Maj7 arpeggio over Dom7 chord question

[Braunny46]

Can anyone advise on how a DbMaj7 arpeggio works over a G7 chord?

I get how a FMaj7 would clearly work. But, I'm looking at a piece that's using DbMaj7.

Thanks,

Tony B

[ragman1]

Are you asking this because the usual tritone sub is a dominant, or 7b5, rather than a M7?

(It might be a good idea to photo the music you've got so we can see everything in context).

[pamosmusic]

Can anyone advise on how a DbMaj7 arpeggio works over a G7 chord?

I get how a FMaj7 would clearly work. But, I'm looking at a piece that's using DbMaj7.

Thanks,

Tony B

Voiceleading … that strong half-step pull down. Like sideslipping. It’s an odd sound but one that Bud Powell liked in particular, if memory serves.

[rpjazzguitar]

Dbmaj7 is Db F Ab C. (If that C was a B it would be the tritone sub).

Against G7 that's the #11, 3, b9 and 11.

The #11 and b9 are common extensions. The 11 is a so-called avoid note because it might make things sound less dominant.

A question is whether you can come up with a strong enough line that the ear accepts the 11 while still hearing a dominant line.

Or ignore this bit of theory and see if you like it. Every note in the chromatic scale can be "justified" against any chord with some bit of theory, sometimes arcane (to me, anyway).

[Mick-7]

Just a less common tritone sub for V7, mostly for the reason mentioned: Lacks the leading tone (i.e., the note B in Db7), which sounds the resolution to the I min or I Maj. chord (Cm or CM7). If you are resolving to a sub for the CM7 chord such as Em7, it will work better.

[Braunny46]

Thank you all for your replies and insights. Truthfully, I was asking because as a perpetual newbie at Jazz, this particular relationship confounded me. I tried to put a score snippet into the chat, but the program bounced it as too large. I'll need to figure that out another time.

However, each of your replies educated me. I see what's happening now.

Thank you again!

Tony B

[Christian Miller]

Can anyone advise on how a DbMaj7 arpeggio works over a G7 chord?

I get how a FMaj7 would clearly work. But, I'm looking at a piece that's using DbMaj7.

Thanks,

Tony B

You want a Bmaj7

In fact anything works on a resolving dominant chord if you know how to phrase, and voice lead. Big ifs.


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[equenda]

Can anyone advise on how a DbMaj7 arpeggio works over a G7 chord?

I get how a FMaj7 would clearly work. But, I'm looking at a piece that's using DbMaj7.

Thanks,

Tony B

Hi!
To play a DbMaj7 (or DbMaj9) or a AbMaj7 (or AbMaj9) arpeggio over G7 in my preferred solution to add tension to the dominant chord.

The notes of the G7(9) chord are: G B D F A

The notes of the DbMaj7(9) arpeggio are: Db F Ab C Eb
.....and if you play this arpeggio you add the b5 b9 11 and #5 to the G7(9) chord

The notes of the AbMaj7(9) arpeggio are: Ab C Eb G Bb
.....and if you play this arpeggio you add the b9 11 #5 and #9 to the G7(9) chord

In both cases you do not play the M3rd (B note) of the G7(9) chord and so you add a very short "momentary suspension" of mode....which is not good for someone but that I like very much.

To this approach I have dedicated several pages on my method: "Melodic Improvisation for Jazz Guitar: Practical Examples and Studies Based on Tension and Resolution".

A pratical example is this solo over the "All The Things You Are" chords progression (solo starts at 6:03):

Ettore

[bako]

Dbma7 is closer related to a minor subdominant IV chord Fm which also resolves clearly to I.
Just another route, converging at the tonic.

[henryrobinett]

You want a Bmaj7

In fact anything works on a resolving dominant chord if you know how to phrase, and voice lead. Big ifs.


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Really? Hm. That's a weird one to me. I could better see BbMaj7, but OK. Or what I have done is to play a BMaj7b5 arppegio. I'm still scratching my head.

[ragman1]

I tried to put a score snippet into the chat, but the program bounced it as too large. I'll need to figure that out another time.

Put it in Paint and use the Resize button. Something like 650 x the height is about right. See bottom of the Paint screen.

[pamosmusic]

Really? Hm. That's a weird one to me. I could better see BbMaj7, but OK. Or what I have done is to play a BMaj7b5 arppegio. I'm still scratching my head.

Maj7 of the bVII of the dominant chord is a super inside sound. A tritone up gives you that Maj7 of the third of the dominant chord.

Its an odd sound but works pretty well once you put the ole bebop on it.

[Christian Miller]

Really? Hm. That's a weird one to me. I could better see BbMaj7, but OK. Or what I have done is to play a BMaj7b5 arppegio. I'm still scratching my head.

Barry Harris used to teach it. It’s one of the important chords of the tritone. So you could say bVIImaj7 of the tritone sub. Could also be the triad.

One of the last things I learned from him was playing G# triad - Am on an Am V-I.


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[Christian Miller]

Maj7 of the bVII of the dominant chord is a super inside sound. A tritone up gives you that Maj7 of the third of the dominant chord.

Its an odd sound but works pretty well once you put the ole bebop on it.

There’s also B/G as a dominant chord which I have heard called the Bill Evans dominant, but I’m pretty sure it predates Bill.

The B—>C move is super strong as a resolution.


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[equenda]

Playing the BMaj7 (9) Arpeggio: B D# F# A# (C#) over the G7 chord add the M3, #5, M7, #9 and b5.

To my ear I don't like the the F# note (M7) over G7.

In my previous post I said that the DbMaj7 (9) and the AbMaj7 (9) are not a "perfect solution" (for adding tension to the dominant chord), since you do not play the M3 of the G7 chord. (*)

My opinion (which have zero value....) is that is better DO NOT play a good note (M3 of the dominant chord) ....than PLAY a very bad note (M7 of the dominant chord).

Anyway if you like the F# note over G7, non problem at all.

Ettore

(*) The "perfect solution" could be the G superlocrian scale and the arpeggios from this scale (with the Cb note)

[ragman1]

a perpetual newbie at Jazz

If you are indeed a newbie then you don't want to run before you can walk. Some of the stuff here is advanced harmony and really only sounds right when the whole arrangement is played in an advanced style. If you suddenly popped in something very 'out' over a pretty normal-sounding version it'll just sound odd.

The best and most obvious way is for you to play these things yourself. Keep what sounds good to you. Don't, if I may say so, get lost in a lot of words, symbols and theoretical jargon, there's no point to it. Jargon isn't music.

The DbM7 might sound okay over your tune but we don't know what the tune is. That's the trouble, hence asking to see the score if that's okay. Not just that particular measure in isolation but the surrounding measures too. A page of the whole thing would be best if you can do that.

I think there's a misconception that really cool jazz sounds weird, and the weirder the better. That's not true. Advanced jazz is highly skillful and needs an expert to do it properly.

Personally, I don't mind the sound of the DbM7 instead of the G7 because the C note resolves to the B in the CM7. Sounds okay, very final. But arpeggiating the DbM7 over a G7 is slightly different. And presumably what has prompted this thread.

[Christian Miller]

None of it sounds right unless you understand how to phrase. People over concentrate on harmony at the early stages. There are no hip notes, just as there are no wrong notes. There's good players and bad players.

How do you become a good player? There's no set of rules that will make a player sound good.

You need to learn to hear the flow and rhythm of jazz, and the best way to do that is to listen closely and try to copy what you hear until it sinks in. You need to immerse yourself. Be humble.

#1 mistake is not to do that. People think that these books and so on have the answer.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah these conversations always come back to vocabulary.

I always like to think of the opening phrase in Wes’s Misty solo.

[Christian Miller]

Playing the BMaj7 (9) Arpeggio: B D# F# A# (C#) over the G7 chord add the M3, #5, M7, #9 and b5.

To my ear I don't like the the F# note (M7) over G7.

So I don't hear the note on the G7 - I’m hearing where it's going. This is why I said resolving dominant

If you are playing on an extended static dominant sound this note will sound dissonant if you are playing with a backing track, for example. Dissonance itself of course is not a problem if you know how to phrases a resolution but you probably don't want an F# in a G dominant voicing. In the case of resolving dominants this dissonance is a feature not a bug.

The whole point of dominant chords in functional harmony is that they are dissonant and drive things forward. That's why one would alter them to begin with. In bop, this tension is what we use in combination with the swing to create movement toward chords. The modern modal approach makes everything a tonic which is where chord scale stuff comes in.

(That said I rather like
3 x 3 4 3 2
far less dissonant than one might expect.)

Probably my perspective may also come from the fact that I rarely play with backing chords - most often in trios and quartets as the sole harmonist. So if I play a B --> C resolution in my solo, or maybe even to back up a melody that fits this progression it's just going to have the bass behind. But I still think with suitable and reactive piano comping you have more freedom than prescriptive models of jazz harmony might suggest.

But for amateur set ups, truthfully, you are going to have a lot of harmonic clutter going on. (And a lot of piano players who see comping as an opportunity to play fancy chords) So, maybe. It's a growing process for everyone.

In my previous post I said that the DbMaj7 (9) and the AbMaj7 (9) are not a "perfect solution" (for adding tension to the dominant chord), since you do not play the M3 of the G7 chord. (*)

My opinion (which have zero value....) is that is better DO NOT play a good note (M3 of the dominant chord) ....than PLAY a very bad note (M7 of the dominant chord).

Anyway if you like the F# note over G7, non problem at all.

Ettore

(*) The "perfect solution" could be the G superlocrian scale and the arpeggios from this scale (with the Cb note)

OTOH if you look at it from the point of view of resolution, the G altered is less cadentially efficient than Db mixolydian. So if you want harmony to move, more dissonances that resolve by half step, the more dynamic the whole thing is.

B-->C is all half steps. Bmaj7 -> Cmaj7 has a common tone.

Db mixolydian --> C major pentatonic encompasses all the chromatic tones, which I always found neat. So I see tritone subs as a sort of polyphonic enclosure, if that makes any sense at all.

The problem with modern jazz theory is its focus is exclusively vertical (it's a theory of voicings really, not dynamic harmony) and everyone gets in a tizzy about 'wrong notes' in their jazz solos. Which I think the lay person would find hilarious.

As the saying goes, what you play next makes it sound right or wrong. But actually it could be the note several notes later! (due to the magic of implied polyphony)

[Christian Miller]

Just did a quick Autumn Leaves to show how I would personally use this sound. There's no denying it's 'raised eyebrows' but I do like it.

[ragman1]

If only we could hear it :-)

Don't you check these things before you walk away?

[Mick-7]

How do you become a good player? There's no set of rules that will make a player sound good ... #1 mistake is not to do that. People think that these books and so on have the answer.

In other words, we should just ignore Christian's numerous posts re: jazz harmonic theory (including this one?)

The BM7 over G7 sounds like a G harmonic minor sound to me.

Just did a quick Autumn Leaves to show how I would personally use this sound.

If only we could hear it :-)

I think it's out of season...

[Christian Miller]

The link appears to be working through Tapatalk and not my browser. NFI, I don’t want to make it public on my soundcloud account as it’s only a demo.


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[Mick-7]

The link appears to be working through Tapatalk and not my browser. NFI, I don’t want to make it public on my soundcloud account as it’s only a demo.

I think it's the link you posted here that's defective, it's just: "https://soundcloud.com/pages/embed"

I suspect you'll have to copy the actual video link and post it in your reply here, rather than post a link to the SoundCloud webpage it was supposedly embedded on.

[Christian Miller]

In other words, we should just ignore Christian's numerous posts re: jazz harmonic theory (including this one?)

Lol, no. You are messing with me, of course, but I do want to be clear.

What I am saying is that you cant learn to play jazz simply by following prescriptive harmonic rules in a book.

As Ethan Iverson put it: “Chord scale theory is not hard for somebody who already knows how to play jazz.”

The problem being of course that people often seem to have then misapprehension that chord scale theory IS how to play jazz. It is not.


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