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  1. #1

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    Discuss.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I changed the title to one that I thought would be more interesting.

    It seems a lot of jazz education is modelled around the idea of communicating quantifiable information. There's a lot of that on the net. There's a lot of that here. Jazz guitar lessons can veer in that territory.

    This is easy to critique from the point of view of both the history of the music and the nature of musical expression, but what interests me more is how this has occurred as a general trend in jazz education, and whether the internet (youtube etc) can be used for a less positivist approach.

    If that makes any sense.

  4. #3

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    Jazz guitar education is seriously lacking. They talk about changes and how to apply this and that scale over this and that chord. But the guitarists apperances and hair styles are completely uncovered! Internet fills that void of course, but shouldnt it be taught on a college level, the history and analyses of Pat Methenys hair, for example?

  5. #4

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    In other news, here I learn that Roger Scruton doesn't really like Meshuggah:

    Soul Music - AEI

    Not sure how this will be relevant to my essay on the Ethics of Teaching Music on YouTube, but I feel oddly edified by the revelation.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Jazz guitar education is seriously lacking. They talk about changes and how to apply this and that scale over this and that chord. But the guitarists apperances and hair styles are completely uncovered! Internet fills that void of course, but shouldnt it be taught on a college level, the history and analyses of Pat Methenys hair, for example?
    Write a Thesis on this or GTFO.

  7. #6

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    What you can do can be positively explained.

    What you can do with it is in the realm of the abstract.

    I've distilled basic jazz playing down into a pamphlet. No need for a book. I should just publish it. It'd be hilarious.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    What you can do can be positively explained.

    What you can do with it is in the realm of the abstract.

    I've distilled basic jazz playing down into a pamphlet. No need for a book. I should just publish it. It'd be hilarious.
    Twelve rules for jazz

  9. #8

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    Christian,

    it could be influence of scientific positivism of early 20th century.

    Positivism as it is turned out to be very efficient philosophy in the scientific society but in in 'old school' academies there was still quite clear distinction between 'exact sciences' and 'humantarians' - though both sometimes could use the same methods - there was an important feature of 'humanitarian' science, it was dependent on the perception of human being. The exact sciences easily operated with the notion of objectivity.

    But the influence of science and later technology became more and more inportant for society in general - so the tools of 'exact science' started to penetrate first 'humanitarian sciences' and then they finally reached a common level of an average person who has no idea of positivis, pgysics or whatever is going there.
    The notiosn of 'objectivity', 'progress', 'staistical truth' etc. became a part of daily life - maybe in disgiuse of course... but I personally know people that use the word of 'objective' instead of 'true', 'fair', 'real'.
    People do not care much that the idea of linear progress did not exist ever and so and so on.

    In cultural enviroment (where scientists and humanitarians belong) there were periods of unions and oppositon.

    Coming back to your question.. I think that it is not only jazz guiatr education. It is any area where the educational approach is relatively young and lacks academic groud of tradition... they are a bit wild and they pick up the first idea that seems solid enough for them.. and to me it is quite natural that they pick positivistic conceptions becasue they seem to be associated with serious systematic approach.
    (This concers HIP education too by the way).

    It reminds me a bit of a kid who wants to play a professor - what would he do? he would try to imitate the cliches and images of scientific academism without really getting into how and to what they are really applied...

    Exact sciences mostly operate with lots of experimental information that they sort out, classify and compare which makes it look like a huge cell system to be filled in with data.
    Another point is that this can be inherited and be developed independently from the scientists who discovered it.
    This is almost impossible in arts and humanitarian sciences where great ideas are usually strongly connected with the personalities that developed them.. and actually the conception of 'school' in arts and humanitarian sciences means nothing but the atmosphere where the genius can grow and offer probably the opposite idea.


    So to mthis happens becasue of general ignorance of teachers: they are no teacher though sometimes maybe good players, and they try to look around for what is considered to be 'academically correct', 'serious education' - and quantity of complicated information is still a sign of seriousness...

    Actually the best classical teachers I met were not scientifically academic too... most of them ignored traditional books used in concervatories, systematic methods relying on the personal contact, conversation, practical process.

    And last but not least - youtube as you said... this is one way communication mostly - often (and it is a shame!) directed at the most possible income (likes) which is (let us call things what they are) disgusting.
    Teachers should not sell themselves to students in every lesson hunting for likes and following the trends of the potential audience - they should be invited.
    So again they have to use social cliches and - they become a part od showbiz with their lessons too - they have to entertain too, they are like series makers who check the feedback and try to keep ratings... they have to drop in something new every week -- this where quantity shows pu too... and by the way this how many people watch these educational vids... they just watch it for fun ... becasue the teach is charismatic or it made funny - they even give advice like you could add more pictures (people today do not read and even seem to stop listening - they want to look only)... can you imagine someone at the University telling a professor: add more picture next time... you know no likes - no job... (democracy in direct action - people chooses, people votes)

    Last but not least - people like when it is on their level.. recently I saw a video of one of the most popular vlogger in russian net. It was a 1 hour video of walking around NY where he lives and just telling what he sees in more or less coherent language (without lots of hm... like.. and almost no f*ck etc) - it is made with quality and it is fun for a few minutes becasue of the presence effect... but I cannot imagine watching ot for an hour.
    But people do.. they say: thank you for your great Art (you see this is what Art is today)...
    The same concerns teaching: ok if you want to teach me you should behave like a teacher (lots of serious knowledge and templates) but it should be fun you know so I would not feel humiliated..


    I improvize a bit and may be went a bit off the road... but still I think it is about what you were talking about.. no?

  10. #9

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    Yes, that is my perception, too.

    I'm in a slightly privileged position of having studied a STEM subject at uni, and now being a student in the humanities. (I don't think if I was an actual music performance student I would consider myself as being in the humanities at all actually.)

    Science does not, in fact, operate in the way assumed by non scientists. It's not a linear thing at all actually.... The idea of scientific proof is most popularly defined by Popper, who was adamant that he was not a Positivist. On the other hand there's Kuhn... Science is done by people.

    In fact one of the greatest critics of positivism in education was himself a scientist by training - Michael Polanyi.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Discuss.
    Steve Kuhn is really the alter ego of Thomas Kuhn and The Saga of Harrison Crabfeathers was originally called the Blather of Rudolf Carnap.

    John

  12. #11

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    All I can say is that I'm positive it's not for everyone.

    I survived graduate studies in Jazz at Indiana University. I really learned how to do it many years later from Jimmy Bruno's very simplified way of looking at improvisation.

  13. #12

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    I'm also detecting a trace of Adornite grumpiness in your post Jonah...

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I changed the title to one that I thought would be more interesting.

    It seems a lot of jazz education is modelled around the idea of communicating quantifiable information. There's a lot of that on the net. There's a lot of that here. Jazz guitar lessons can veer in that territory.

    This is easy to critique from the point of view of both the history of the music and the nature of musical expression, but what interests me more is how this has occurred as a general trend in jazz education, and whether the internet (youtube etc) can be used for a less positivist approach.

    If that makes any sense.
    Without any concrete examples, and a definition of what you mean by "positivism" and "quantifiable information", it does not make any sense to me.

    John

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM
    All I can say is that I'm positive it's not for everyone.

    I survived graduate studies in Jazz at Indiana University. I really learned how to do it many years later from Jimmy Bruno's very simplified way of looking at improvisation.
    What do you think was the problem with your studies, if you can pin it down?

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    spoiler alert: there aren't any.
    Oh but that's exactly why it's such good fodder for an essay. The ethical problems just go on and on.....

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I'm in a slightly privileged position of having studied a STEM subject at uni,.
    astrology if memory serves

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    astrology if memory serves
    Stop being such a Sagittarius

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    What do you think was the problem with your studies, if you can pin it down?
    Honestly, I think it was me, more than anything. David Baker was an absolutely great guy, and very helpful to me, personally. The program was great for me, with regard to historical perspective, and performance opportunities with good ensembles. The improvisation classes were good for understanding and regurgitating the basics of Bebop. To "internalize" the concepts and make them part of the vocabulary required more time than the semester or 2 semesters would allow.

    There was some CST with regard to ear training, and that put me "into the weeds", somewhat.
    An ear training quiz: Professor Baker would play a chord on the piano, and the altered extensions would dictate what scale choice we would write for an answer.

    I understood the theory perfectly (because I was teaching college level theory at another school at the same time), but my analytical nature was always a barrier from being able to just play it. He didn't really present the bebop vocabulary in that way, be he did put emphasis on recognizing and playing the right scale for the right chord on those ear training quizzes. That stuck with me and haunted me for way too long. ...maybe 20 years, before I got past it. One of the many reasons I don't claim to be a jazz guitarist.

    I realize my answer doesn't even touch on the question - "Should I get a jazz degree if I want to be a jazz musician?"

    SM
    Last edited by ScottM; 09-18-2019 at 03:08 PM.

  20. #19

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    Positivism is the established principle in education for the same reason that democracy is the established form of political organization.
    Not because democracy doesn't suck. It sucks royally. But every other system that's been tried before sucked even more.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    Without any concrete examples, and a definition of what you mean by "positivism" and "quantifiable information", it does not make any sense to me.

    John
    I'll back to you when I have a moment to formulate a sensible response.

  22. #21

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    An example of positivism in jazz education: Don't play the changes on ii V's, just think and play the dominant scale over these two chords when you're playing bebop. This particular piece of educational wisdom comes from monumental sources like Barry Harris or Joe Pass.
    Yet if take a look at the head of Joy Spring, a bebop classic from a bebop genius. Check all the split bar ii V's in the head. You'll find in (almost) all of these ii V's, the third beat (where ii goes to V) is the third of the dominant. Go figure!
    I see ii V changes played in many bebop lines I transcribed. Bert Ligon's Linear Harmony book is full of examples taken from real records from bebop artists where ii V's are outlined. That is, minor to dominant change is emphasized explicitly in the line.

    Don't get me wrong I'm not criticizing this particular educational simplification. But that's what it is. It's not a rule. It's not always true. But that may not be too obvious to a student who is new to jazz.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I'll back to you when I have a moment to formulate a sensible response.
    I await with 'bated breath ... FYI, I have an undergrad degree in philosophy from a college with an "Anglo-American/Analytic" slant (though that wasn't really my thing), so when someone says "positivism" I hear "logical positivism" and the chain of thought that runs through there (e.g, Peirce, Wittgenstein, Russell, the Vienna school, Popper, etc.), as opposed to "accent chu ate the positive" (though that's an infinitely preferable sense). I couldn't tell if you're using it in that academic philosophy or some other sense.

    John
    Last edited by John A.; 09-18-2019 at 01:18 PM.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Positivism is the established principle in education for the same reason that democracy is the established form of political organization.
    Not because democracy doesn't suck. It sucks royally. But every other system that's been tried before sucked even more.
    Also in response to John A.

    Education is increasingly forced into a positivist mindset in general - league tables, exam results etc. This does not mean it has to be this way. Quantitative assessment, while important, is not the only meaningful form of assessment, and in fact any real world education forms a combination of the two.

    For instance, in music college, you may have harmony exams (classroom, transmission style education, quantitative assessment) but also ensemble recitals (which are problem solving, experiential and qualitatively assessed.)

    Positivism would hold that only the former is of real value. But of course that situation is alien to just about everyone's actual experience of music, and of course the apprenticeship and community based situated learning is how everyone learned music until relatively recently...

    Positivism is obviously an important current in Enlightenment thought but to equate it with the institutions of democracy (which of course also include the judicial system, the constitution, political speech, lobbying, protest and so on) is I think a little superficial. I agree with you and WInston Churchill, though. It's easy for us in the West to become disillusioned and complacent about the imperfections and limitations of our system of government, but we must not become so.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    I await with 'bated breath ... FYI, I have an undergrad degree in philosophy from a college with an "Anglo-American/Analytic" slant (though that wasn't really my thing), so when someone says "positivism" I hear "logical positivism" and the chain of thought that runs through there (e.g, Pearce, Wittgenstein, Russell, the Vienna school, Popper, etc.), as opposed to "accent chu ate the positive" (though that's an infinitely preferable sense). I couldn't tell if you're using it in that academic philosophy or some other sense.

    John
    I think I'm using the much looser meaning. Positivism in this sense implies a lot less intellectual rigour, which in the education literature appears to be a near synonym for scientism or some such. But I have yet to read Polanyi who I suspect would frame things a lot more tightly.

    Logical Positivism =/= Positivism BTW

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    An example of positivism in jazz education: Don't play the changes on ii V's, just think and play the dominant scale over these two chords when you're playing bebop. This particular piece of educational wisdom comes from monumental sources like Barry Harris or Joe Pass.
    Yet if take a look at the head of Joy Spring, a bebop classic from a bebop genius. Check all the split bar ii V's in the head. You'll find in (almost) all of these ii V's, the third beat (where ii goes to V) is the third of the dominant. Go figure!
    I see ii V changes played in many bebop lines I transcribed. Bert Ligon's Linear Harmony book is full of examples taken from real records from bebop artists where ii V's are outlined. That is, minor to dominant change is emphasized explicitly in the line.

    Don't get me wrong I'm not criticizing this particular educational simplification. But that's what it is. It's not a rule. It's not always true. But that may not be too obvious to a student who is new to jazz.
    How is that more or less positivist than playing the ii-V?

  27. #26

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    Also Popper thought of himself as an anti positivist?

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    How is that more or less positivist than playing the ii-V?
    It isn't. Saying play the changes on ii-V would also be positivist. My point is positivism in education serves as a pedagogical simplification. The phenomena that is being though cannot be feasibly broken down logically. So any pretension of logical intellectualization is simply an educational tool. The student is expected to eventually transcend such simplifications.

    My analogy with democracy was also not literal. I meant it more loosely that just like democracy, positivism in education is not meant to be perfect but a practical, feasible principle that works better than known alternatives. That's for the scale at which they are required to work with the resources available.

  29. #28

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    Also Tal175, I don't think you quite understand how the Barry thing works in practice. There's a difference between the conceptual chunking and what you actually play. The BH thing encapsulates the ii-V outlining you see in many lines and more besides, it's just conceptually it's all rolled into one scale.

    You will still play the same shit. If you transcribed Barry, Pasquale, or heaven forfend, me, you'd find ii-V lines.

    Any, that's a bit OT.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Also Tal175, I don't think you quite understand how the Barry thing works in practice. There's a difference between the conceptual chunking and what you actually play. The BH thing encapsulates the ii-V outlining you see in many lines and more besides, it's just conceptually it's all rolled into one scale.

    You will still play the same shit. If you transcribed Barry, Pasquale, or heaven forfend, me, you'd find ii-V lines.

    Any, that's a bit OT.
    I think your assertion that I don't understand BH is completely unfounded and speculative.

    Of course you can find ii V's in their playings as well. That's my point.
    Think about it he doesn't say play the dominant scale over ii V I's. Although that would work too (all the same scale). How about iii vi ii V? Just play the dominant. NO. There is a subtle difference here.
    When he says play the dominant over ii V. He means you don't have to play that change. Or think connecting 2 chords or connecting them over the bar.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Also Popper thought of himself as an anti positivist?
    I don't know, but he can wail on that harmonica.

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Positivism is the established principle in education for the same reason that democracy is the established form of political organization.
    Not because democracy doesn't suck. It sucks royally. But every other system that's been tried before sucked even more.
    I feel a Fezzik the giant moment coming on.

    John

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I think your assertion that I don't understand BH is completely unfounded and speculative.

    Of course you can find ii V's in their playings as well. That's my point.
    Think about it he doesn't say play the dominant scale over ii V I's. Although that would work too (all the same scale). How about iii vi ii V? Just play the dominant. NO. There is a subtle difference here.
    When he says play the dominant over ii V. He means you don't have to play that change. Or think connecting 2 chords or connecting them over the bar.
    OK

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Also Popper thought of himself as an anti positivist?
    Yes, he did, but some view him as a positivist (sometimes perjoratively, sometimes not). I think there's truth to both characterizations, in that he was a strong critic of the Vienna circle's logical reductivism and of the verifiability principle, but he was methodologically very much in the same stream. I took a seminar in college that encompassed Peirce, the Vienna Circle, Wittgenstein and Popper, and maybe just because I studied them all in one swell foop I see them as of a piece, but other people lump them together for reasons that I'm sure are better thought out than mine.

    John

  35. #34

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    Swell foop lol

    We got large dollops of Popper. Scientists love Popper.

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I changed the title to one that I thought would be more interesting.

    It seems a lot of jazz education is modelled around the idea of communicating quantifiable information. There's a lot of that on the net. There's a lot of that here. Jazz guitar lessons can veer in that territory.

    This is easy to critique from the point of view of both the history of the music and the nature of musical expression, but what interests me more is how this has occurred as a general trend in jazz education, and whether the internet (youtube etc) can be used for a less positivist approach.

    If that makes any sense.
    In post-secondary education circles here in the US, there is enormous pressure to articulate "measurable outcomes" in all the academic disciplines, even things like English literature. This has led to a tendency to frame educational aspirations, course objectives, program goals, etc. in terms of quantifiable, assessable benchmarks. In teaching languages, we have specific which conjugations, declensions, etc. are to be mastered. So musical education has had to find a way to frame learning outcomes in measurable terms. This plays directly into the hands of chord-scale theory, mechanical tempo expectations, etc. It all gets much more quantified and objectified. So a student who can run X number of specified scales at Y tempo has met the objectives.

    All this pressure is coming from the accreditation associations. I teach at a theological school, and we actually do have courses on prayer and spirituality. Can you actually imagine what measurable outcomes look like in prayer and spirituality? Like, you must work 3 miracles, one of which must be a medically verifiable faith healing... seriously, it's crushing the life out of much of humane learning. It also means the really important stuff that we do in class is not mentioned in the syllabi and not specified in course objectives. The really formative stuff goes underground, below the radar.

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    In post-secondary education circles here in the US, there is enormous pressure to articulate "measurable outcomes" in all the academic disciplines, even things like English literature. This has led to a tendency to frame educational aspirations, course objectives, program goals, etc. in terms of quantifiable, assessable benchmarks. In teaching languages, we have specific which conjugations, declensions, etc. are to be mastered. So musical education has had to find a way to frame learning outcomes in measurable terms. This plays directly into the hands of chord-scale theory, mechanical tempo expectations, etc. It all gets much more quantified and objectified. So a student who can run X number of specified scales at Y tempo has met the objectives.

    All this pressure is coming from the accreditation associations. I teach at a theological school, and we actually do have courses on prayer and spirituality. Can you actually imagine what measurable outcomes look like in prayer and spirituality? Like, you must work 3 miracles, one of which must be a medically verifiable faith healing... seriously, it's crushing the life out of much of humane learning. It also means the really important stuff that we do in class is not mentioned in the syllabi and not specified in course objectives. The really formative stuff goes underground, below the radar.
    Yep.

    (I mean it was always thus to some extent. I remember Beato saying the only reason why they came up with all that CST stuff was cos they needed a syllabus to start off with. (They could have taught Barry instead but that’s another flame war.))

    But yeah I had exactly this conversation with a blues guitarist, undergrad student of mine ‘they want me to put more scales in my improvisation’ - why???? HE’S A BLUES GUITARIST YOU PLONKERS! Can’t you assess him on how well he plays the blues???

    So yeah, I’m not going to do great in education haha. Oh well.

    *Breathes and repeats to himself ‘I am not Robin Williams in Dead Poets Society’*

  38. #37

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    Wow, a load to read. I would be a liar stating I understand each one's thoughts above :-)

    Positivism lacks to explain how we just learn (than keep it forever) to bicycle.
    Maybe many thing in listening to and making music is similar knowledge to knowing how to bicycle, and positivism's "interpreted through reason and logic" exclusive dogma just does not fit there. (I am not stating that there are no parts of being jazz musician what are not related to learn and interpret reason and logic, just there are maybe more important parts)

    However the "information derived from sensory experience" is deeply true, in the sense that really listening to a Miles solo is exactly that: taking information. Unfortunately (and obviously) a tutorial voutube video will emphasize "just see this simple trick and you will be a great artist" message instead "never see my channel again, go away close your eyes and listen ten times a Bill Evans tune". (I could name 100s of musicians, just had to pick one.)

    ***

    The youtube boom is not related to positivism and also not exclusive to jazz guitar, not even to music education. Maybe it is more related to some common human behaviour form: The uncontrolled (by ethic) motivation to take advantage on others if there is a possibility on the video maker's side, and the wishful thinking and laziness on the viewer side. Cheap promises always found their way. But this is not new, it is in the Bible stories, the novels, the operas and in the human history.

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Swell foop lol

    We got large dollops of Popper. Scientists love Popper.
    In physics, the relativity guys tend to, but the quantum guys usually go more for the Spin Doctors.

    John

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Write a Thesis on this or GTFO.
    Write a thesis? Have you read my posts? I can't write for shit.

    I'm trying to find positivism in jazz education, but feel like being scolded by a mean teacher.

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yep.

    (I mean it was always thus to some extent. I remember Beato saying the only reason why they came up with all that CST stuff was cos they needed a syllabus to start off with. (They could have taught Barry instead but that’s another flame war.))

    But yeah I had exactly this conversation with a blues guitarist, undergrad student of mine ‘they want me to put more scales in my improvisation’ - why???? HE’S A BLUES GUITARIST YOU PLONKERS! Can’t you assess him on how well he plays the blues???

    So yeah, I’m not going to do great in education haha. Oh well.

    *Breathes and repeats to himself ‘I am not Robin Williams in Dead Poets Society’*
    Somewhere in my education I fell into reading Michael Polanyi, books like Personal Knowledge and The Tacit Dimension. He observes how our conscious and explicitly articulated learning is often shadowed or paralleled by a kind of knowledge that is inarticulate (or not yet articulate), "tacit," more embodied, and less focused. A professor I had used this diagram and talked about how fully integrated personal knowledge incorporates both. You'd think academic music performance programs would be all over a model like this, but...
    Positivism in jazz education-img_4580-jpg

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    In post-secondary education circles here in the US, there is enormous pressure to articulate "measurable outcomes" in all the academic disciplines, even things like English literature. This has led to a tendency to frame educational aspirations, course objectives, program goals, etc. in terms of quantifiable, assessable benchmarks. In teaching languages, we have specific which conjugations, declensions, etc. are to be mastered. So musical education has had to find a way to frame learning outcomes in measurable terms. This plays directly into the hands of chord-scale theory, mechanical tempo expectations, etc. It all gets much more quantified and objectified. So a student who can run X number of specified scales at Y tempo has met the objectives.

    All this pressure is coming from the accreditation associations. I teach at a theological school, and we actually do have courses on prayer and spirituality. Can you actually imagine what measurable outcomes look like in prayer and spirituality? Like, you must work 3 miracles, one of which must be a medically verifiable faith healing... seriously, it's crushing the life out of much of humane learning. It also means the really important stuff that we do in class is not mentioned in the syllabi and not specified in course objectives. The really formative stuff goes underground, below the radar.
    I love that part in the book of Matthew where Jesus delivers the Sermon at the Podium before the last Assessment.

    John

  43. #42

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    Why not refer to a 2019 example curriculum from a real live school of note, and provide a critique?

    Berklee
    UNT
    MSM
    USC

    In other words, instead of talking around something with generalities, address it directly. And course by course, frosh through senior.

  44. #43

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    As far as jazz education, academia is bogus, and it's hard to sell a positive spin, unless you are a member, or were a student and you have to justify it, to justify your involvement.

    Jazz should be taught by American jazz griots....that is positive jazz education.

  45. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Oh but that's exactly why it's such good fodder for an essay. The ethical problems just go on and on.....
    The thing that strikes me the most about the "ethics" of Youtube is the fact that they are largely controlled by the algorithm itself. Forget about all of the other issues with AI. When it's actually steering ETHICS much more directly than almost any other variable, you're getting into craziness.

    "Turn your playing around in 10 minutes using these 3 simple strategies" isn't an issue of laziness , ignorance or anything else to do with the character of the TEACHERS as much as its to do with the algorithm basically insisting that you boil everything down to something like that.

  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    As far as jazz education, academia is bogus, and it's hard to sell a positive spin, unless you are a member, or were a student and you have to justify it, to justify your involvement.

    Jazz should be taught by American jazz griots....that is positive jazz education.
    You mean jazz greats? Quite a few of them teach at universities now.

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    You mean jazz greats? Quite a few of them teach at universities now.
    Out of desperation.

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Out of desperation.
    So What? Jeff Matz teaches art at high school. Is that also "out of desperation"? (no offense Jeff).

    You could say we all work out of desperation, unless we're independently wealthy.

    Who would hold their current job if they were worth $10M plus?

  49. #48

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    I copied these definitions from the Internet after asking Dr. Google. I didn't really see much of that in my studies as a music major at Berklee and other schools. I think this thread is a reach. Something to talk about while sipping a bit of Cognac. Bottoms up!



    • 1. a philosophical system that holds that every rationally justifiable assertion can be scientifically verified or is capable of logical or mathematical proof, and that therefore rejects metaphysics and theism.

      2. the theory that laws are to be understood as social rules, valid because they are enacted by authority or derive logically from existing decisions, and that ideal or moral considerations (e.g., that a rule is unjust) should not limit the scope or operation of the law

  50. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    So What? Jeff Matz teaches art at high school. Is that also "out of desperation"? (no offense Jeff).

    You could say we all work out of desperation, unless we're independently wealthy.

    Who would hold their current job if they were worth $10M plus?
    I work for a software company. That doesn't mean I agree with their coding practices, existing corporate culture with regards to design decisions etc. So my participation in the company is not a testament to my approval of how they develop software. I still have to follow these practices whether I agree with them or not. Despite that I even mostly enjoy the work I do.
    Moreover I went to school with the specific goal to became a software developer. Unlike jazz greats who I suppose didn't start their music career in hopes one day finding themselves teaching at a collage.

  51. #50

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    What I mean is jazz greats joining jazz programs does not mean that they don't find the particular paradigm that takes place in institutionalized jazz education problematic. It may or may not be true.