically, not just sitting on it.
I tend to do this even when playing modal vamps.
Sometimes this is already baked into a scale. The harmonic minor scale is just what happens when you add a minor triad together the V7b9. The harmonic major is what happens when you add a major triad to a V7b9 chord. Lester Youngs tickle toe is a great example of tune written that way
And if we add the 6th we have the Barry Harris scales.
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
If you have GM7 - G#o - Am7 then that G#o is exactly the same as an E7b9 inversion (G#FBD) and G#o is the leading chord of A harmonic minor.
Don't see the issue, really.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
The reason I don’t hear it as a tonal shift is because these kinds of secondary dominant chords are so common in relatively diatonic music that they don’t feel like structural key changes. Especially if the chords don’t hang around.
So if pushed I would say that the A section of Confirmation is kind of in one key, while the B section modulates properly.
But to play the changes you want to express that move to Dm and Bb (and to G7 or Gm) in the A section, so you will play them. That said you might not play every chord. Sometimes players are really general, they don’t express those secondary dominants.
So yeah, different people may well look at it differently.
I remember a discussion about whether the IV chord in just friends counts as a key change. I’m still not sure.
But the main thing is that we can play just friends. This doesn’t really affect things.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
The reason I don’t hear it as a tonal shift is because these kinds of secondary dominant chords are so common in relatively diatonic music that they don’t feel like structural key changes. Especially if the chords don’t hang around.
This whole thing isn't really about the Am but the function of the E7 in that progression.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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I can't duck that one.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
For example I don’t call it a “temporary tonicization” because that’s how I hear it or whatever. For me, hearing stuff is way more abstract than that … home, away, crunchy, pretty, dissonant, consonant, restless, resolved.
I call it a “temporary tonicization” because that’s what they called it in the first jazz theory book I read, so that’s what I call it.
The operative question is … what would you do differently if it weren’t?
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
But it also relates to single lines.
When a bass player plays a lower chromatic neighbour on 4 before a chord they are making a linear ‘tonicisation’.
When you play an enclosure on a chord tone, you are playing a tonicisation of that note.
Usually it’s half steps. A dominant chord moving to the I chord in a major key has two and those notes clearly establish the tonality along with the target triad. In minor we only have one, so if we add in the 9th (which is usually flat in minor) this adds an extra pull. And that’s what we see with this harmonic minor scale. If we use a natural 9th as was common pre bop, the sense of pull and of a temporary key change is lessened.
In jazz (and classical music over the past 200 years or so) it is customary to add in more and more of these half steps. This is done by altering the dominant.
In the example above they tune the G7 into a G7b9 because it adds another half step - another melodic tonicisation of the C chord.
And then you have chords and scales which are effectively tonicisation. The altered scale is a set of enclosures around a chord a fifth higher.
If that makes any sense.
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