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  1. #51

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    Yes community colleges in the right town are great, and are "feeder schools" to the big ones just across town. (and their instructors just may have graduated from the bigger schools).

    And yes, dirt cheap. A great option for a young person trying to decide, or an older person trying to have fun...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    It’s true that a community college can include beginners as well as more advanced musicians. I don’t find this particularly hampering, as we have a number of combos and classes for various levels at the college that I attend. Our department had 9 combos this past semester. 3 of them were really, really good and able to get some nice experience gigging in the community. All 9 of them got to do at least one gig. And personally, I love the idea of inclusion anyway. On the flip side of this, I’ve met some amazing musicians who were sought out by 4-year music departments, but did not yet have a strong enough GPA or enough academic requirements fulfilled to get into the school itself. Some other advanced players attended CC, because the 4 years get increasingly expensive every year and have simply priced folks out.

    eQUOTE=fep;952237]Recently, I have someone I collaborate with across country. We send tracks back and forth as we record a tune. It's a great outlet for my music and keeps me focused and motivated. It helps that my buddy is good at a bunch of instruments. That's as close to being in a band as I would want.

    The community college I went to, top rate professors. I had a professor/phd that was teaching at UCSD which is international known for avant-garde classical. She left and taught at the community college as she preferred the whole employment package. Some of the adjunct teachers were local pros that taught at both schools. The difference though is in the average quality of the fellow students with the community college having some students that couldn't get into the 4 year colleges music program. But, the price sure is right at the community college, pretty close to free.[/QUOTE]

  4. #53

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    I went to music school for 2 years out of highschool. I don't regret a minute of it. I graduated debt free by working at a fish counter in the super market.

  5. #54

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    A few years ago, I tried to enroll at a junior college to take a course with an accomplished local Jazz Guitarist. The price was awesomely cheap. Unfortunately, after repeated visits to the college (at the expense of taking time off from work), I could not get past the enrollment process. They were too unorganized and I guess the Jazz course was very low on their priority.

    I tried to meet with the department head but the person was never there when she was supposed to be. I eventually gave up.

    I think it would have been such a great opportunity.

  6. #55

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    Quastions:
    Good teacher-can be also a good player?...
    Good player-can be also a good teacher?...
    ...anway I learn a lot from good players...:-)

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    A few years ago, I tried to enroll at a junior college to take a course with an accomplished local Jazz Guitarist. The price was awesomely cheap. Unfortunately, after repeated visits to the college (at the expense of taking time off from work), I could not get past the enrollment process. They were too unorganized and I guess the Jazz course was very low on their priority.

    I tried to meet with the department head but the person was never there when she was supposed to be. I eventually gave up.

    I think it would have been such a great opportunity.
    that is aggravating to hear!!!

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    Quastions:
    Good teacher-can be also a good player?...
    Good player-can be also a good teacher?...
    ...anway I learn a lot from good players...:-)
    of course can be, but one does not necessarily mean the other.

  9. #58

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    Generally I'm not in support of people spending 4 years in expensive music school, but I will say this...there's definitely a lot to be gained from immersion and I'm sure that applies to jazz. Living/eating/breathing music for a while - no doubt that would help one improve. Having said, in my experience, if you really apply yourself you can achieve something kinda similar without music school - but it's very hard and depends on a lot of luck in finding reasonably like-minded players.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by srlank
    It’s true that a community college can include beginners as well as more advanced musicians. I don’t find this particularly hampering, as we have a number of combos and classes for various levels at the college that I attend. Our department had 9 combos this past semester. 3 of them were really, really good and able to get some nice experience gigging in the community. All 9 of them got to do at least one gig.
    Sounds like a great program, where is this?

  11. #60

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    Yes, many of the masters of the past did not go to school. But they learned from more experienced players. Got private instructions when they were kids. They learned from each others before, during and after performances. They lived music. Youtube can't give you that. It's arguable if a music school can.
    I can understand the comparison between going to school vs getting private instruction from a good teacher. Theory, harmony, ear training, performance etc. They can all be learned better one on one then in a class room. You can join workshops in your city for ensemble experience or get a band together. But you won't have the same networking potential.
    Youtube is useful only if you're already a mature musician who can pick out the signal from the noise and know how to best benefit from the scattered material out there.

  12. #61

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    On my lunch break at a large electronics company, where I get to design aviation glass-cockpit devices. Great job, and I'm blessed to have it.

    Tonight I'll go home and play and write music until I pass out from exhaustion. If I decide to learn something new--I'll log on to TrueFire--Larry Carlton, Frank Vignola, Sheryl Bailey, and the others ALWAYS have something to teach me.

    It's my life, and I love it. No formal music training past 6 months of lessons back in 1973 when my dad bought me my first guitar.

    But if I could be 19 again, I would work my chops up enough to pass the UMKC Jazz Program audition, and I would be in that program. If I failed the audition, I'd go back again until I passed it.

    But that's me.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Sounds like a great program, where is this?
    Long Beach City College

  14. #63

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    It will be interesting quastion:
    What did learn John Coltrane in Music College?
    classical music?

  15. #64

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    I don't know how things are in Poland, but jazz is American music first and foremost. The latest Downbeat magazine has a large section devoted to school jazz awards. I find it to be very inspiring. Lots of programs, lots of young hard working players, lots of enthusiasm and passion for jazz.

    It is understandable how things would be a lot different in Poland and how the internet may the primary access tool for learning jazz.

    Perhaps you could come over here, visit a few big programs, and get a different perspective.

  16. #65

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    The old finishing school of jazz was through apprenticeships with the established bandleaders.
    These bands performed locally and on the road with great frequency.
    The economy has shifted as has the circumstance for gigging opportunities.
    An extended run at a club is almost non-existant. Working in multiple situations is now a necessity
    for survival and no longer a choice for most.

    The jazz school model was built as a counterpart image of the classical music programs.
    Some of the African American cultural aspect of this music have been downplayed although
    the spirit and understanding of some individual teachers finds it's way into the classroom.
    There are undoubtably a greater number of technically proficient players emerging from these programs.
    The important jazz esthetic of "individual voice" hasn't translated as well as a result of the curriculum approach.

    The internet has made available amazing resources. In school for instance, we bought two books for score analysis
    with microscopic print and now ISMLP makes available a large selection of public domain music history for free.
    Jazz transcriptions are available in abundance. Streaming services, youtube, etc. put unheard of music libraries at easy
    access for free or cheap subscription fee. Furthermore are videos of masterclasses, workshops by master musicians
    and all manner of self appointed experts with varying levels of knowledge and teaching skills.
    There are many doctorate music thesis available online. Resources exist in abundance.

    Still there is a difference between what happens on a computer screen and live interactions.
    A difference between a youtube concert (although valuable) and being in the room.
    Between watching an interview and hanging out with a master musician.
    Playing with tracks and playing with humans. Etc.

    College offers human engagement with teachers and peers. Not being in school requires each
    individual create such interactions. Either way, the truly motivated will not be denied.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    I don't know how things are in Poland, but jazz is American music first and foremost. The latest Downbeat magazine has a large section devoted to school jazz awards. I find it to be very inspiring. Lots of programs, lots of young hard working players, lots of enthusiasm and passion for jazz.

    It is understandable how things would be a lot different in Poland and how the internet may the primary access tool for learning jazz.

    Perhaps you could come over here, visit a few big programs, and get a different perspective.
    There are about 200 jazz festivals in 2019/Poland/.
    I have some friends studied in Berklee and another jazz schools in US.
    My old friend Garrison Fewell been a profesor in Berklee...
    Actually I have big collection about 300 books and vid from USA/about jazz guitar,ear traing,theory etc/.
    I think I got too much eductional staff to study today...
    I like all of them jazz schools,youtube ,books, Cds,edu videos/my favorite John Scofield "On Improvisation"-I transcribed all this great Scof's video/.
    Jazzingly
    Kris

  18. #67

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    Hey, Folks!

    No comparison. Look at how many players learned through a music school/degree vs. learning through youtube. 100,000 vs. 3? Music school will get you there faster because it demands commitment, perseverance, dedication, and discipline. Music schools have well designed curriculums that have stood the test of time. Except for a very few examples, almost no step-by-step curriculums are on the internet for free - just a bunch of isolated pieces of data. Unless you know HOW to put that all together and in WHAT ORDER, you will not get very much beyond your bedroom with Youtube data. That's what good/great teachers are for. They know what works and what is a waste of time.

    Data/information without a curriculum is pretty worthless. It's like taking a dictionary and trying to learn how to speak a language. Pretty damn impossible! AND 99.9% of the people trying to learn from the internet DO NOT possess the enormous focused discipline needed to do it by oneself. Don't kid yourself - you ain't that guy or gal!

    There is some really good video learning products out there, but they are not for free and shouldn't be. There are some good guided things on Truefire. Artistworks has some good stuff. Brent Mason on JamPlay is good. I like Robert Conti's materials because it is all there: improvisation (at a variety of levels), harmony/chord melody, comping, relevant theory, tunes/repertoire, hours and hours of step-by-step instruction from a master teacher, and wonderful jazz lines. Except for reading exercises on the guitar, it is all there. A full curriculum.

    There are bits and pieces of information on Youtube that are very interesting. BUT, by and large there is NO comparison to what you can learn in a good music school with good teachers. That last point is really important - good teachers! They can save you a bunch of time that would otherwise be wasted. You get what you PAY for. NOTHING worthwhile comes for free. Put in your time, pay your dues, work with great people, and stick with it. That's the ONLY road to success. 'Nuff said

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    I was recently watching Whiplash again. If that was what music college is like, sign me up. Someone slapping your face when you screw up is a motivator.
    I thought Whiplash was a fun story, and I liked the soundtrack, but it is NOT, repeat NOT, what music college is really like.

    When you have the privilege of being taught 1:1 by a national-act player who NEVER screws up, NEVER has a bad day, can read ANYTHING, whose throwaway ideas are better than your BEST stuff... no abuse is necessary. And, as others have pointed out, your fellow students are a learning resource and motivational resource unto themselves. The real-time interactivity of any ensemble, lesson or jam is something that YouTube can't yet offer. Plus, yeah, music school was the most fun I've ever had working the hardest I ever have.
    Last edited by starjasmine; 05-09-2019 at 02:07 PM.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    It will be interesting quastion:
    What did learn John Coltrane in Music College?
    classical music?
    He went to Granoff School of Music in Philly, as did McCoy tyner, Sonny Fortune, Dizzy Gillespie.

    At Granoff, Trane studied theory with autodidact guitarist/theorist Dennis Sandole, who became Trane's mentor and introduced to him all the advanced harmonic concepts that became the foundation of Trane's approach to harmony.

    While he didn't study at Granoff for long, the relationship with Sandole lasted until Coltrane died.

  21. #70

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  22. #71

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  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    where from we can learn more efective?
    youtube is a great place with a big potencial...I think.
    Best
    Kris
    Yeah youtube has promise but has some big problems associated with it.

    First of all youtube incentivises the content creator to produce certain types of content in order to be successful.

    So, if I do a video on Kurt Rosenwinkel lines with some click bait title it will do better than a video addressing basic aspects of people's playing. Teach licks of famous players and review gear and you'll do better than if you talk about rhythm and time/feel.

    There's nothing wrong with it per se for hobbyists but it's not what you need to become an advanced, employable player. I notice Jens intersperses videos with a more fundamental subject matter in between his more lick oriented YT material, for instance, trying to get a good mix. I'd be interested to know how the viewing figures compare form vid to vid.

    Adam Neely, David Bruce and other YT'ers have made an attempt to add more interactivity and feedback to students.

    I've basically ignored this, but my channel is growing very slowly lol.

    Secondly, no quality control. There's a lot of people out there who don't know what they are talking about. Less so I think if jazz, but channels like Rick Beato vary wildly in terms of quality. Jazzers I think are more likely to do their research and come across relatively obscure gems like Rotem Sivan's channel or What I Learned From Barry Harris.

    Thirdly, people will generally only search for things they want to find out about. The purpose of a teacher is sometimes to tell a student about something the haven't considered, or something they don't want to hear. In that sense it absolutely cannot replace tuition.

    IRL I often bump into people who watch my videos (!) including my bandmates lol. Jazz guitar is a small world after all.

    As a teacher I find players need things from me they have failed to learn from watching YouTube videos. Often this is just me nagging them about certain aspects of their playing lol.

    Fourthly, YT seems to emphasising frequency of upload in its algorithm. This has a couple of problems associated with it, less quality control, but also a tendency for YT'ers to go into it 'professionally' which means you get a class

    Fifthly, what you put on YT is viewable by anyone in the world. In this sense there is a strong incentive to make everything perfect, polished, and professional.

    What I end up including in my videos by necessity as much as choice - and something I've noticed about one of the big guitar YT'ers Music is Win - is a documentation of the process. I think it's good that people see me **** up. I know Bruce Foreman says that people vlogging their practice is like airing dirty laundry, but I think an hour of me watching Bruce practicing would actually be incredibly helpful. Probably as much so as any Music Masterclass vid.

    But Bruce is an old school guy - has a strong demarcation between public and private

  24. #73

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    I'd like to point out some content on youtube that's been actually a little off the usual tuition video format. The most imaginative is probably Adam Neely and those influenced by him such as David Bruce.


    • The Gig Vlog - Neely does these every so often, and I think it's a really good idea because it shows budding musicians what the day to day of professional music looks like.
    • Critique - again Neely does this, but not the only one. Viewers submit examples of their playing for feedback.
    • Demonstration of music games etc
    • Demonstration of transcription - I've done this. It's hard to do because it's actually very boring to watch, and would turn a lot of viewers off. Music is Win uses a fast forward approach, which might be a good compromise... You can see the work, but you don't have to sit through it in real time. Also I transcribe reasonably quickly (although still slow enough to be boring), so I don't want that to intimidating for beginners.


    Anyway I find the nascent YT music ecosystem very interesting, and may look into it as part of my PG dip/MA. There's been a couple of papers written about it, and a book with some essays on this type of learning but not a huge amount. If you are really interested Kris, could provide citations.

  25. #74

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    Ofcourse.
    I talked about my exoierience.
    I sad before you have to know how to use youtube...f.ex.I learn a lot from another instruments also/sax,piano...etc/...great staff from
    Master Class with Dave Frank or
    Scott McGill .

  26. #75

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    I will answer the question for you honestly. Jazz is a folk music. You learn on the street, on the gig, in the practice room, with a teacher (and in modern times) on youtube.

    HOWEVER, music school is an absolute NECESSITY in modern times for networking and making a living. I would go as far as to say you need a minimum of a master's degree these days. The reason is that even in NYC, there are not enough gigs to make a living at 99% of jazz musicians are teaching to make ends meet. Most jazz colleges in the USA won't even read your resume unless you have a masters degree in music.

    A few years ago, I looked into getting a teaching gig at a COMMUNITY COLLEGE and was told that they aren't even reviewing resumes unless you have a PhD in music or had a pedigree that included having played with people on the level of Miles, Wynton, etc.