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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Might you give an example of one or two of his rules?
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10-11-2024 11:03 PM
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Rpjazzguitar, maybe I have an idea how you could become converted ...
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Originally Posted by BWV
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Originally Posted by BWV
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Like here's a line done BH's way and here's how it differs from whatever the alternative is.
What triggered this request was reading that his nomenclature is designed to make it faster to create certain sounds when soloing (if I understood that). But, when soloing it should be your ear and your imagination. The cognitive devices are for the practice room where speed doesn't matter much. What am I missing?
I'm not trying to say anything negative. I just want to understand the appeal of BH from an example I can comprehend without first diving into the system. And, yes, I have added that extra note and harmonized the expanded scale. I can see how that works, but I didn't want to use the sounds I got.
Let me try asking this question in a different way. I'm looking for a simple, concrete example of why BH's system is attractive.
Compare to Warren Nunes' system.
Imaj=iiim=Vmaj7#11 (actually, I'm not sure about this one)= vim.
iim=IVmaj7=V7=vim=viim7b5
Can someone give a simple, concrete example of how BH's teachings permit someone to go beyond Warren's?Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 10-12-2024 at 11:26 AM.
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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@epjazzguitar
I’ve done a lot more work on the single note stuff than the movements.
The single note stuff is pretty great for learning how to play idiomatic bop lines without regurgitating II V licks.
(The single note stuff is not the subject of this thread.)
When I turned up to (single note) improvisation class for the first time I was surprised by the fact that there was actually no improvisation in class. It was 80-90% Barry walking a group (30 or more sometimes) through constructing a bop line on a standard, and then everyone played it together.
Demanding on one’s musicianship and imo much more valuable in many ways. It was then up to you to apply the stuff yourself on the practice room.
I didn’t really get the value of it until I started actually transcribing bop, though. Then I could see his approach fit hand in glove with the bop players.
Harmony class was tbh less helpful a lot of the time because it was quite hard to cotton on to what Barry was saying as there were a gaggle pianists hanging out by the piano and I couldn’t hear what he was saying much of the time, or always understand what I was hearing from the piano. But I learned bits.
Also the Barry harmony stuff needs a lot of practice. You need to be really good at chords and intervals through the scales. And this needs to be drilled into muscle memory. I’d compare the scope of this project to things like the Mick Goodrick cycles etc, although there are simple things like the drop 2 block chords and so on that are useful right away (but those are not unique to Barry of course.)
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somebody’s been spending a little too much time with Chris Parks
Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
As for this:
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
1. For lines starting on a chord tone, a passing note between the 1 and 7 over your dominant scale. This can be any note later on, but for starters it’s a passing note.
2. For lines not starting on a chord tone, skip the passing note. This is a subtle distinction from bebop scales because the goal is to land on a chord tone, rather than have chord tones on every strong beat.
3. You can also add a passing between 3 and 2, and 2 and 1 for a line starting on the beat, and you can put a passing note between 1 and 7 and 2 and 1 for a line starting off the beat. So like … on a chord tone … E Eb D Db C B Bb A G etc. Or on a nonchord tone F E D Db C B Bb etc.
4. reverse the rules if you’re starting on an off beat.
It’s pretty hum drum stuff if it isn’t coupled with all the fundamental technique stuff he puts first. With it you might end up with like …
All eighth notes ….
Gm7: E Eb D Db C B Bb A
C7:G Bb Db E D Db C B
F6: Bb Db E G F C
That’s kind of the simplest plug and play sort of thing that jumps to mind. Hes got additional stuff for triplets, simple ways to vary vocabulary. It goes from something like that lick to some way cooler stuff pretty fast.
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I think Christian and Alan are going to be much better messengers for this as they’re way deeper. Bobby hasn’t been in it long, but he’s been doing workshops with Chris, which is probably darned close to the real thing.
So one of them can chime in with something more.
Id also be interested to hear what those folks are working on if they still are working on this stuff.
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Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
Just kidding. Here is the place where I say that Alan’s book on this stuff is really very good. And if someone finds the topic interesting then it’s worth digging into more.
Chris’s YouTube channel is also really good, obviously. It’s not really sequenced, but if you look for those topics (added not rules, etc etc) then you’ll get a feel. And he also kind of builds lines in the videos so you can see him ruminating the same way. Which is cool.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I’d also say that I’m not a Barry head. And I don’t mean that as a caveat … I actually mean it more as an endorsement.
I think it can seem like the barrier for entry is quite high, and I’ll admit that it is a bit high. But the approach is pretty friendly to interlopers. I do happen to love the bebop sound, so the actual nuts and bolts of it are very interesting to me but …
- I’ve been working on a bunch of Jim Hall stuff lately, and the components are quite different (rhythmically, for example), but the approach to line building carries over in spades.
- The way he chunks harmony into movements is applicable (maybe essential) to anyone who wants to play American songbook standards.
- The technical stuff (the ABCs) is a really nice distillation of what can be an overwhelming potential body of practice material into a highly idiomatic group of exercises,
- Id be highly skeptical of anyone who endorses Reg’s “chord pattern” concept but doesn’t see the value in the way, for example, Alan’s book deals with harmony. There are some conceptual differences, but the practical end game of working up a chord vocabulary over common movements should be hand in glove with that chord pattern way of thinking.
I suppose I should say that by “interloper” I do mean that I work on this stuff intensely for a few weeks or months, and then leave it for a while. I suppose relatively speaking, I work quite hard on it, but I don’t have any philosophical attachment to it, other than that it seems to be excellent teaching. So just casually checking it out might not do you any good. It does require work. I just mean you don’t need to be struck blind on the road to Damascus or anything to get real value from working on it.
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It’s a bit magic
So I was teaching someone today
start with rhythm changes scale outline 1-7. Dead corny right? Just the obvious notes
Ok let’s be cool and run the Bb down to the third of G (from 7)
A G F Eb D C B
Almost can’t help myself going 4 notes up the diminished. Let’s do it
B D F Ab
Already - it’s a bop line. Bb G7
Ok down the triad G Eb C and from C lets go down the scale to the third of F7
G Eb C Bb A
Could do diminished again, but maybe a 4 phrase into the Bb chord
Eb C C# D
It’s nuts. Basic building blocks of music almost turn themselves into bop lines. Four basic modules and you have a serviceable bop line on Bb G7 C-7 F7 Bb.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
So I think of myself as an interloper.
What I can say is the bag of stuff I’ve extracted from Barry (which amounts to some basic stuff from DVD I) has served me really well.
But you have to know the guitar and I think it rewards the more advanced player who can already play jazz a bit. Just my sense.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
EDIT: I think I am repeating myself again and again. I'll spare you the Eurovision Song Contest today LOL.
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
Tbh I kind of live in a cave.
They were just guys at the session. Ofer was there too when he was in London.
I find this whole internet thing about Barry a little surreal tbh. In 2006 no one gave a ****. You’d go to a church in Hampstead and there’d be 15 people there none of whom I recognised from the scene.
Later that changed a lot.
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
There is a video somewhere on Youtube from that church where Barry talks about soul jazz blues and gospel clichés as "swear phrases".
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
There is a video somewhere on Youtube from that church where Barry talks about soul jazz blues and gospel clichés as "swear phrases".
(When it comes to popular music, Jameson never rated the thing he was remembered for.)
Afaik Barry regarded bebop as carrying the torch for Western classical music. Well, that is to say that’s exactly what he said. Bach, Chopin, Bird and BudLast edited by Christian Miller; 10-12-2024 at 03:19 PM.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
To be honest, I wouldn't have recognized Jay Verma on keyboards in this clip, but when I saw one of those shots where the artists from different countries were shown after their performances, I thought I had seen the guy before (in the video above). I must have been really bored that night LOL.
Actually, I prefer listening to Queen or Muse when I need bombast.
Seeing Muse live from the side of the stage in 2003 (IIRC) was quite an experience. Back then they were even not playing on the main stage yet.
But I guess I might possibly drift off-topic ...
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
One of our better entrants without damning him with faint praise.
Eurovision is its own weird thing. If you go in expecting even great pop, that’s not what it is. You have to enjoy it for what it is which is LUDICROUS. And then occasionally some mad and hilarious moments.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Barry was competing (friendly) with Berry Gordy (Motown boss man) in school for the title of the boogie woogie boss man.
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