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Some of the posts are about polyrhythms and some are about metric modulation. Some apply the former to the latter.
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11-30-2024 06:44 AM
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Yes, a demonstration without an explanation doesn't really help, I may be able to decipher it though.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Yeah, I certainly did my part to confuse the two. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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The division of 5 beats (over 4) is actually 1 dotted 1/8th note + .20 of a 1/16th note (about half a 1/32 note), so you can only play an approximation of it, it will never be exact. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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This post is on polyrhythms.
A salsa musician told me about Pass The Goddam Butter.
I found this, which goes over the sentences that are supposed to make various juxtapositions easier to learn.
https://personal.denison.edu/~matthe...20Practice.pdf
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A related issue which we didn't touch on is change in time signature. I had no formal training in that and was confused when I first encountered it, and for sometime thereafter.
Say you're in 4/4 and suddenly the time signature changes to 7/8.
In the 4/4 bar a quarter note gets one beat. In the 7/8 bar, an eighth note gets one beat. That's the definition of the lower number in a time signature.
I assumed, incorrectly, that the beat was the speed at which was tapping my foot in the 4/4 bar.
In fact, if I understand it even now, the quarter note stays exactly the same. The bar is 3.5 quarter notes. The time signature could read (3.5)/4 - which makes more sense to me than 7/8. Why bring eighth notes into it at all? I've read that 3.5/4 has actually been used somewhere, but I've never seen it. I've seen 7/8 plenty.
So, your foot taps 4 quarters in the 4/4 bar. Then three normal quarter notes in the 7/8 bar, but you're not done.
You tap your foot for the fourth quarter note as usual. BUT, the next note (in the following bar) is played a half beat earlier than it would have without the change to 7/8.
Tap Tap Tap TapTap. Which, btw, you may see people tap in 7/8. It can become unconscious, as remote as that may seem the first time you try it.
Hopefully, the above is correct. If not, please enlighten.
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Yes, you could maintain the same tempo and drop an 8th note at the end of your first 7/8 measure (the transitional measure from 4/4-8/8), as you suggested. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
It's easier to count the different time signatures if you think/count in 8th notes, i.e., that you're going from 8/8 to 7/8. That's the basic strategy of the South Indian solkatu system: find the smallest division of the beat common to both time signatures or rhythms so that you can compare and count them. In this case, the common denominator of 4/4 and 7/8 is eighth notes.
In terms of solkatu, I think the appropriate syllables to count 8/8 > 7/8 would be: /ta-ka-ta-ka-ta-ka-ta-ka/ (eight 1/8th notes = 8/8)
to /ta-ka-di-mi-ta-ki-ta/ (seven 1/8th notes = 7/8), because the solkatu syllables used are as follows:
ta = 1 beat
taka = 2 beats
takita = 3 beats
takadimi = 4 beats
taka takita = 5 beats
takita takita = 6 beats
takadimi takita = 7 beats
takadimi takadimi = 8 beats
Then again, maybe /ta-ka-di-mi-ta-ki-di-mi/ > /ta-ka-di-mi-ta-ki-ta/ would be better, either way would work.
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Those are brilliant and hilarious at the same time! Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Wouldn’t that be 4/4 to 7/4? Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
when I’ve written 7/4 I’ve often been asked to write alternating bars of 3/4 and 4/4 instead. Easier to read.
Then the metrical relationship is obvious.
For example, from one of my tunes
here there’s a metrical shift from 7/4 to 7/8. It’s not a metrical modulation because the eighth note remains the same.
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Gold! Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Yoink
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Of course, the reality of a (human) performing situation is that normal 1/4 notes will never be exact either. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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No, 7/4 is 7 quarter notes, which is: 14/8 Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Your 5/4 example is incorrect, i.e., it's not the poly-rhythm of 5 over 4 but the time signature of 5/4 (= 5 quarter notes) divided up as 5 beats (top beat) and 4 beats (bottom beat). In 5 over 4, the top beat (5) would be a division of 4 beats (4 quarter notes). The rhythm vocabulary is clever but impractical, the rhythmic words need to be consistent, like the solkatu solfege, so they can be used for a variety of different rhythms. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
True, but I was referring only to the relationship between the microbeats and the main beat of the time signature. Originally Posted by James W
This guy's lessons on Konnakol/Solkatu appear to be very good, there are over a half dozen on his YouTube channel.
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Rp said 4/4 moving to 7/8 with quarters going to eighths, so unless my reading comprehension has failed again (likely) that’s 4/4 going to 7/4 effectively. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Your reading comprehension was just fine through the first few sentences of his post but then he said, "In fact, if I understand it now, the quarter note stays exactly the same. The bar is 3.5 quarter notes. The time signature could read (3.5)/4 - which makes more sense to me than 7/8." Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Oh right. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Your reading comprehension was just fine through the first few sentences of his post but then he said, "In fact, if I understand it now, the quarter note stays exactly the same. The bar is 3.5 quarter notes. The time signature could read (3.5)/4 - which makes more sense to me than 7/8."
Well, this is just how changing time signatures work. There’s no metric modulation here.
One way of thinking about it is ‘universal four.’ At Berklee (and no doubt other places) they teach to always count in in 4/4 regardless of the time signature of the first bar, and then if it’s 7/8 it is indeed “3.5 beats long”.
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Correction, I see that your example on page 4 of the pdf is of 4 over 5 (5:4), not 5 over 4 (4:5). However, your page 3 example is backwards, it's labelled 5 over 3 (3:5) but it's actually the reverse, 3 over 5 beats (5:3). Originally Posted by Mick-7
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I hijacked the thread to talk about time signature changes, which are neither polyrhythms nor metric modulations.
The overarching theme responsible for this hijack is "confusing time s***".
When I see 4/4 going to 7/8 I now understand it as if it said 4/4 going to 3.5/4. If it went to 7/4, and assuming the rule that the quarter note stays the same, then the 7/4 bar would be 7 full quarter notes instead of 3.5 -- meaning it would last twice as long.
What was confusing was the definition of the denominator. In 4/4 the lower number means a quarter note gets one beat.
In 7/8, then, an eighth note gets one beat.
But, that "beat" does not, in the 7/8 bar, refer to the beat you were thinking about in the 4/4 bar.
The more I think about it, the more I like the use of 3.5/4. That says it clearly. 3.5 beats in the bar and a quarter note gets one beat -- the same quarter note you had in mind just a moment before.
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The thing is, to count 3.5 beats, you'll have to count half beats anyway, so you'll know when to drop a half beat (1/8th note) when you go from 4/4 to 7/8. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Using a common denominator for both time signatures, i.e., 8/8 & 7/8, just makes it easier to do that. You can conceive of 4/4 as 8/8 by thinking of each quarter note as 2 eighth notes, with the accent on the first half (1/8th note) of each beat. So then, 4/4: /1 - 2 - 3 - 4/ becomes /1-&-2-&-3-&-4-&/, and in 7/8 that is: /1-&-2-&-3-&-4/
If your two time signatures are equally divisible, like 4/4 & 7/8, than counting in half beats is fine, but if they are asymmetrical, the modulation will be difficult and that's where a poly-rhythm counting strategy like Konnakol can be very useful.
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The difficulty I had was figuring out what the notation meant. Once I grasped that, the counting was easy. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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I suppose I looked at a lot of 20th century scores like this when I was getting into fancy music:
And then I played in a project that was influenced by Mahavishnu and Zappa with music written by a drummer. No two bars were the same. All additive rhythm. It was actually pretty intuitive to count once you got used to 'hats' and 'houses' which is a technique for playing contemporary concert music I'd read about in a classical violin magazine.
The Boulez extract works like that (apart from that quintuplet upbeat lol). He's even put in the shapes in to help. The triangle is a 'house' (3 eighth notes) and the 'downstroke' symbol is a 'hat' (2 eight notes). This translates to Ta Ki Da and Ta Ka in Konnakol. So I could conduct it at least haha.
Even in non squeaky door or prog nerd music you often get dropped beats and so on (not usually a dropped half beat though). It's common in folk and pop music.
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You could have convinced me that Boulez Extract was in a little bottle in my spice cabinet. But, I've actually had to play this version of Surrey With a Fringe (link below) which is in 4/4, 6/8, 5/8, 7/8 and 3/4 with metric modulation. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I suppose I looked at a lot of 20th century scores like this when I was getting into fancy music:
And then I played in a project that was influenced by Mahavishnu and Zappa with music written by a drummer. No two bars were the same. All additive rhythm. It was actually pretty intuitive to count once you got used to 'hats' and 'houses' which is a technique for playing contemporary concert music I'd read about in a classical violin magazine.
The Boulez extract works like that (apart from that quintuplet upbeat lol). He's even put in the shapes in to help. The triangle is a 'house' (3 eighth notes) and the 'downstroke' symbol is a 'hat' (2 eight notes). This translates to Ta Ki Da and Ta Ka in Konnakol. So I could conduct it at least haha.
Even in non squeaky door or prog nerd music you often get dropped beats and so on (not usually a dropped half beat though). It's common in folk and pop music.
So, at "eyes will pop" the time signature changes from 7/8 to 4/4. Simultaneously, dotted quarter = quarter.
The melody in the 7/8 bar contains quarter notes but no dotted quarters.
The time signature change is easy enough. If it weren't for the metric modulation, you'd play 3.5 quarter notes and then you'd be in 4/4. It would feel like dropping a half beat.
But, I still find the metric modulation confusing. How do I even put the equation into words? "Eighth notes will now be played at 2/3 of the original speed"? "The new quarter note will take the same length of time as the earlier dotted quarter?"
So, I have to play 3 quarters and 2 sixteenths in the 7/8 bar while counting to myself in dotted quarters (a neat trick) and then that dotted quarter count becomes the new tempo.
If there's an easier way to find the new tempo, please don't hesitate to post. The issue is not the polyrhythm, rather, it's finding the new tempo on the fly.
At "weather" it goes to 7/8 for one bar then the reverse metric modulation simultaneous with a change to 6/8. That's actually easier, or so it seems to me. You think in 4/4, drop a half beat in the 7/8 bar and then that quarter note becomes three eighths in 6/8.
Then, on "two bright sidelights" the melody is 4 dotted eighths so you're now playing 4 over 6.
And so on. The solo section is the same hodgepodge of time signature changes 6/8, 5/8, 7/8 and 4/4. And, there's a drum solo over the same kind of stuff.
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Right I think I got it .....
So A feels like a wonky waltz. You have dropped eighths all over place (we have 11/8, or a bar of 6/8 followed by a bar 5/8 repeated three times) but the basic pulse feels like a 6/8.
123 123 123 12
123 123 123 12
123 123 123 12
The 'Fringe on Top' feels like a hemiola. 12 12 12. That’s presumably your 3/4 bar.
The Eyes Will Pop feels like a hemiola with an additional eighth note rest so, 7/8 grouped 12 12 123.
The Bridge then feels like we take that basic 123 waltz tempo as the half time for the 4/4 swing. This is made EASIER by the 7/8 bar in fact, because the we group 12 12 123
This works out notationally to be dotted quarter = half note or dotted eight = quarter note, but it feels intuitive because the basic pulse is unchanged, but the subdivision moves from triple to duple time.
It’s the sort of thing that looks harder written down than it is.
Unless I'm totally wrong of course lol. Could be good to see a chart.Last edited by Christian Miller; 12-04-2024 at 06:33 PM.
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Try it with Anita’s solo. She is soloing on a 6/8 A section followed by the 4/4 bridge. You can focus on the metrical relationship without worrying about the odd time stuff.
Start off by just tapping the beat. You’ll see that the 6/8 pulse and the half note of the 4/4 match up.
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Nice job in figuring that out. I have a chart a friend did (I don't have permission to share it) and it agrees with everything you wrote.
I also appreciate the tip about "eyes will pop". The melody there is three quarter notes a 16th rest and a sixteenth note. The bass line is 3 quarters and an eighth rest.
So, now I'm trying to think this through. If I follow your line of thinking, the 7/8 is counted 12 12 123. 7 eighth notes.
Now, two things change. The time signature goes to 4/4. and the dotted eighth note becomes the new quarter note. That implies that the dotted quarter note becomes the new half note.
So, the 12 12 123 is useful because the "123" is the correct length of the half note in 4/4.
At "weather" the time goes to 7/8 for just one bar. Easy enough, just 3.5 of the quarters you were counting (assuming you divided that half note from the previous paragraph).
After the one bar of 7/8, the time signature goes to 6/8 and
there's another metric modulation equation. This time, quarter note = dotted eighth.
So at the moment you hit the equation at the end of the 7/8 bar, how do you instantly, on the bandstand, find the pulse for the new eighth note?
You can get the new dotted eighth from the old quarter note, or better yet, the new dotted quarter from the old half note. The new measure of 6/8 lasts as long on the clock as the old measure of 4/4.
Is that much correct?
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I think you are over-complicating this, if you count all the signatures in 8th notes, you need only add or subtract micro-beats: 7/8 > 8/8 (4/4) > 6/8 - etc. You would just accent the beats differently in each time signature. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Of several videos I watched, I thought this one had the clearest explanation.
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