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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz
    That was me. I thought I was good at guitar when I was younger. I was going to study history at university. But here in the UK, you can only apply to 5 schools, I had gotten accepted into all 5 to study history, but I did a workshop to do with jazz. That completely changed my mind. I set my mind on doing jazz. I was nowhere good enough to apply to the conservatories/music schools. I only knew four on six and road song. Didn't even know a jazz blues but I knew enough theory. I auditioned at a normal university that had a jazz course. The teacher asked me to play a yes, and I played a straight I IV V blues. He looked at me confused and surprised and said can you play me a jazz blues I said I don't know what that is. Somehow I managed to get in. Boy for the 3 years of the course, I put in between 10-12 hours every goddamn day, sometimes 8-10 hours. I went to Ronnie Scott's 2-3 times a week for the jam sessions and got my ass handed to me many times. All of that helped me get to the level I am at now. But still I'm trying to get my shit together. I graduated in summer 2017.

    Do you need to go to university to study jazz? If you have no idea what you have to do to play jazz then maybe yes, if you want to meet like minded people and make a network of players, yes.

    But if you know what you have to do to play jazz and you're meeting people by going out to jams then maybe no. It depends on what you want to get out of it. I know I got what I wanted out of it.

    Good for you! That's some exceptional determination and commitment!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Good job posting this. Pretty good triplet feel, but the click 's way off. Just record it with the click on every beat. The 2 and 4 thing has no context at this tempo , other than to frustrate.

    How are you picking this? Are you alternate picking or economy etc.?
    Down-up-down, like recommended in the Modern Method videos.


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  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    Down-up-down, like recommended in the Modern Method videos.


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    Better?

  5. #54

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    Playing sounds clean. Just watch your time, you're speeding up a little. Happens to all of us.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    Playing sounds clean. Just watch your time, you're speeding up a little. Happens to all of us.
    Thanks for the heads up. I have a high pulse doing this exercise. It’s hard, so I guess I speed up cause I’m stressing.


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  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    Thanks for the heads up. I have a high pulse doing this exercise. It’s hard, so I guess I speed up cause I’m stressing.


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    Understood. First try nailing the first note on the beat, next try for evenness of the triplet.

  8. #57

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    I am still having a hard time to play anything that sounds like jazz, even though I have the notes available.


    I have watched tons of youtube videos, and many of the people that show how to do this arpeggio stuff, also sound very white bread and not hip. This is pretty similar to my problem

    here for example:



    No critique to Jens of course!

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    I am still having a hard time to play anything that sounds like jazz, even though I have the notes available.


    I have watched tons of youtube videos, and many of the people that show how to do this arpeggio stuff, also sound very white bread and not hip. This is pretty similar to my problem

    here for example:



    No critique to Jens of course!
    And here’s and example of how I would want it to sound.


    Starts 5:45



    The differences I can spot, or rather hear is space, rhythm and motifs? I think...

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  10. #59
    I could never make playing those Arps up and down with connecting game from that book sound jazzy enough in the beginning. The biggest breakthroughs for me personally were learning to change direction on the "change" and resolving early/late. A little extra phrasing grease comes with ending lines "on the change" or just after..."be-BOP!". Those three things really helped break through the monotony when I was working that book .

    If you change direction on the resolution note of a new chord, you create an ENCLOSURE, which is very much in the jazz idiom. Also, experiment with resolving on the "& of 4" or the "& of 1" instead of directly on 1. For whatever reason, this appears to break a lot of "rules" for beginners playing through arps, but it's all in the language. I think the video you linked does a lot of all three of these devices.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    I could never make playing those Arps up and down with connecting game from that book sound jazzy enough in the beginning. The biggest breakthroughs for me personally were learning to change direction on the "change" and resolving early/late.

    If you change direction on the resolution note of a new chord , you create an ENCLOSURE, which is very much in the jazz idiom. also, experiment with resolve on the "& of 4" or the "& of 1" instead of directly on 1. For whatever reason, this appears to break a lot of rules for beginners playing through rps,
    So with connecting game each time the chord changed, you change the direction? I mean when I play I rarely play arpeggios straight ascending or descending, so don’t know how that would work on a solo? Could you elaborate on the enclosure part? Thanks

  12. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    So with connecting game each time the chord changed, you change the direction? I mean when I play I rarely play arpeggios straight ascending or descending, so don’t know how that would work on a solo? Could you elaborate on the enclosure part? Thanks
    Connecting game all ascending:
    A C E G, A C D F#
    direction change:
    A C E G, F# A C D, both ascending
    Or..
    A C E G, F# D C A, ascending-descending

    end the line ON the change:
    A C E G, F#

    Or just after:
    A C E G, F# D... "be-BOP!"

    E G, F# in all of those lines "encloses" and surrounds the last note, F sharp. This is a very strong targeting pattern used in jazz and can be done pretty easily using arpeggios by simply changing directions. Especially strong with 3rds resolving to 7ths and vice versa.

  13. #62

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    No offense but a much faster path would be to use the Joe Pass books plus the Bert Ligon books that I referenced earlier. The so-called connecting game leaves out too much. The other materials get straight to the point.

    So - practice scales and arpeggios? - Of course but neither is the jazz language unto itself.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Connecting game all ascending:
    A C E G, A C D F#
    direction change:
    A C E G, F# A C D, both ascending
    Or..
    A C E G, F# D C A, ascending-descending

    end the line ON the change:
    A C E G, F#

    Or just after:
    A C E G, F# D... "be-BOP!"

    E G, F# in all of those lines "encloses" and surrounds the last note, F sharp. This is a very strong targeting pattern used in jazz and can be done pretty easily using arpeggios by simply changing directions. Especially strong with 3rds resolving to 7ths and vice versa.
    So diatonic enclosure then.


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  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    And here’s and example of how I would want it to sound.


    Starts 5:45
    The differences I can spot, or rather hear is space, rhythm and motifs? I think...
    He tells you all this in the video doesn’t he? First he says listen to jazz a lot, you need to capture the ‘language’. I think he also said good time and rhythm will transform any phrase even if it’s just a simple arp. Then for specifics he says add 9ths and 13ths to your arps (I would include 11ths as well, Wes used these in arp-type runs), add enclosures (both diatonic and chromatic), and chromatic passing notes. He shows how he starts one phrase by sliding into the first note from a semitone below, even little details like this can make a phrase sound more musical.

    His last point is to play arps based on substitute chords from more advanced blues progressions - personally I would leave that for now, maybe a bit advanced. But he does show one good example, i.e. on bar 8 of a Bb blues, play an arp for the G7 chord. He uses a sort of diminished run which is a good way of doing this. E.g. for G7 you can use a diminished arpeggio such as Bdim. (= G7b9).

  16. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    So diatonic enclosure then.


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    Yeah, but it teaches you a concept for making "chromatic" enclosures of anything as well. Secondary Dom V7 of any chord has some chromatic implications, but if you make it altered, they're chromatic, by default.

    Over static Am: Ealt-Am creates chromatic targeting possibilities for every chord tone of Am. It's what Christian is talking about re Reg's playing above. He mostly uses arps to create chromatic targeting lines or blue note lines.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    He tells you all this in the video doesn’t he? First he says listen to jazz a lot, you need to capture the ‘language’. I think he also said good time and rhythm will transform any phrase even if it’s just a simple arp. Then for specifics he says add 9ths and 13ths to your arps (I would include 11ths as well, Wes used these in arp-type runs), add enclosures (both diatonic and chromatic), and chromatic passing notes. He shows how he starts one phrase by sliding into the first note from a semitone below, even little details like this can make a phrase sound more musical.

    His last point is to play arps based on substitute chords from more advanced blues progressions - personally I would leave that for now, maybe a bit advanced. But he does show one good example, i.e. on bar 8 of a Bb blues, play an arp for the G7 chord. He uses a sort of diminished run which is a good way of doing this. E.g. for G7 you can use a diminished arpeggio such as Bdim. (= G7b9).
    Yes he does. Is good time and rhythm a result of a lot of listening and transcribing? Together with playing with the metronome on 2&4.


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  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    Yes he does. Is good time and rhythm a result of a lot of listening and transcribing? Together with playing with the metronome on 2&4.


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    I think good time and rhythmic awareness are quite hard to develop, there’s no simple answer. I think you’re on the right lines, listening a lot is good, so you can hear how players swing and accent their lines, how they break them up with rests, how they start phrases on the second beat or on the ‘and’ of a beat for example.

    Playing with the metronome on 2 and 4 can help too.

    In my experience, it took me a long time and I’m still trying to improve it! What I found was that ultimately you have to somehow internalise it all, get to the point where you sort of feel the time ‘in your guts’, you can imagine lines in your head away from the instrument, and feel a sort of locked-in groove within those lines. But it did take me some years to get to that point I think. Recording yourself and listening back is good, the first time I did that I got a shock, only then did I realise how sloppy my time was!

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I think good time and rhythmic awareness are quite hard to develop, there’s no simple answer. I think you’re on the right lines, listening a lot is good, so you can hear how players swing and accent their lines, how they break them up with rests, how they start phrases on the second beat or on the ‘and’ of a beat for example.

    Playing with the metronome on 2 and 4 can help too.

    In my experience, it took me a long time and I’m still trying to improve it! What I found was that ultimately you have to somehow internalise it all, get to the point where you sort of feel the time ‘in your guts’, you can imagine lines in your head away from the instrument, and feel a sort of locked-in groove within those lines. But it did take me some years to get to that point I think. Recording yourself and listening back is good, the first time I did that I got a shock, only then did I realise how sloppy my time was!
    Well said. Emily says in her video course that she was told she had bad time. Then she went home, cried, then played with metronome on 2&4 for a long time. She had great time.


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  20. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    Yes he does. Is good time and rhythm a result of a lot of listening and transcribing? Together with playing with the metronome on 2&4.


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    Playing with a metronome doesn't do anything if you don't really use it to keep you accountable in a pretty disciplined way. You have competing schools of thought on this, one who insists that a metronome does NOTHING to help in having good time and another who swears by it.

    I think they're BOTH right, that they're really talking about fundamentally different things. You have to learn to count in a basic way and play in time with the beat at a basic level. A metronome can help a lot with knowing if you're doing that or not. I hear too many people playing with them though, and they simply have the thing running while they continue to play out of time with it.

    That's completely counterproductive and a waste of time for people who think they're really doing something to help their playing. I think the main problem is that a lot of guitarists are completely self taught. Any guitarist who has never done a school band program as a kid and feels that they may have time issues should get some basic help from a competent TEACHER. For most of us, this price HAS to be paid at some point. If you didn't do it in school as a kid, you aren't deficient in some way for not having good time, you just never put in the hours with a teacher that the rest of us did. You can do it at any age.

    Completely undisciplined and unmotivated school kids do this stuff in sixth gradewith that outside help. They work on it in a disciplined way every day.To people who studied jazz at university, how did you get in?

    Make sure you're not just playing approximately and loosely with a metronome.

    It goes without saying that all of the above has absolutely NOTHING to do with specific jazz feel and time. I just don't hear THAT as being a problem in a lot of playing examples from several players I've heard lately. Jazz time is hard enough if you have basic straight ahead time down already.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Playing with a metronome doesn't do anything if you don't really use it to keep you accountable in a pretty disciplined way. You have competing schools of thought on this, one who insists that a metronome does NOTHING to help in having good time and another who swears by it.

    I think they're BOTH right, that they're really talking about fundamentally different things. You have to learn to count in a basic way and play in time with the beat at a basic level. A metronome can help a lot with knowing if you're doing that or not. I hear too many people playing with them though, and they simply have the thing running while they continue to play out of time with it.

    That's completely counterproductive and a waste of time for people who think they're really doing something to help their playing. I think the main problem is that a lot of guitarists are completely self taught. Any guitarist who has never done a school band program as a kid and feels that they may have time issues should get some basic help from a competent TEACHER. For most of us, this price HAS to be paid at some point. If you didn't do it in school as a kid, you aren't deficient in some way for not having good time, you just never put in the hours with a teacher that the rest of us did. You can do it at any age.

    Completely undisciplined and unmotivated school kids do this stuff in sixth gradewith that outside help. They work on it in a disciplined way every day.To people who studied jazz at university, how did you get in?

    Make sure you're not just playing approximately and loosely with a metronome.

    It goes without saying that all of the above has absolutely NOTHING to do with specific jazz feel and time. I just don't hear THAT as being a problem in a lot of playing examples from several players I've heard lately. Jazz time is hard enough if you have basic straight ahead time down already.
    My teacher is vey honest about this. When we play together, he says that my time is wrong. My feet taps all over the place. I think the problem is that I get so stressed playing in front of him, that I have a hard time doing anything. So what I do now, is what Emily recommends. I try to move my body, swing, and really get the time into my belly.



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  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    Which book would you start with?


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    I would work them in parallel - the Joe Pass book a little more on the "Imitate" side of things, and the Ligon "Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony" on the "Assimilate" side of things.

    Why?

    1. Because the Pass book is chock full of etudes with busy lines right from the get go, designed by a master, for the guitar. Getting those lines into your hands and ears is an invaluable investment, even if you don't fully understand what you're playing and even if you don't stick with the traditional bebop oriented style in the long run. Plus Joe's book covers Jazz Blues, Minor Blues, and Modern Blues in addition to Rhythm Changes. Learn them all, in multiple keys. (Ligon doesn't cover the Blues as much, which is kind of a gap)

    Later I would study Pass' solos too, as well as Wes' - for sure! For straight ahead stuff on the guitar it doesn't get any more iconic than those two. They are the standard bearers of excellence. But those solos aren't etudes so are tougher (more expressive, more dynamic, faster, etc.) You shouldn't wait too long to get into them, but you may want to hold off a little bit.


    2. The Ligon book of chord outlines from the masters starts with skeletal outlines that are easy to understand and play - and keeps building on them. They are less etude or tune oriented so can be a bit dry - BUT - as you go through them you are instructed to build your own outlines, vary the outlines, and improvise with them. Make certain that you do ALL of that. In other words, memorize and imitate but don't JUST memorize and imitate. As you go along, make certain that you know what you are playing, how it's constructed, and why it works. The chord outlines are not just scales, arpeggios, or chromatics - they're all of that, extracted from a long legacy of performances from many artists. They're building blocks of real melody making.

    At some point the Imitation of the masters more difficult material (Pass, Wes, others), and the Assimilation and Innovation from the progressively more sophisticated material should begin to cross over for you. At that point you should be able to play, hear, understand, and create jazz improvisations competently. How competently and tastefully is up to the individuals talent and taste.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    I would work them in parallel - the Joe Pass book a little more on the "Imitate" side of things, and the Ligon "Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony" on the "Assimilate" side of things.

    Why?

    1. Because the Pass book is chock full of etudes with busy lines right from the get go, designed by a master, for the guitar. Getting those lines into your hands and ears is an invaluable investment, even if you don't fully understand what you're playing and even if you don't stick with the traditional bebop oriented style in the long run. Plus Joe's book covers Jazz Blues, Minor Blues, and Modern Blues in addition to Rhythm Changes. Learn them all, in multiple keys. (Ligon doesn't cover the Blues as much, which is kind of a gap)

    Later I would study Pass' solos too, as well as Wes' - for sure! For straight ahead stuff on the guitar it doesn't get any more iconic than those two. They are the standard bearers of excellence. But those solos aren't etudes so are tougher (more expressive, more dynamic, faster, etc.) You shouldn't wait too long to get into them, but you may want to hold off a little bit.


    2. The Ligon book of chord outlines from the masters starts with skeletal outlines that are easy to understand and play - and keeps building on them. They are less etude or tune oriented so can be a bit dry - BUT - as you go through them you are instructed to build your own outlines, vary the outlines, and improvise with them. Make certain that you do ALL of that. In other words, memorize and imitate but don't JUST memorize and imitate. As you go along, make certain that you know what you are playing, how it's constructed, and why it works. The chord outlines are not just scales, arpeggios, or chromatics - they're all of that, extracted from a long legacy of performances from many artists. They're building blocks of real melody making.

    At some point the Imitation of the masters more difficult material (Pass, Wes, others), and the Assimilation and Innovation from the progressively more sophisticated material should begin to cross over for you. At that point you should be able to play, hear, understand, and create jazz improvisations competently. How competently and tastefully is up to the individuals talent and taste.
    Thanks! Which pass book is that? I can’t see it in the list. Am I blind?
    This?




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    Last edited by znerken; 02-10-2019 at 06:54 PM.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    that's the one.
    The linear harmony book looks great. Anyone up for a study group?


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  25. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    The linear harmony book looks great. Anyone up for a study group?


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    I have all 4 Bert Ligon's books, and they are outstanding. I would consider myself to probably be the most shameless Ligon fanboy on the forum and would put all of his material at the top of any list of book recommendations for those interested in learning to play jazz.

    All of that being said, I don't think that you need another book to be distracted with right now. This book isn't a shortcut if you're having issues with playing chord tones. If we're going to bring Bert Ligon in, we have to at least consider his actual scope and sequence. Connecting Chords... is a book that grew out of a would-be later chapter in his theory book. The material that comes before that is basic harmony, rhythm and melody - like targeting chord tones using diatonic and chromatic approaches.

    Be careful of internet advice.

    Go to as many jams as you can. At every jam, find someone on your level to play with casually on a separate day. Do the same with players at lower and higher levels than yours. Talk to people constantly about local teachers and players and schedule one-off lessons and jams with different people. If you want to get better much faster, take about a dozen different teachers for a test-drive lesson and then study more regularly with the best 2 or 3.

    Internet is only for when you can't do that, you don't have anyone to play with, and you've practiced too much already or something.

    Priorities should be something like:

    Playing with others better than you.
    Studying with others better than you.
    Playing with others at or below your level.
    Playing with others in non-jazz styles
    Listening to live jazz.
    Listening to records.
    Teaching others below your level.
    Practicing at home.
    Reading stuff on the forum.

    That's a crap list probably. Others would add or take away, but the most important thing to accelerating progress is extending your network of people to play with. Don't sacrifice things of lower priority, and don't wait to get good enough first. If you ever got to the point that you basically didn't have enough time to practice because you're playing with others too much, that's the problem you want to have.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    I have all 4 Bert Ligon's books, and they are outstanding. I would consider myself to probably be the most shameless Ligon fanboy on the forum and would put all of his material at the top of any list of book recommendations for those interested in learning to play jazz.

    All of that being said, I don't think that you need another book to be distracted with right now. This book isn't a shortcut if you're having issues with playing chord tones. If we're going to bring Bert Ligon in, we have to at least consider his actual scope and sequence. Connecting Chords... is a book that grew out of a would-be later chapter in his theory book. The material that comes before that is basic harmony, rhythm and melody - like targeting chord tones using diatonic and chromatic approaches.

    Be careful of internet advice.

    Go to as many jams as you can. At every jam, find someone on your level to play with casually on a separate day. Do the same with players at lower and higher levels than yours. Talk to people constantly about local teachers and players and schedule one-off lessons and jams with different people. If you want to get better much faster, take about a dozen different teachers for a test-drive lesson and then study more regularly with the best 2 or 3.

    Internet is only for when you can't do that, you don't have anyone to play with, and you've practiced too much already or something.

    Priorities should be something like:

    Playing with others better than you.
    Studying with others better than you.
    Playing with others at or below your level.
    Playing with others in non-jazz styles
    Listening to live jazz.
    Listening to records.
    Teaching others below your level.
    Practicing at home.
    Reading stuff on the forum.

    That's a crap list probably. Others would add or take away, but the most important thing to accelerating progress is extending your network of people to play with. Don't sacrifice things of lower priority, and don't wait to get good enough first. If you ever got to the point that you basically didn't have enough time to practice because you're playing with others too much, that's the problem you want to have.

    My only problem with this, is that I am almost unable to play anything with others. Especially without screwing up. At least I got the blues now, which always is easier. My last standard was Ornithology, not that easy..


    What is a little funny, is that yesterday, I had aha moment, that didn't come from anything but listening and trying to hit 3rds on the first beat. Always moving towards the 3rd of the next chord, surrounding it with diatonic tones, or chromatic. I sound a little like blues now. Just a little, but that is great.

    This week I am going to a master class with Lage Lund. The week before that I attended one with Jesse Van Ruller. One month before that, Peter Bernstein.

  27. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    My only problem with this, is that I am almost unable to play anything with others. Especially without screwing up. At least I got the blues now, which always is easier. My last standard was Ornithology, not that easy..


    What is a little funny, is that yesterday, I had aha moment, that didn't come from anything but listening and trying to hit 3rds on the first beat. Always moving towards the 3rd of the next chord, surrounding it with diatonic tones, or chromatic. I sound a little like blues now. Just a little, but that is great.

    This week I am going to a master class with Lage Lund. The week before that I attended one with Jesse Van Ruller. One month before that, Peter Bernstein.
    If you can play a blues, you can get together with someone else at your level that you meet at a jam. Go to jams and open mics in other styles even. Meet other musicians locally.

    You play a comping instrument. Find a horn player to play with. Find as many different people as you can. The thing that's not obvious to anytime at early stages is that you just don't even know what you need to practice until you start doing this. Once you play some with others, it's obvious, and you're practice time will just be so much more efficient.

    I do this type of thing mostly in other styles, but the same is true regardless of style. It really is the shortcut.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 02-11-2019 at 02:06 PM.

  28. #77

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    Is this going somewhere at all? Only chord tones, besides the altered A7

  29. #78
    Sounds really good to me on a lot of levels . Good rhythmic feel and some nice note choices etc. I don't see any problem at all with how you're progressing with this more than the 2-and-4 click just still being really ill-advised at this early stage in the game.

    Is it your teacher who's being insistent on working this backbeat click so much right now? Guitar player? I might look for someone who is a pianist or horn player etc. who's played a lot of jazz specifically. It sounds like hip-hop type of groove. Maybe that's what you're going for?

    If you're going for a more straightahead blues feel I would try and click on ALL4 and maybe shop teachers . You can have more than one by the way.

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Sounds really good to me on a lot of levels . Good rhythmic feel and some nice note choices etc. I don't see any problem at all with how you're progressing with this more than the 2-and-4 click just still being really ill-advised at this early stage in the game.

    Is it your teacher who's being insistent on working this backbeat click so much right now? Guitar player? I might look for someone who is a pianist or horn player etc. who's played a lot of jazz specifically. It sounds like hip-hop type of groove. Maybe that's what you're going for?

    If you're going for a more straightahead blues feel I would try and click on ALL4 and maybe shop teachers . You can have more than one by the way.
    Thank you, that was kind! The 2&4 persistency is from watching Emily Remler’s dvd. She said that’s how she fixed her time. My teacher recommended me once, but he don’t care about that stuff too much. He’s very focused on me having good time and playing good melody. He’s Jim Hall’s student.


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  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    Thank you, that was kind! The 2&4 persistency is from watching Emily Remler’s dvd. She said that’s how she fixed her time. My teacher recommended me once, but he don’t care about that stuff too much. He’s very focused on me having good time and playing good melody. He’s Jim Hall’s student.


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    The only problem now, is that I can’t advance from where I am. I play the same stuff, slight differenced every time. Is it because I’m in the same position, is it because right now, not it as far as my vocabulary stretch?


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  32. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    The 2&4 persistency is from watching Emily Remler’s dvd. She said that’s how she fixed her time.
    She's not wrong, but there's a context. I have to get basic covered first. You have to cover basic first. Once you you're solid with a straight 4 , that backbeat click may help with FEEL and more specific jazz time. just sounds like it's slightly throwing you off right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    My teacher recommended me once, but he don’t care about that stuff too much. He’s very focused on me having good time and playing good melody. He’s Jim Hall’s student.
    Sounds like you have a good teacher . Congrats. Be patient. The internalization part takes longer than just getting some things in your fingers , and it's not linear progress . You may see 100% improvement after a month on something specific, but it's not usually 25% per week . Very often progress manifests more as sudden breakthroughs , as a result of weeks prior work. Seems to come out of nowhere. Be patient with that aspect.

  33. #82

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    I'm wondering this. Can you play a melody against a backing track and make it swing?

    Say, for example, using IRealPro to provide a backing track for a tune, say, All of Me.

    Then simply try to play the melody and make it swing?

    If you can do that, then you could try to embellish the melody and have that be your solo, adding embellishments until, after some work, having it be mostly your solo and not so much the original melody.

    But, if you can't do that, you have to figure out why not. Can you sing it with a decent swing feel? It is an issue of getting your fingers on the notes fast enough? Something else? Diagnosis before treatment planning.

  34. #83

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    Thanks for sharing, guys! Does anyone know where I can find a list of Universities that allow to study jazz? I checked CollegeApps. This is a good and informative source for those who are going to enter a college or University. But I didn't find any information about musical education there. Any suggestions?

  35. #84

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    Idid not read all the responses but here is what I did.

    Our local community college has a two program that is a prep for going on to a 4 year.

    They also have a 1 year certificate program that is mostly a prep for the audition to get into the 2 year.

    At age 64 I had been playing for 52 years.

    I went to a open house at the college, quickly came to the realization I could not have passed the audition.

    I called and made an appointment with the Dean of the music department. Together we went over what I needed to make me a better musician.

    To make a long story longer I enrolled and earned the certificate. I learned a lot.

    The hardest fight was convincing them to give me credit for the Gen Ed courses (English and History) from my degree from 1972. I did get them in the end but I had to stand my ground. I guess they didn't want to have on their books a drop-out with a 3.9 GPA

    Instruction was top notch, music department was great, administration was one roadblock after another.

  36. #85

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    I just wanted to note with a little pride that our boy don_oz above is now in NYC studying with Pasquale Grasso with a scholarship.

    (He already knows it all in terms of info. Now it’s time for the unique environment of NYC and its bandstands to do their work.)

    I anticipate, look forward to and professionally fear his return to Blighty should it occur.

    application, and love for the music. Obviously we can’t put in 12-14 hour days forever, but that’s the spirit....

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    but I think one of the big problems is my lack of time and feel? .
    ive heard you mention your work with arpeggios, scales, guide tones etc, but what are you doing to work on your time and feel?

  38. #87

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    Not everyone has musical ability. It's the truth.

    Did you ever see a really bad golfer?

    They'll never be good. Like Charles Barkley.

    Just enjoy the game.


  39. #88

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    This is a fun thread, many thanks to all for keeping it alive. I hope the OP figured out what to do.

    Let me share my story for what it's worth. I went to music school in the mid-1980s in the NYC area. At the time I was playing in a wedding band doing covers of Spyro-Gyra, Stevie Wonder, 80s radio pop, and a few jazz standards. Also played blues jams with drinking buddies, sat in with rock bands, had a few students, and practiced often on my own. Was OK at reading, knew some theory. The drummer in the wedding band got me an audition for a college music program that was looking for a guitarist to play in the school's big band. I sat in on a couple of gigs, the band director liked what he heard, and I was offered a full scholarship to the school's music education BA program, which included weekly private lessons with a well-known jazz guitarist and monthly tutorials with an arranger in the city, and even bass lessons with a session player, rounded out by assisting a local trumpet player on upright bass for his evening classes teaching junior high kids.

    I recount this story to support what someone said in this thread in response to the OP's question that heads the thread, and which was also noted in the list above, that the key for me was to be playing with others as much as possible, with better players, with casual players, kids, pros, people on different instruments, in various genres, working with songwriters, and so forth.

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by TH
    Newbies spend their 4 years acquiring the knowledge that, frankly, can be acquired through a year of hard work, playing with others and getting private instruction from a REALLY good teacher outside of the academic environment.

    I must respectfully disagree STRONGLY. No matter who you study with, you are not going to have the equivalent of four years of practice or four years of ear training or both by working harder at it for a year. That's not to say you shouldn't try as hard as you can, or that you should simply not try. You should work your a-- off WITH realistic expectations. And, to be clear, the right teacher is absolutely critical.

    Your fellow music majors have been playing piano or violin since they were four years old. Recognize that and understand that you have a TON of catching up to do. Do go at it hard, but if you think you're going to go from ground zero to "accomplished" in a year, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

    In another post fep (Frank) suggested community college. That is absolutely a great way to go. A good coordinated program of formal training will help you to ensure there are no gaps in your overall skill set, and it will help you to tie various skills (harmony, ear training, performance) together in a coordinated and synergistic way.

    And being surrounded by skilled teachers and other students will energize you to take on the task of transitioning from casual to competent.

    HTH

    SJ

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kate888
    Thanks for sharing, guys! Does anyone know where I can find a list of Universities that allow to study jazz? I checked CollegeApps. This is a good and informative source for those who are going to enter a college or University. But I didn't find any information about musical education there. Any suggestions?
    Pick up a copy of Downbeat magazine; you might find it at your local library for free. Many universities advertise their jazz programs there.

    You might also try googling "university jazz studies degree" or similar search terms.