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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    Substitute service for product, and it changes nothing in what I said. I had one particularly worthless instructor in college. It did occur to me to lodge a complaint about this instructor. It did not occur to me ask for my money back because I did not see myself as a consumer.

    That's the point - your transactional view of education is just one view if it. But you're expressing it as though education is universally and exclusively as you see it.

    John
    Not that any of this matters to readers here but since you shared your history I'll do a little of the same.

    I had a few turkey instructors as well, all in undergrad studies. I DID complain about them, without delay or reservation, and why not? The complaints achieved the desired results, the fair and equitable results. And after all, they graded my weekly homework, and mid-term and final tests. They held me accountable, and I did likewise. No exceptions for either party.

    I paid for my college with my own hard-earned money. I started working when I was 10. So, refunds? Past a certain point in the semester there is no refund, up until that point there is. If both parties accept that deal... I have dropped courses early and late, and was refunded accordingly.

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  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    I paid for my college with my own hard-earned money. I started working when I was 10. So, refunds? Past a certain point in the semester there is no refund, up until that point there is. If both parties accept that deal... I have dropped courses early and late, and was refunded accordingly.
    My experience is not particular about jazz education, but having literally 100s of high level 40 -120 hours (science) course kept in my back I hope my experience and conclusions may add something to the topic, particularly this pay/buy thing

    In a bit more abstract higher level I would like to see it as responsibility. There are two roles in this scenario, the professor and the student. In every role in the life the most important and useful thing to thought about is what is one's responsibility in that particular role (professor, student, parent, older brother/sister, citizen, etc). So the professor have her/his responsibility, no doubt, we can, and we must expect the professor to accomplish it in a good, acceptable level. Those responsibilities are wide spread, just some keys: be able to: prove his competence, motivate students, give students tools and mindset to improve after the course/semester.

    However to accomplish those goals, a good professor sometimes must do not agree with the student and many times must pull out the student from its comfort zone, and of course periodically must evaluate student's progress. Students not always will like this.

    We can see education as a two fold thing. Students never (literally never) talks their responsibility. Read back this thread, we have 100s of sentences about how education is bad, how the bad methods and bad professors ruin the whole thing etc, etc, but not a word about students and their responsibilities.

    The most natural human behaviour, especially in modern western societies, to blame others our failures, and credit ourself for our success. This is a healthy thing for our psyche, but really a bad approach when we try to analyze something to find out what went wrong, and how could that improve.

    I always have doubts, when I hear complaining students. First of all, by definition the student may not have all the competencies to evaluate a professors work, similarly as I have not competency to evaluate a hard working coal miner's work quality and performance. (unless I worked 1 year as coal mine worker) A working system could be: All participant focus on its own responsibilities and do their best. Just because the natural asymmetry of the professor/student scenario there are equal responsibility for all who participates in a particular role.

    Bottom line: You can not pay for real knowledge. You must learn it, you must earn it. Focus on what you do, instead of formulating your expectations what others should do. Our self supporting psyche and "demanding" mindset is not so useful to give advice on what should be really change.

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    The most natural human behaviour, especially in modern western societies, to blame others our failures, and credit ourself for our success. This is a healthy thing for our psyche.
    I don’t think it is.

  5. #104

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    I would like to think there is a middle way between that and this though:



    Brandon’s obviously earned the right to say this - but then jazz educators are often selected for their playing more than their teaching.

    I would like to be a jazz educator. Partly for lifestyle reasons, but mostly because I find teaching interesting.

    However, in order to do that, you also need to be credible player. I need to be a better player, more established at least, I feel to move forwards with this. So I gotta practice and hustle too!

    It’s certainly not those who can’t teach. It’s more, teaching is the best jazz gig for those over the age of 30. There is no such thing as a full time jazz performance career.

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    My experience is not particular about jazz education, but having literally 100s of high level 40 -120 hours (science) course kept in my back I hope my experience and conclusions may add something to the topic, particularly this pay/buy thing

    In a bit more abstract higher level I would like to see it as responsibility. There are two roles in this scenario, the professor and the student. In every role in the life the most important and useful thing to thought about is what is one's responsibility in that particular role (professor, student, parent, older brother/sister, citizen, etc). So the professor have her/his responsibility, no doubt, we can, and we must expect the professor to accomplish it in a good, acceptable level. Those responsibilities are wide spread, just some keys: be able to: prove his competence, motivate students, give students tools and mindset to improve after the course/semester.

    However to accomplish those goals, a good professor sometimes must do not agree with the student and many times must pull out the student from its comfort zone, and of course periodically must evaluate student's progress. Students not always will like this.

    We can see education as a two fold thing. Students never (literally never) talks their responsibility. Read back this thread, we have 100s of sentences about how education is bad, how the bad methods and bad professors ruin the whole thing etc, etc, but not a word about students and their responsibilities.

    The most natural human behaviour, especially in modern western societies, to blame others our failures, and credit ourself for our success. This is a healthy thing for our psyche, but really a bad approach when we try to analyze something to find out what went wrong, and how could that improve.

    I always have doubts, when I hear complaining students. First of all, by definition the student may not have all the competencies to evaluate a professors work, similarly as I have not competency to evaluate a hard working coal miner's work quality and performance. (unless I worked 1 year as coal mine worker) A working system could be: All participant focus on its own responsibilities and do their best. Just because the natural asymmetry of the professor/student scenario there are equal responsibility for all who participates in a particular role.

    Bottom line: You can not pay for real knowledge. You must learn it, you must earn it. Focus on what you do, instead of formulating your expectations what others should do. Our self supporting psyche and "demanding" mindset is not so useful to give advice on what should be really change.
    Yea, for real! Like the most pathetic thing would be to blame a music teacher for your shortcomings. If you think the jazz education in colleges isn't good, go learn on your own, who stops you!

    In all honesty, you actually should be learning on your own mostly. The only mentors I fully trusted were my CD collection. I took guidance from music that inspired me. I don't know if my teachers were any good as teachers, but I know they all could play. I took what I needed and forgot what I don't.

    Any shortcomings I might have in my career is only my fault, not education. I'd never ask my money back! Fortunately, I was blessed to get my education for free or very little cost, but still, I stand by what I said.

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    My experience is not particular about jazz education, but having literally 100s of high level 40 -120 hours (science) course kept in my back I hope my experience and conclusions may add something to the topic, particularly this pay/buy thing

    In a bit more abstract higher level I would like to see it as responsibility. There are two roles in this scenario, the professor and the student. In every role in the life the most important and useful thing to thought about is what is one's responsibility in that particular role (professor, student, parent, older brother/sister, citizen, etc). So the professor have her/his responsibility, no doubt, we can, and we must expect the professor to accomplish it in a good, acceptable level. Those responsibilities are wide spread, just some keys: be able to: prove his competence, motivate students, give students tools and mindset to improve after the course/semester.

    However to accomplish those goals, a good professor sometimes must do not agree with the student and many times must pull out the student from its comfort zone, and of course periodically must evaluate student's progress. Students not always will like this.

    We can see education as a two fold thing. Students never (literally never) talks their responsibility. Read back this thread, we have 100s of sentences about how education is bad, how the bad methods and bad professors ruin the whole thing etc, etc, but not a word about students and their responsibilities.

    The most natural human behaviour, especially in modern western societies, to blame others our failures, and credit ourself for our success. This is a healthy thing for our psyche, but really a bad approach when we try to analyze something to find out what went wrong, and how could that improve.

    I always have doubts, when I hear complaining students. First of all, by definition the student may not have all the competencies to evaluate a professors work, similarly as I have not competency to evaluate a hard working coal miner's work quality and performance. (unless I worked 1 year as coal mine worker) A working system could be: All participant focus on its own responsibilities and do their best. Just because the natural asymmetry of the professor/student scenario there are equal responsibility for all who participates in a particular role.

    Bottom line: You can not pay for real knowledge. You must learn it, you must earn it. Focus on what you do, instead of formulating your expectations what others should do. Our self supporting psyche and "demanding" mindset is not so useful to give advice on what should be really change.
    Thanks. But that is all pretty obvious. Also, in post #93 I mentioned the students responsibility, so you're wrong about that. Another note, most instructors are NOT "professors" even though we often refer to them with that elevated title (which they haven't earned).

    I've been working since 1968 (51 years). I've been going to college off and on since 1976 (43 years). Different majors, different areas of study, grad and undergrad. I have a pretty good handle on how work, school, and life operate by now.

    Oh, a minor point about "real knowledge". It might be better to say "real expertise". Philosophy teaches us that knowledge is gained by one or more of the following: (1) Experience, (2) Authority, (3) A Priori.

    I believe that your point is referencing #1 as the most effective/useful. Most would probably agree. I suppose #3 would be like an instinct. #2 is the interesting one. It says that if a knowledgeable person (like a professor) tells me something, that I then "know" that very same thing. (as long as it's accurate and true, of course).

    For example, here are some truths that increased our knowledge, from "authorities"

    We need to switch to the Lydian Chromatic Concept
    We need to follow Barry Harris

    Plus these nuggets of solid gold:
    2008: Al Gore Predicts Ice-Free Arctic by 2013
    2009: Prince Charles Says we Have 96 Months to Save World
    2009: UK Prime Minister Says 50 Days to ‘Save The Planet From Catastrophe’
    2009: Al Gore Moves 2013 Prediction of Ice-Free Arctic to 2014
    1988: Maldive Islands will Be Underwater by 2018
    1989: Rising Sea Levels will Obliterate Nations if Nothing Done by 2000
    2005 : Manhattan Underwater by 2015
    2002: Famine In 10 Years If We Don’t Give Up Eating Fish, Meat, and Dairy
    Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 09-22-2019 at 11:39 AM.

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    I would like to be a jazz educator. Partly for lifestyle reasons, but mostly because I find teaching interesting.

    However, in order to do that, you also need to be credible player. I need to be a better player, more established at least, I feel to move forwards with this. So I gotta practice and hustle too!

    It’s certainly not those who can’t teach. It’s more, teaching is the best jazz gig for those over the age of 30. There is no such thing as a full time jazz performance career.

    You might want to think about investing a few years as a foreign exchange student.

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  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    You might want to think about investing a few years as a foreign exchange student.

    Welcome | Division of Jazz Studies

    Jazz Studies Degree Plans | College of Music | Graduate Studies
    That would be nice.

    I fear that ship has sailed for me. Plenty of young guys doing it though :-)

  10. #109

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    Here's some REAL entertainment for red-blooded men & women everywhere.

    But, I warn you, don't let yourselves become overstimulated by exciting talk, extravagant claims, horn fanfares and shapely mechanical beauties: