The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    Well the first thing is there are the two halves of the thing — the improvisation and the harmony. Eventually those sixth diminished scales are used in single note lines too, but for a long time it’s not.

    Also lots of teachers have systems. I’m not sure it’s useful to compare them in this way. A system should help you access a sound you want. If it does it’s better. If it doesn’t it’s worse. So you’re not necessarily wrong or missing something if Barry’s stuff seems convoluted to you.

    as for the actual question …

    I guess part of the problem is that I don’t know Warren Nunes at all, but Barry’s single note stuff is pretty much all line building. It’s hard to describe without actually doing it, but when you get familiar with some of his “rules” and try to put together a line you’re just like … oh shit this sounds like bebop.

    Again this is separate from the harmony stuff, so you’re sort of asking two questions. The harmony stuff is super modular and I’ve found it really helpful in chord melody and with developing vocabulary relating to chord progressions in tunes. But it’s a specific sound that won’t really thrill someone who wants to sound like Herbie Hancock or whatever.

    i don’t know how helpful any of that was.
    Peter, thanks for this.

    Might you give an example of one or two of his rules?

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  3. #27

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    Rpjazzguitar, maybe I have an idea how you could become converted ...


  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    Anyone convert BH terminology?

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    Ultimately its all the same but the point is to find one system that is quick to process while playing rather than get bogged down in theory. BH seems the best in this regard, but to the OP my hurdle is going back and forth on the terminology.
    Basically my experience is that to work out the 6th/dim stuff, if that's what you're referring to since you're talking about Echols, is that you have to go 1 mile an hour for a while. You will just have to let the theory take over your brain and not be able to play jack crap in time while you're learning it. Think whatever way you can grasp it best, but for me I had to think all the translations. Like: ok C major 6th dim is the same as A minor 7, C minor 6 is the same as A half dim etc. You'll get it as long as you put the work in and build up some technique.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Would someone please present a simple concrete example, preferably in baby talk, in the key of C major, to show how BH's material helps you solo?
    BH teaching is divided into the 2 broad categories of single note and harmony 6th/dim.

    Like here's a line done BH's way and here's how it differs from whatever the alternative is.
    His single note system isn't mean to be the only system but it is meant to be comprehensive in that it will teach you to solo well. It is based off of Charlie Parker type lines. Although it is his adaptation and doesn't summarize all the ideas that CP used.

    What triggered this request was reading that his nomenclature is designed to make it faster to create certain sounds when soloing (if I understood that). But, when soloing it should be your ear and your imagination. The cognitive devices are for the practice room where speed doesn't matter much. What am I missing?
    What you're missing is that soloing is not only your ear and imagination, it is having the syntax built up. Then you can add ear and imagination. This is what Chris Parks teaches, one of BH's proteges.

    I'm not trying to say anything negative. I just want to understand the appeal of BH from an example I can comprehend without first diving into the system. And, yes, I have added that extra note and harmonized the expanded scale. I can see how that works, but I didn't want to use the sounds I got.
    His single note system goes well beyond the 6th/dim scale itself. There are all kinds of devices. I think you're conflating 6th/dim with BH single note.

    Let me try asking this question in a different way. I'm looking for a simple, concrete example of why BH's system is attractive.

    Compare to Warren Nunes' system.

    Imaj=iiim=Vmaj7#11 (actually, I'm not sure about this one)= vim.

    iim=IVmaj7=V7=vim=viim7b5

    Can someone give a simple, concrete example of how BH's teachings permit someone to go beyond Warren's?
    If you're talking about harmony, 6th/dim is a system for extremely deep and rich chord melody, where it isn't chord to chord to chord, it's a flow of rich harmony every beat and within different voices. Again, not the only system there is, but an extremely good one if you follow it.
    Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 10-12-2024 at 11:26 AM.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    Rpjazzguitar, maybe I have an idea how you could become converted ...

    Thanks. That was helpful.

  8. #32

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    @epjazzguitar

    I’ve done a lot more work on the single note stuff than the movements.

    The single note stuff is pretty great for learning how to play idiomatic bop lines without regurgitating II V licks.

    (The single note stuff is not the subject of this thread.)

    When I turned up to (single note) improvisation class for the first time I was surprised by the fact that there was actually no improvisation in class. It was 80-90% Barry walking a group (30 or more sometimes) through constructing a bop line on a standard, and then everyone played it together.

    Demanding on one’s musicianship and imo much more valuable in many ways. It was then up to you to apply the stuff yourself on the practice room.

    I didn’t really get the value of it until I started actually transcribing bop, though. Then I could see his approach fit hand in glove with the bop players.

    Harmony class was tbh less helpful a lot of the time because it was quite hard to cotton on to what Barry was saying as there were a gaggle pianists hanging out by the piano and I couldn’t hear what he was saying much of the time, or always understand what I was hearing from the piano. But I learned bits.

    Also the Barry harmony stuff needs a lot of practice. You need to be really good at chords and intervals through the scales. And this needs to be drilled into muscle memory. I’d compare the scope of this project to things like the Mick Goodrick cycles etc, although there are simple things like the drop 2 block chords and so on that are useful right away (but those are not unique to Barry of course.)


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  9. #33

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    somebody’s been spending a little too much time with Chris Parks

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
    BH teaching is divided into the 2 broad categories of single note and harmony 6th/dim.

    His single note system isn't mean to be the only system but it is meant to be comprehensive in that it will teach you to solo well. It is based off of Charlie Parker type lines. Although it is his adaptation and doesn't summarize all the ideas that CP used.

    What you're missing is that soloing is not only your ear and imagination, it is having the syntax built up. Then you can add ear and imagination. This is what Chris Parks teaches, one of BH's proteges.

    His single note system goes well beyond the 6th/dim scale itself. There are all kinds of devices. I think you're conflating 6th/dim with BH single note.

    If you're talking about harmony, 6th/dim is a system for extremely deep and rich chord melody, where it isn't chord to chord to chord, it's a flow of rich harmony every beat and within different voices. Again, not the only system there is, but an extremely good one if you follow it.
    But for real, good answers on all this stuff.

    As for this:

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Peter, thanks for this.

    Might you give an example of one or two of his rules?
    Sure but the rules sound a little superficial out of context. Stuff you’ve almost certainly heard before too.

    1. For lines starting on a chord tone, a passing note between the 1 and 7 over your dominant scale. This can be any note later on, but for starters it’s a passing note.

    2. For lines not starting on a chord tone, skip the passing note. This is a subtle distinction from bebop scales because the goal is to land on a chord tone, rather than have chord tones on every strong beat.

    3. You can also add a passing between 3 and 2, and 2 and 1 for a line starting on the beat, and you can put a passing note between 1 and 7 and 2 and 1 for a line starting off the beat. So like … on a chord tone … E Eb D Db C B Bb A G etc. Or on a nonchord tone F E D Db C B Bb etc.

    4. reverse the rules if you’re starting on an off beat.

    It’s pretty hum drum stuff if it isn’t coupled with all the fundamental technique stuff he puts first. With it you might end up with like …

    All eighth notes ….

    Gm7: E Eb D Db C B Bb A
    C7:G Bb Db E D Db C B
    F6: Bb Db E G F C

    That’s kind of the simplest plug and play sort of thing that jumps to mind. Hes got additional stuff for triplets, simple ways to vary vocabulary. It goes from something like that lick to some way cooler stuff pretty fast.

  10. #34

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    I think Christian and Alan are going to be much better messengers for this as they’re way deeper. Bobby hasn’t been in it long, but he’s been doing workshops with Chris, which is probably darned close to the real thing.

    So one of them can chime in with something more.

    Id also be interested to hear what those folks are working on if they still are working on this stuff.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    I'm not here to convince or convert. If you can see the beauty and simplicity of Barry's method, it will benefit your harmonic and melodic improvisation.
    Okay so maybe just Christian will be a better messenger than me.

    Just kidding. Here is the place where I say that Alan’s book on this stuff is really very good. And if someone finds the topic interesting then it’s worth digging into more.

    Chris’s YouTube channel is also really good, obviously. It’s not really sequenced, but if you look for those topics (added not rules, etc etc) then you’ll get a feel. And he also kind of builds lines in the videos so you can see him ruminating the same way. Which is cool.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    somebody’s been spending a little too much time with Chris Parks



    But for real, good answers on all this stuff.

    As for this:



    Sure but the rules sound a little superficial out of context. Stuff you’ve almost certainly heard before too.

    1. For lines starting on a chord tone, a passing note between the 1 and 7 over your dominant scale. This can be any note later on, but for starters it’s a passing note.

    2. For lines not starting on a chord tone, skip the passing note. This is a subtle distinction from bebop scales because the goal is to land on a chord tone, rather than have chord tones on every strong beat.

    3. You can also add a passing between 3 and 2, and 2 and 1 for a line starting on the beat, and you can put a passing note between 1 and 7 and 2 and 1 for a line starting off the beat. So like … on a chord tone … E Eb D Db C B Bb A G etc. Or on a nonchord tone F E D Db C B Bb etc.

    4. reverse the rules if you’re starting on an off beat.

    It’s pretty hum drum stuff if it isn’t coupled with all the fundamental technique stuff he puts first. With it you might end up with like …

    All eighth notes ….

    Gm7: E Eb D Db C B Bb A
    C7:G Bb Db E D Db C B
    F6: Bb Db E G F C

    That’s kind of the simplest plug and play sort of thing that jumps to mind. Hes got additional stuff for triplets, simple ways to vary vocabulary. It goes from something like that lick to some way cooler stuff pretty fast.
    Thanks for this -- and thanks for taking the time to explain it.

  13. #37

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    I’d also say that I’m not a Barry head. And I don’t mean that as a caveat … I actually mean it more as an endorsement.

    I think it can seem like the barrier for entry is quite high, and I’ll admit that it is a bit high. But the approach is pretty friendly to interlopers. I do happen to love the bebop sound, so the actual nuts and bolts of it are very interesting to me but …

    - I’ve been working on a bunch of Jim Hall stuff lately, and the components are quite different (rhythmically, for example), but the approach to line building carries over in spades.

    - The way he chunks harmony into movements is applicable (maybe essential) to anyone who wants to play American songbook standards.

    - The technical stuff (the ABCs) is a really nice distillation of what can be an overwhelming potential body of practice material into a highly idiomatic group of exercises,

    - Id be highly skeptical of anyone who endorses Reg’s “chord pattern” concept but doesn’t see the value in the way, for example, Alan’s book deals with harmony. There are some conceptual differences, but the practical end game of working up a chord vocabulary over common movements should be hand in glove with that chord pattern way of thinking.

    I suppose I should say that by “interloper” I do mean that I work on this stuff intensely for a few weeks or months, and then leave it for a while. I suppose relatively speaking, I work quite hard on it, but I don’t have any philosophical attachment to it, other than that it seems to be excellent teaching. So just casually checking it out might not do you any good. It does require work. I just mean you don’t need to be struck blind on the road to Damascus or anything to get real value from working on it.

  14. #38

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    It’s a bit magic

    So I was teaching someone today

    start with rhythm changes scale outline 1-7. Dead corny right? Just the obvious notes

    Ok let’s be cool and run the Bb down to the third of G (from 7)

    A G F Eb D C B

    Almost can’t help myself going 4 notes up the diminished. Let’s do it

    B D F Ab

    Already - it’s a bop line. Bb G7
    Ok down the triad G Eb C and from C lets go down the scale to the third of F7

    G Eb C Bb A

    Could do diminished again, but maybe a 4 phrase into the Bb chord

    Eb C C# D

    It’s nuts. Basic building blocks of music almost turn themselves into bop lines. Four basic modules and you have a serviceable bop line on Bb G7 C-7 F7 Bb.


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  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    I’d also say that I’m not a Barry head. And I don’t mean that as a caveat … I actually mean it more as an endorsement.

    I think it can seem like the barrier for entry is quite high, and I’ll admit that it is a bit high. But the approach is pretty friendly to interlopers. I do happen to love the bebop sound, so the actual nuts and bolts of it are very interesting to me but …

    - I’ve been working on a bunch of Jim Hall stuff lately, and the components are quite different (rhythmically, for example), but the approach to line building carries over in spades.

    - The way he chunks harmony into movements is applicable (maybe essential) to anyone who wants to play American songbook standards.

    - The technical stuff (the ABCs) is a really nice distillation of what can be an overwhelming potential body of practice material into a highly idiomatic group of exercises,

    - Id be highly skeptical of anyone who endorses Reg’s “chord pattern” concept but doesn’t see the value in the way, for example, Alan’s book deals with harmony. There are some conceptual differences, but the practical end game of working up a chord vocabulary over common movements should be hand in glove with that chord pattern way of thinking.

    I suppose I should say that by “interloper” I do mean that I work on this stuff intensely for a few weeks or months, and then leave it for a while. I suppose relatively speaking, I work quite hard on it, but I don’t have any philosophical attachment to it, other than that it seems to be excellent teaching. So just casually checking it out might not do you any good. It does require work. I just mean you don’t need to be struck blind on the road to Damascus or anything to get real value from working on it.
    I don’t know. I couldn’t sit down and teach a comprehensive course based on Barry’s stuff the way Chris does. He knows the ‘syllabus’ well. You have guys like Shan who followed Barry all over Europe.

    So I think of myself as an interloper.

    What I can say is the bag of stuff I’ve extracted from Barry (which amounts to some basic stuff from DVD I) has served me really well.

    But you have to know the guitar and I think it rewards the more advanced player who can already play jazz a bit. Just my sense.


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  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I don’t know. I couldn’t sit down and teach a course based on Barry’s stuff the way Chris does. He knows the ‘syllabus’ well. So I think of myself as an interloper.

    What I can say is the bag of stuff I’ve extracted from Barry (which amounts to some basic stuff from DVD I) has served me really well.

    But you have to know the guitar and I think it rewards the more advanced player who can already play jazz a bit. Just my sense.


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    Oh man, that’s a hard agree. I’ve heard Chris say that he didn’t even really know more than pentatonic scales when he started with Barry and I have no earthly idea how he survived.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    Oh man, that’s a hard agree. I’ve heard Chris say that he didn’t even really know more than pentatonic scales when he started with Barry and I have no earthly idea how he survived.
    Cripes


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  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    Oh man, that’s a hard agree. I’ve heard Chris say that he didn’t even really know more than pentatonic scales when he started with Barry and I have no earthly idea how he survived.
    Less to unlearn?

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    [...] You have guys like Shan who followed Barry all over Europe.[...]
    AFAIK Shan was not only a follower but a close friend of Barry.



    EDIT: I think I am repeating myself again and again. I'll spare you the Eurovision Song Contest today LOL.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    AFAIK Shan was not only a follower but a close friend of Barry.

    Yeah I dunno, I met Shan a couple of times at a jam. Dave Friedman I know a little better, he was my main contact for it all and hung a lot with Barry. Haven’t seen him since I went to a Pasquale gig in 2019.

    Tbh I kind of live in a cave.

    They were just guys at the session. Ofer was there too when he was in London.

    I find this whole internet thing about Barry a little surreal tbh. In 2006 no one gave a ****. You’d go to a church in Hampstead and there’d be 15 people there none of whom I recognised from the scene.

    Later that changed a lot.


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  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    AFAIK Shan was not only a follower but a close friend of Barry.



    EDIT: I think I am repeating myself again and again. I'll spare you the Eurovision Song Contest today LOL.
    Bloody love Eurovision, no irony


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  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Yeah I dunno, I met Shan a couple of times at a jam. Dave Friedman I know a little better, he was my main contact for it all and hung a lot with Barry. Haven’t seen him since I went to a Pasquale gig in 2019.

    Tbh I kind of live in a cave.

    They were just guys at the session. Ofer was there too when he was in London.

    I find this whole internet thing about Barry a little surreal tbh. In 2006 no one gave a ****. You’d go to a church in Hampstead and there’d be 15 people there none of whom I recognised from the scene.

    Later that changed a lot.


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    If you are talking about Ofer Landsberg from Israel: One of my all-time favorites. I guess my musical taste is very old-fashioned and he is great at that.

    There is a video somewhere on Youtube from that church where Barry talks about soul jazz blues and gospel clichés as "swear phrases".

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    If you are talking about Ofer Landsberg from Israel: One of my all-time favorites. I guess my musical taste is very old-fashioned and he is great at that.
    Yeah he was in London for a bit. David B knows him quite well I think? (David B knows EVERYONE.) Funny guy, cracked me up.

    There is a video somewhere on Youtube from that church where Barry talks about soul jazz blues and gospel clichés as "swear phrases".
    Oh this is such a generational Detroit thing. Class technical school (tho Barry didn’t go there), orchestra on a Saturday. Tommy Flanagan, Kenny Burrell, Paul Chambers all did it. Those guys know their European Canon. The blues was, not a source of shame exactly, but they felt they’d grown beyond it, I guess?

    (When it comes to popular music, Jameson never rated the thing he was remembered for.)

    Afaik Barry regarded bebop as carrying the torch for Western classical music. Well, that is to say that’s exactly what he said. Bach, Chopin, Bird and Bud
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-12-2024 at 03:19 PM.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Bloody love Eurovision, no irony

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    You want it -- you get it. Shan Verma's nephew live and direct on TV.



    To be honest, I wouldn't have recognized Jay Verma on keyboards in this clip, but when I saw one of those shots where the artists from different countries were shown after their performances, I thought I had seen the guy before (in the video above). I must have been really bored that night LOL.

    Actually, I prefer listening to Queen or Muse when I need bombast.

    Seeing Muse live from the side of the stage in 2003 (IIRC) was quite an experience. Back then they were even not playing on the main stage yet.
    But I guess I might possibly drift off-topic ...

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    You want it -- you get it. Shan Verma's nephew live and direct on TV.



    To be honest, I wouldn't have recognized Jay Verma in this clip, but when I saw one of those shots where the artists from different countries were shown after their performances, I thought I had seen the guy before. I must have been really bored that night LOL.

    Actually, I prefer listening to Queen or Muse when I need bombast.

    Seeing Muse live from the side of the stage in 2003 (IIRC) was quite an experience. Back then they were even not on the main stage.
    But I guess I might possibly drift off-topic ...
    Ah he’s with Sam? Coool. There’s a man it is scientifically impossible to dislike. (Or so it seems, no idea what he’s actually like.)

    One of our better entrants without damning him with faint praise.

    Eurovision is its own weird thing. If you go in expecting even great pop, that’s not what it is. You have to enjoy it for what it is which is LUDICROUS. And then occasionally some mad and hilarious moments.


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  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Yeah he was in London for a bit. David B knows him quite well I think? (David B knows EVERYONE.) Funny guy, cracked me up. used to sleep at Smalls when he didn’t have a place in New York.


    Oh this is such a generational Detroit thing. Class technical school (tho Barry didn’t go there), orchestra on a Saturday. Tommy Flanagan, Kenny Burrell, Paul Chambers all did it. Those guys know their European Canon. The blues was, not a source of shame exactly, but they felt they’d grown beyond it, I guess?

    (When it comes to popular music, Jameson never rated the thing he was remembered for.)

    Afaik Barry regarded bebop as carrying the torch for Western classical music. Well, that is to say that’s exactly what he said. Bach, Chopin, Bird and Bud
    I know David knows Ofer. I hope Ofer is OK in that Middle East fucked up mess.

    Barry was competing (friendly) with Berry Gordy (Motown boss man) in school for the title of the boogie woogie boss man.