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ding, ding, ding. we have a winner.
Originally Posted by Mick-7
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11-05-2024 01:19 PM
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It's not what you do it's the way that you do it.
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Barry Harris's 7b5, diminished scale for E ... Originally Posted by Mick-7
E F# G# A Bb C D D#
Just for an example, though I suppose that's a natural 2.
Point being that a good melody forgives all sins. If you transcribe literally anything, you will see natural fours over dominant chords of all stripes, and dominant lines of all stripes over dominant chords of all other stripes. The weirder it is, the more practice it takes to make a good melody.
Which would be why things like "E triad with added note" or "A harmonic minor" have been top of the list for things to play over the chord.
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I have never gotten around to studying Barry Harris' system, are you saying he would recommend playing that scale over a E7b9 or E7#9 chord? It would obviously suit a 7b5/#5 chord (modified whole tone scale). Some rules are fine, until you no longer need them. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I don't know man. He doesn't really talk in those terms terribly often from what I can tell. Originally Posted by Mick-7
But for real, just transcribe a blues.
We use b3 over a dominant 9 chord.
We use #4 over a regular dominant chord.
We use regular 4 over whatever.
We use 2 and b3 over a V chord with a major third in it.
We use iv over a IV7 chord.
I'm not saying that the OP should be doing all this stuff. He should obviously stick to those first couple responses he got until he's comfortable. But I am saying that the whole "hmmm I don't know if that avoid note is a good idea" thing confuses the issue an awful lot and presents beginners with a picture of improvising that is not based on the actual stuff people play in the recordings they like.
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E7 Am E7 Am E7 Am E7
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I’m exactly the opposite haha Originally Posted by Sam b
I suppose it doesn’t matter if you play the sounds. But the chord sub way of looking at things is almost certainly older than the chord scale/extensions way of looking at things.
There’s also a danger here in getting too stuck on the vertical thing because not all passing chord/weak side subs relate to chord scale choices. But some do, and this is one.
It’s the Peter Bernstein thing -I want to get from iiim7 to iim7. How do I get there? How do I move?
A lot of modern pedagogy doesn’t differentiate moving harmony from colouristic harmony.
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E7b9b13 is E G# B D F (A) and C.
It probably sounds better in typical situations without the A. Which leads to the usual discussion about avoid notes, if they exist. Or, my pet project, to make all those seven note scales with an avoid note into 6 note scales with no avoid note.
Back to the original chord above. It's an E major triad with a Dm7 on top.
Fifth mode A harmonic minor, if that makes it easier.
I end up seeing 7b9 and realizing that it's diminished adjacent. I also end up thinking about the tritone 9th chord. So I might play rootless Bb9, voiced, often, D Ab C F, which is b7 3 b13 and b9
Or, I might think "E7 with some alterations".
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I agree that passing chords/weak beat movements don't always come from chord scales. Even the extended systems like 6th dim scale that incorporate diminished movements into the scale don't cover it all. For example some of the movements BH showed involved the third diminished chord outside of a given 6th diminished scale. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I don't think chord sub approach relate well to passing chords either. A lot of things work as weak beat movements so it's hard to have a neat vertical conception of it whether that conception is based on chord-scales or chord subs. I tend to view these movements contrapuntally. That is connecting the bass, melody and middle voices of the starting chord with the target chord in a variety of ways.
When the movement is "inside" however I prefer the vertical approach (aka parallel, chord-scale, extensions etc). When I play D - C - A- F over G7, I don't hear the note C as the 7th of Dminor but I hear it as the sus4 of G7. So I prefer visualizing the fretboard in the way I hear the notes.
Is there a source that describes Peter Bernstein's approach to this? Did you make a video about his approach to harmonic movements? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Not sure that’s a method or anything but something you can glean from just listening to him a lot. I think it’s a natural outgrowth of his very tune-oriented approach to learning theory. Well the Blakey band puts a bIII7 here and Bird plays a biii dim, and both go to ii … therefore … Originally Posted by Tal_175
A lot of overlap there with the way Barry talks about harmony, I guess.
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There’s some videos online. He was a very simple concept really. He wants to get from A to B, and comes up with interesting ways to do it using simple grips and a bit of imagination. Originally Posted by Tal_175
For example if we are going Cm7 to Bbm7 the simplest way to connect them on guitar is simply to interpolate a Bm7.
Parallel motion.
If you use a standard Bm11 grip you get a tasty bit of chromatic contrary motion.
Now you just take these ideas and roll them out into arpeggios with good rhythm (right out of the shapes) and you have cool lines.
You aren’t thinking so much about notes on chords, just connections and movements.
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Somewhat depends on the space between the first chord and the second. Half a bar, a whole bar, more? Or even less, like a couple of notes? Certainly one note's not an issue.
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A few of us like to respond to the question asked by the original poster, which in this instance was: "Why would you play the harmonic minor scale over an A minor chord?" As usual, most respondents chose to overlook the question and opine instead on other topics that have been discussed here ad nauseam, such as: what they'd play if the chord(s) were different, what other scales could be played over the chords, why there's really no such thing as an "avoid note," etc., etc. The end result is more of the same advice that we've all heard before, and that few here would be able to apply to making music (least of all those who asked the questions).
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1. Due respect, but “you might want to avoid that avoid note” is not some revolutionary advice either and has also been said 150,000,000 on this forum and elsewhere … and has the added benefit of being immediately rendered nonsense by music in the real world. Originally Posted by Mick-7
A few of us like to respond to the question asked by the original poster, which in this instance was: "Why would you play the harmonic minor scale over an A minor chord?" As usual, most respondents chose to overlook the question and opine instead on other topics that have been discussed here ad nauseam, such as: what they'd play if the chord(s) were different, what other scales could be played over the chords, why there's really no such thing as an "avoid note," etc., etc. The end result is more of the same advice that we've all heard before, and that few here would be able to apply to making music (least of all those who asked the questions).
2. The question was answered point blank in the first response, so are we not allowed to follow tangents into other areas … or … ?
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Thats almost certainly true, but I think in practice you’re not often going to get these sort of passing chords of durations longer than a measure. And at even a medium tempo, you can get away with that. Originally Posted by ragman1
Always worth remembering that tempo and duration trade off though.
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Lots of stuff here @Tal175
He doesn't comp this way for everyone. I get the feeling he knows Jordan well enough to push him harmonically. He didn't do this with me (except on the melody).
Some of the stuff is off the chain. But it all relates to the basic movement concept.
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Not sure it was answered, the digression to tangents began immediately, relevant related questions that were not discussed would be like, "why was Am rather than Am7 written on the chart, what does E7 to Am or Am6 on a chart imply that E7(alt) to Am7 does not?" Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I know all that but nevertheless I'd prefer something we can discuss realistically. I'm trying to think of a tune that has consecutive m7's and nothing in between. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Let's say that situation exists and the answer is, for argument's sake, half a bar. Personally I'd go for a diminished sound (I've just played it as a test) or a chromatic one if a higher tempo was involved.
Situations where you get iii/VI7 - ii/V7 are plentiful. If you're still playing the minor over the first VI7 then both those options work.
To be honest, I've done this so often without any sort of problem that I'm wondering what the fuss is about!
NB: And if you're only talking about comping chords (not notes) then even more so. Stick in the chromatic minor. Totally obvious answer.
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Well it’s either a 10 page theory fest or ‘go listen to some records and get back to me.’
(Or both)
That’s jazz, baby!
Really the question should be addressed to the greats, not answered second hand by us lot.
You got ears on your head?
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Natural 4 is also in the pentatonic scale we all started with. I see no need to avoid something we’ve all been using since we picked up a guitar.
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I tried to extract a micro-lesson from this recording, which is worth studying. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Suppose the changes are Am7 D7 Gmaj7 Cmaj7.
Instead, one might play Am7 D7 Abm7 Db7 Gm7 C7
Sounds good. What happened?
Previously, I'd have thought of Gmaj7 as the resolution and Cmaj7 as a movement to the IV chord.
Instead, the Gmaj7 to Cmaj7 part of the progression is implied with the actual chords changing from major to dominant and then putting in some chromatic ii Vs. If the next chord is F#m7b5, both ways work, to my ear.
So, this raises a question. Can this be applied to ii V I in a lot of situations?
So, I tried it for a couple of simple tunes. First two chords of All of Me. I found I could start with C, but after a couple of beats I went to chromatic descending ii Vs starting with Cm7 ending up at the A7. But, that's not exactly the same situation. Although it sort of worked.
I then tried Wave, the part with Am7 D7 leading to Gmaj7 and then Gm6. I replaced the G with a ii V starting on Abm7. Sort of worked, but my ear preferred the original Gmaj7.
So, not much progress yet, but, I do like the sound of harmonic motion and I'm always unhappy when I can't think of how to apply the concept. Maybe this will help a little.
That is, the idea of allowing a resolution point to be implied while you power through it with motion.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 11-07-2024 at 06:56 PM.
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I think you're just finding something to do. This isn't a problem.
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Had a lesson over 10 years ago with PB and he was big into the soloing with chord shapes you already know thing. He also said fuck scales fwiw. Drove him around a bit and got to listen to some albums together was worried someone would rear end me and destroy his Zeidler.
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Ha! Originally Posted by bediles
my PB story is the same as most other people’s.
We finish playing a song …
PB: “ummm yeah man … okay some nice stuff … [scratches nose] … but uh … are you sure you really know that tune?”
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I don't trust people who say that kind of thing, no matter who they are. You need scales but it depends how they're used, especially in conjunction with chords and chord shapes. Originally Posted by bediles
Usually those who say don't bother with scales are people who know their scales very well but use them in a different way. Not the beginner's way of learning patterns and then wonder how to connect one pattern to another, but seeing them as connected to certain chord shapes related to certain keys. Then, using that, produce lines that connect very well.
PB is very, very good at chords and his comping ability is virtually instant and way above most peoples' level. And if you check out his transcriptions you'll see that the melodic lines he plays over the same chord in different songs and keys aren't random, they correspond to the key. To do that, you must know the key, major or minor, and know the notes required. It's not that he sees a chord like D7 or F and just plays the same thing over it regardless, it fits the song. You can't do that unless you know your notes.
But it's also possible that bediles (sorry!) didn't understand what he meant completely.
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