Metric modulation question

[rpjazzguitar]

I think I've got this figured out, but I wonder if there's a better way.

Suppose you're in 2/4 time and you come to a bar of 3/8.

While in 2/4 suppose you're tapping your foot in quarter notes.

When you come to the 3/8 bar, consider the definition "three beats to the measure and an eighth note gets one beat". '

When I first encountered this situation, I initially thought that the "beat" was the way I was tapping my foot. If that were true, which it's not, I would tap three times at the same tempo for the 3/8 bar and call those taps eighth notes. The result is that I'd play the bar for twice as long as it's supposed to be played.

But, in fact, the quarter note stays the same. The issue seems to be the definition of "beat".

One way to think of it is to tap your foot, for the 3/8 bar, in eighth notes -- which means you double the tempo of your foot -- and tap three times at this speed. This may be the best way to think of it, but it isn't what I did at first.

Instead, I thought of 3/8 as if it was 1.5/4. It seemed easier to think about the original quarter note and recognize that the 3/8 bar was "one-and-one-half quarter notes". Foot goes tap tap quick-tap.

This is a relatively straightforward metric modulation (if that's the correct usage of this term). I've seen more complicated charts, e.g, where half note triplets suddenly turn into quarter notes, or something like that.

I've never had any training in this. How is it usually taught? What is the best way to approach this kind of situation?

[James W]

This is a relatively straightforward metric modulation (if that's the correct usage of this term).

When the quarter note remains consistent, then it's not metric modulation, as far as I know. However what you then describe -

I've seen more complicated charts, e.g, where half note triplets suddenly turn into quarter notes, or something like that.

... is an example of metric modulation, because that is a tuplet unit becoming the new, non-tuplet rhythmic unit if that makes sense.

I've never had any training in this. How is it usually taught? What is the best way to approach this kind of situation?

Me neither. Western pedagogy on this aspect of music is pretty inchoate. But it features lots and in very sophisticated ways in the music of people like Elliott Carter. I generally try to feel these kinds of things, but I am far from being an expert. It would be worth looking into something like Indian Konakol for a good system of rhythmic training.

[pamosmusic]

I think absent any notation to the contrary, I would assume quarter equals quarter … so a bar of eight eighth notes and a bar of three eighth notes. If the big beat stays the same you should see something like quarter note equals dotted quarter.

Right?

I ran into this stuff from time to time in guitar orchestra or some twentieth century solo classical stuff, but honestly never really since then.

[Tal_175]

This video provides a good explanation of how to count mixed time signatures (just jump to 14:20 if you want skip right to the counting):

[rpjazzguitar]

I think James W. is correct about the definition of "metric modulation". Thank you.

With real metric modulation, I guess, you see things like quarter = dotted quarter. Which I think means you continue tapping your foot the same but now you're tapping dotted quarters. Is that much right?

In my limited experience with this sort of thing, even good readers can get confused.

A big band chart I have to play occasionally starts in 8/8, then goes to 4/4 with a notation of "double time". Nobody seems to know what the difference between 8/8 and 4/4 is supposed to sound like. Then, the instruction about "double time" is even more confusing.

[rpjazzguitar]

This video provides a good explanation of how to count mixed time signatures (just jump to 14:20 if you want skip right to the counting):

Thanks! Very helpful! Wish I'd seen it years ago.

[James W]

I think James W. is correct about the definition of "metric modulation". Thank you.

No worries.

With real metric modulation, I guess, you see things like quarter = dotted quarter. Which I think means you continue tapping your foot the same but now you're tapping dotted quarters. Is that much right?

Yes.

In my limited experience with this sort of thing, even good readers can get confused.

A big band chart I have to play occasionally starts in 8/8, then goes to 4/4 with a notation of "double time". Nobody seems to know what the difference between 8/8 and 4/4 is supposed to sound like. Then, the instruction about "double time" is even more confusing.

Yes, good readers can get confused, but often perhaps because of the not-so-good or -clear writing of what it is the reader is trying to read!

[Mick-7]

I took a few lessons from a marimba player who studied with Ali Akbar Khan. In South Indian classical music, they use a vocal solfeggio system (called solkatu) to count polyrhythms, they have many different solkatu syllables but I'll keep this simple.

You subdivide the beats and stack them. For 3/8 over 2/4, you would divide the 8ths into units of two, and 4ths into units of 3, as shown below (hopefully they will line up properly). Sing the 3/8 rhythm over the 2/4 beat - or vice-versa.

------Ta-ki--Ta-ki-Ta-ki--|
3/8:-o--o--o--o--o--o--|
Bt---1........2.......3.......|
2/4:-o--o--o--o--o--o--|
Bt....1............2............|

[rpjazzguitar]

I took a few lessons from a marimba player who studied with Al Akbar Khan. In South Indian classical music, they use a vocal solfeggio system (called solkatu) to count polyrhythms, they have many different solkatu syllables but I'll keep this simple.

You subdivide the beats and stack them. For 3/8 over 2/4, you would divide the 8ths into units of two, and 4ths into units of 3, as shown below (hopefully they will line up properly)

------Ta-ki--Ta-ki-Ta-ki--|
3/8:-o--o--o--o--o--o--|
Bt---1........2.......3.......|
2/4:-o--o--o--o--o--o--|
Bt....1............2............|

The strategies used in Indian music are clearly more than relevant.

I would mention that this example is three over two. Both bars last the same amount of time, defined by 6 syllables.

The example I gave is actually a bar of two and then a shortened bar. The 3/8 bar just lops off, truncates, or otherwise eliminates an eighth note.

Or have I missed something?

[Mick-7]

The strategies used in Indian music are clearly more than relevant.

I would mention that this example is three over two. Both bars last the same amount of time, defined by 6 syllables.

The example I gave is actually a bar of two and then a shortened bar. The 3/8 bar just lops off, truncates, or otherwise eliminates an eighth note.

Or have I missed something?

Guess I misunderstood your question... So you lost half a beat? (1/8th). You do not change the tempo in that 3/8 bar? (slow down).

[rpjazzguitar]

Guess I misunderstood your question... So you lost half a beat? (1/8th). You do not change the tempo in that 3/8 bar? (slow down).

It's a two bar piece of a bigger tune. One bar of 2/4 and one bar of 3/8. If you count up the notes, you get two quarters in the 2/4 bar and one-quarter+one-eighth (i.e., 3/8) in the second bar. That's all the chart tells you.

The first time I saw this I didn't know if that meant the tempo changes or not. The notation struck me as ambiguous. I wondered, "do I keep tapping my foot at the same speed but now that tap is an eighth note?" Or, "do I tap twice as fast"?

I later came to understand that the quarter note is the same in both bars. But, the second bar is shorter. It's missing an eighth note.

The video linked earlier in the thread gives a good strategy. Find the biggest denominator in any of the bars (in this case, an 8) and count in that division, i.e. eighth notes, in this case.
So, the bar of 2/4 has 4 of them and the bar of 3/8 has three of them. If you were to tap your foot in eighth notes it would all be straightforward.

If you tap in quarter notes your foot taps twice in each bar.
But, you have to start the next bar before that second quarter note in the 3/8 bar is finished. The next bar after the 3/8 bar will feel like it starts an eighth early.

If you tap the 2/4 bar in quarters then you could double the tapping speed for 3 notes and then go back to the original tempo for quarters.

I'm a foot tapper. It occurs to me that, in this situation, it would have been a little less confusing if I wasn't.

I also found it helpful, at one point, to think of it as 1.5/4. A beat-and-a-half of the same quarter note pulse as the previous bar.

[Mick-7]

The video linked earlier in the thread gives a good strategy. Find the biggest denominator in any of the bars (in this case, an 8) and count in that division, i.e. eighth notes, in this case.

That's the basic strategy behind the Indian system, divide each beat into micro-beats to compare and count them, and the solkatu helps you remember the different rhythms, change the rhythmic tempo, etc.

[Christian Miller]

I think I've got this figured out, but I wonder if there's a better way.

Suppose you're in 2/4 time and you come to a bar of 3/8.

While in 2/4 suppose you're tapping your foot in quarter notes.

When you come to the 3/8 bar, consider the definition "three beats to the measure and an eighth note gets one beat". '

When I first encountered this situation, I initially thought that the "beat" was the way I was tapping my foot. If that were true, which it's not, I would tap three times at the same tempo for the 3/8 bar and call those taps eighth notes. The result is that I'd play the bar for twice as long as it's supposed to be played.

But, in fact, the quarter note stays the same. The issue seems to be the definition of "beat".

One way to think of it is to tap your foot, for the 3/8 bar, in eighth notes -- which means you double the tempo of your foot -- and tap three times at this speed. This may be the best way to think of it, but it isn't what I did at first.

Instead, I thought of 3/8 as if it was 1.5/4. It seemed easier to think about the original quarter note and recognize that the 3/8 bar was "one-and-one-half quarter notes". Foot goes tap tap quick-tap.

This is a relatively straightforward metric modulation (if that's the correct usage of this term). I've seen more complicated charts, e.g, where half note triplets suddenly turn into quarter notes, or something like that.

I've never had any training in this. How is it usually taught? What is the best way to approach this kind of situation?

Konnakol is increasingly popular for rhythmic training. That’s what Mick 7 was talking about Konnakol refers to the system, Solkatu to the solfege itself - the sounds.

I’ve taken classes in this with a percussionist as have many of my peers. It’s very useful and most Western Rhythms are straightforward to break down with this tool set. Odd time, metric modulations, polyrhythms, you name it, there’s a framework we can use.

My teacher Asaf Sirkis has a YouTube channel that goes into great detail with systematic lessons.

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[Mick-7]

Odd time, metric modulations, polyrhythms, you name it, there’s a framework we can use.

Also, accenting different beats in a meter can make it sound like you've changed meters when you haven't.

The marimba player I took lessons with, Jim Loveless, played with Mickey Hart (Grateful Dead drummer) et. al., in an all percussion instruments band named the Diga Rhythm Devils, here is their album - and they also played on the soundtrack for Coppola's film, Apocalypse Now.

Diga - YouTube

[rpjazzguitar]

From what little I know, it seems like a great system.

You still have to figure out what the ink on the chart is trying to tell you. Once you've decoded it, Konnakol would be a good way to count it. As is looking for the highest denominator and counting in that division, at least for this relatively simple example. My impression is that Konnakol is useful in many other applications.

Thinking a bit further about the three bars: 2/4 to 3/8, back to 2/4, there is an issue about how to tap your foot, if you're going to tap at all.

I've gotten comfortable with:

A bar of 2/4 with two taps. Then a bar of 3/8 with two taps. Then that last tap lasts only an eighth note and you quickly tap again for beat 1 of bar 3.

The same sort of thing happens in 7/4. You can tap on 1 3 5 and 7. Every other quarter note. But, the next tap (beat 1 of the next bar) occurs on the very next quarter note. So, it feels like you're starting the next bar a beat early -- which, you are, if you were expecting two bars of 4/4. This can become unconscious with enough practice.

[Christian Miller]

From what little I know, it seems like a great system.

You still have to figure out what the ink on the chart is trying to tell you. Once you've decoded it, Konnakol would be a good way to count it. As is looking for the highest denominator and counting in that division, at least for this relatively simple example. My impression is that Konnakol is useful in many other applications.

Thinking a bit further about the three bars: 2/4 to 3/8, back to 2/4, there is an issue about how to tap your foot, if you're going to tap at all.

I've gotten comfortable with:

A bar of 2/4 with two taps. Then a bar of 3/8 with two taps. Then that last tap lasts only an eighth note and you quickly tap again for beat 1 of bar 3.

The same sort of thing happens in 7/4. You can tap on 1 3 5 and 7. Every other quarter note. But, the next tap (beat 1 of the next bar) occurs on the very next quarter note. So, it feels like you're starting the next bar a beat early -- which, you are, if you were expecting two bars of 4/4. This can become unconscious with enough practice.

We don't tap our foot in Konnakol, instead you indicate the meter (or Taala) on your hands. So for a two you could use a clap on the front of the hand and on the back - clap, wave. For 3, use front, back back. Or clap, wave wave.

For example, Adi Talam (8 count, similar to two bars of 4/4)

When I play guitar I use vocal Solkatu to keep track of the meter. So if I was playing in 5, for instance, I would say 'Ta di ga na thon' as I play. (I suppose you could say Hippopotamus, or University - or the fusion friendly alternative - 'Scientology'.)

I suppose you could work out a foot tapping scheme that achieves the same effect.

I find this INCREDIBLY useful - more so than the Solkattu itself, because it gives you a way to physically count and keep track of the one.

I'll see if I can make a short video to demonstrate what I mean, how I would adapt Konnakol tools for this type of modulation.

[Mick-7]

We don't tap our foot in Konnakol, instead you indicate the meter (or Taala) on your hands. So for a two you could use a clap on the front of the hand and on the back - clap, wave. For 3, use front, back back. Or clap, wave wave.

Or just tap your fingers, different ones for each meter.

[rpjazzguitar]

I watched the video and learned something.

Drummers sometimes teach kids rhythms with words. One I know uses fruit. pear is a quarter note. Mango is two eighths. banana is a triplet. watermelon is four eighths. like that.

One band I was in years ago, with that drummer, did some breaks by specifying fruit and rests. Worked great, easier to remember than numbers.

Brazilians often use some syllables for the 16ths in 2/4 that can be articulated at high tempo, starting with a sibilant syllable and some k's or something. I've never been able to do it. My approach is to turn tricky rhythms into scatting drum parts (or so I tell myself). So, I have some memorized for things like hitting the last 16th of a 2/4 measure. babadooba/dabadoobah. For the last eighth, baba/doobah. Like that.

One thing appealing about the Konnacol is that it gives each of the beats an individual identity. One of the challenges of reading certain syncopated music is nailing things like 2nd and 4th sixteenth notes of a beat in 4/4. An organizational strategy makes it easier.

[Christian Miller]

Or just tap your fingers, different ones for each meter.

Yep, that works too.

You don’t have to use the traditional Taalam, because you are adapting the stuff to western music anyway.

I just use the Clap, pinky, third, second finger for 4/4, like the first half of Adi Talam.

It’s nice having the clap on beat one.


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[TearItDown]

It's funny that your thread has now shifted to konnakol. Carnatic rhythms are great, but that is not what you need in order to master metric modulation (true metric modulation is not even an element of fundamental Carnatic rhythmic vocabulary, though feel modulation - giving the illusion of being at a different rate through switching between different divisions of the beat - what we would call rhythmic superimposition - certainly is). I have a few youtube clips on this topic, but it is better to learn the whole picture than to spend a few moments with a youtube clip (and some I've seen on this topic are woefully bad and filled with errors!). Apologies that this sounds self-promotional, but if you really want to understand metric modulation, practice many fun exercises, see many examples you can find on recordings, and train in it systematically, please take a look at the 6th volume in rhythm book series (therhythmbooks.com) - it's the one with the blue cover. I developed and taught the rhythm curriculum for nearly 30 years at what was a top jazz program, so I was fortunate to get a lot of experience teaching this material in different ways and seeing what works best. Please at least give it a look if you are interested in this topic (there are previews at the website).

[Christian Miller]

Is this a copypasta?


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[TearItDown]

I know people on forums are into free things, regardless of whether they are the best way to learn something :-) Here is an example of a metric modulation exercise:

(I wonder what a copypasta is? If the was a response to my post, it's odd, since I was replying specifically to things written in this thread ...)

[Christian Miller]

I was being facetious.

Anyway, it appears you are selling something.


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[TearItDown]

I was being facetious.

Anyway, it appears you are selling something.


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I guess I missed the joke :-) Are you able to do the metric modulation exercise in the youtube clip I sent? Would you rather not get my input about metric modulation, and let the thread digress into the focus on (wonderful) Carnatic concepts, in spite of the fact that Carnatic music uses a fixed tala rather than metric modulation? I'm happy to bow out, just thought some might actually want to learn about metric modulation(!)

[Christian Miller]

I guess I missed the joke :-) Are you able to do the metric modulation exercise in the youtube clip I sent? Would you rather not get my input about metric modulation, and let the thread digress into the focus on (wonderful) Carnatic concepts, in spite of the fact that Carnatic music uses a fixed tala rather than metric modulation? I'm happy to bow out, just thought some might actually want to learn about metric modulation(!)

Sorry, the tone of your initial post rubbed me up the wrong way.

I’m not talking about Carnatic music btw, I’m talking about using Konnakol as a tool set for breaking down rhythmic problems.In this sense it’s simply ways of counting and subdividing using solkattu.

So if I had to learn your exercise I would start by learning to feel the eighth notes on the basic pulse at all three tempos back and forth. This can be done using solkattu. I’d be careful to make sure everything was aligning properly and I wasn’t approximating and spend some time internalising the feel of each of the three tempos against the basic pulse.

I’d then work on the actual rhythmic figures of the specific piece, and work on several different ones until it started to feel natural. Again I’d look out for alignment points so I could make sure I was nailing it.

But if there’s a less cumbersome way of doing, of course I’d be interested in knowing it.


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