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  1. #51

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    I wonder if there’s a cut and dried distinction.

    We don’t talk about Bach having licks do we? But we do talk about his lines.

    OTOH we d not talk about SRV lines although he did play jazz lines sometimes

    I dunno

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52
    So, back to the arpeggios. Since I like your insight.

    What I have done today, is the "chord tone exercise" in all the 7 positions I usually practice arpeggios. That is each of them through one of my 3 notes per string positions. This is a good approach, I think. It helps you relate chords to each mode as well.

    So, I took a simple eight notes pattern, for example the two first chords:

    Going downwards:
    C Eb G D C Eb G D
    1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &
    --- next chord is F7, closest note?-- Eb, continuing in my direction
    Eb F A C Eb F A C.
    1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &
    --- next chord is Bb^7, closest note?-- etc..

    Sounds good?
    Last edited by znerken; 10-07-2018 at 09:01 AM.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    So, back to the arpeggios. Since I like your insight.

    What I have done today, is the "chord tone exercise" in all the 7 positions I usually practice arpeggios. That is each of them through one of my 3 notes per string positions. This is a good approach, I think. It helps you relate chords to each mode as well.

    So, I took a simple eight notes pattern, for example the two first chords:

    Going downwards:
    C Eb G D C Eb G D
    1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &
    --- next chord is F7, closest note?-- Eb, continuing in my direction
    Eb F A C Eb F A C.
    1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &
    --- next chord is Bb^7, closest note?-- etc..

    Sounds good?
    you're saying that the first arpeggio is descending? what's the chord?

  5. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    you're saying that the first arpeggio is descending? what's the chord?

    Two first bars of Autumn Leaves. C-7 F7. Don't put too much into my example though, the point was just that I did what you all explained, if I understood correctly. When the chord changed, aka a new bar appeared, I looked for the closest note, and continued in the same direction I was headed. So when I was descending C-7, and the F7 bar appeared, I looked at the closest note, and continued descending. Now the guitar only has 6 strings, so of course, I went back up again

  6. #55

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    OK, I thought it was a II-V, it's just that you spelled the first chord incorrectly. No biggie

  7. #56

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    My jazz teacher was a piano player, so my beginning lessons were all about playing songs and providing my own accompanyment. Not chord melody or solo guitar, mind you, just melody with chords and PLAY IN TIME.

  8. #57

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    I had taken lessons with a couple of teachers, but my first real jazz guitar lessons took place in college when I was getting my Bachelor of Science in Music Ed. I first studied with Sal Salvador. Sal had me playing out of a lot of books, some of his like his Single String Studies, his chord book, the Johnny Smith book, Melodic Rhythms, Kreutzer for Guitar, the George Van Eps book, a mallet book whose title I can't recall, the Arban Trumpet book. He really got your reading and fretboard knowledge down.

    Then we would play a tune in the Real Book. Sal would correct the chords that were wrong. I would have to play the melody, be able to comp, play a solo and then play the melody an octave higher. I'd comp behind him as he soloed and then we'd talk about different scales to use over the changes. Sal was a great guy and teacher, had a lot of great stories about playing and musicians.

    Sal left that college around my Junior year and Richie Hart replaced him (Richie is now teaching at Berklee). Richie taught me some different scale fingerings, arpeggios, 3 note chord voicings, playing through the changes pinpointing first the root, then 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc. of each chord in a tune. Transcribed some Charlie Christian solos, some Wes solos and chord solos, taught me a lot of tunes and opened my ears to a lot of players I'd never listened to before. Richie Hart is one of the best jazz players I ever heard and can read down anything put in front of him. Another guy I went to college with there said he brought a Steve Vai solo in to see if Richie could play it. He said while Richie didn't play it with Vai's nuances Richie read the whole thing down in one go.

    Since my studies were in Music Ed I wasn't able to solely focus on jazz guitar while I was there and while I don't regret getting a Music Ed degree I do wish I could've spent more time just studying jazz guitar performance.

  9. #58

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    I bet he didn't have as good hair as Steve Vai though.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I bet he didn't have as good hair as Steve Vai though.
    LOL No, he didn't have quite the same hair style as Vai, but he is one of the greatest jazz guitarists I've had the pleasure of hearing live and in person.

  11. #60

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    I went to a University "Jazz School". It definitely exposed me to a lot of players and styles of music I wouldn't have been exposed to otherwise (i was amazed at how many 17 year olds essentially play at a professional level). However, even with a 'schooled' education, I still needed to (and still am, holy cow) figure out most of everything I'm good at on my own. There is no magic formula or silver bullet but a progressive understanding and increased awareness of how/what to play and listen for, what you like, what is your sound etc.

    chord tones over scales is a good place to start ("Fuck Scales" - Peter Bernstein) maybe shell voicings or Drop2 voicings for the 4 most common chord types.

    As for sounding like a jazz player vs sounding "jazzy", you're gonna need to lift or at least play along with some jazz music. Try lifting the rhythms from a few choruses of Wynton Kelly's comping in Freddie Freeloader to get a sense of how people accompany each other in jazz. Also, try lifting a Chet Baker solo or something else you like that is pretty simple. I remember always trying to lift fast pat martino or joe pass stuff before I had the technique to physically play them which was valuable but maybe not the best use of my time.

    cheers

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by bediles
    chord tones over scales is a good place to start ("Fuck Scales" - Peter Bernstein) maybe shell voicings or Drop2 voicings for the 4 most common chord types.
    Ha did Pete say that? Jim Mullen said the exact same thing to me.

    Peter is often about playing right out of the chords and voice leading. More ways you can play chords and voicings = more lines.

  13. #62

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    Yep, he said it right to my face. At the time I had a very modes oriented teacher (I guess that worked for him and it definitely help me to some degree, at least my ears) and Peter's approach was confusing to me ... so he made his point clear, Ha.

  14. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by bediles
    Yep, he said it right to my face. At the time I had a very modes oriented teacher (I guess that worked for him and it definitely help me to some degree, at least my ears) and Peter's approach was confusing to me ... so he made his point clear, Ha.
    Is that like the two main approaches/schools of thought to guitar soloing in jazz? Either arpeggios or modes? I had a lesson with Sheryl Bailey, and I got the impression that she always connected a cord to a mode. So if she heard a 7 chord, she would solo with mixolydian.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by bediles
    Yep, he said it right to my face. At the time I had a very modes oriented teacher (I guess that worked for him and it definitely help me to some degree, at least my ears) and Peter's approach was confusing to me ... so he made his point clear, Ha.
    Yeah, he doesn't give a **** about that stuff does he? I mean, he clearly knows the modes when he needs them but so much of his stuff is chordal based, and really creative.

    He makes it look so easy though - it's inspiring to have him play chords at you for an hour in a lesson, but away from this I've had to sit down and GRAFT about the specifics of how he does it.... In the end I do have to imitate his style because I love it, before coming up with my own take on that logic.

    Anyway I digress.... As I say the wonderful Jim Mullen said the same thing to me at a jam. Refreshing advice.

    But you do get guys like Adam Rogers (who I also love) who are super modal and creative within that.

    I think it's OK not to learn everything, and go with your intuition on what works for you.

  16. #65

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    OTOH I'm also a student of Barry Harris, and he's all about making music with scales (although not necessarily the ones in the mode books.)

  17. #66

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    Is that like the two main approaches/schools of thought to guitar soloing in jazz? Either arpeggios or modes? I had a lesson with Sheryl Bailey, and I got the impression that she always connected a cord to a mode. So if she heard a 7 chord, she would solo with mixolydian.

    Good question. None of these concepts are mutually exclusive. Also, the more experience you get, none of these 'concepts' apply anymore or just become ingrained and you worry about other stuff. There are rules but there are also no rules... huh? ... when starting out I think it's good to have a few rules/guidelines and then eventually they won't matter anymore (you'll know when).

    The point I was alluding to in my post is that when some people think modes they end up thinking (for example) about II-V-I Dorian-Mixolydian-Ionian and by the time you remember what all these modes are the song is over. It's really just a cadence to home, how do you want that to sound? If you want to do the diatonic thing well thinking about 3 modes is maybe a little too much to think about (they're all made up of the same notes anyways). Also, classic jazz language isn't really modal it's based on a language.

    Furthermore, modes can be conceptualized in so many ways: as chord tones with passing tones (ex: play that Sheryl Bailey stuff, that's what she is doing, there's a reason to what notes are on the off beats and on beats. OR where all 7 (or 8) notes are given equal weighting which is a more true modal approach (and may sound like crap in the wrong hands) but has a more modern sound (usually).

    Some people use modes to organize the fretboard too even in the context of playing chord tones. For example thinking of D dorian across the neck but only playing D, F and A but you have an underlying road map there of all the other white/natural notes.

    well hopefully that wasn't too incoherent.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yeah, he doesn't give a **** about that stuff does he? I mean, he clearly knows the modes when he needs them but so much of his stuff is chordal based, and really creative.

    He makes it look so easy though - it's inspiring to have him play chords at you for an hour in a lesson, but away from this I've had to sit down and GRAFT about the specifics of how he does it.... In the end I do have to imitate his style because I love it, before coming up with my own take on that logic.
    Yeah I was surprised how much he plays off of voicings/grips. Similar to a piano player. Like he will literally grab a some chord inversion and play with only those 4 notes in a neat intervallic way. Also he gets so much milage out of that classic 4th voicing he just uses it for everything (I justify it by the strength of the melodies he plays with them).


    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    But you do get guys like Adam Rogers (who I also love) who are super modal and creative within that.
    Different strokes for different folks. A lot of more technically focussed horn players i know (modern sounding) do the modes thing. I go back and forth about hating these message boards when it devolves into CST vs chords vs intervals vs modes blah blah been there done that... it doesn't really matter at all (except for the beginner IMO because you can really slow your growth early on focussing on the 'wrong' things)

  19. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by bediles
    Yeah I was surprised how much he plays off of voicings/grips. Similar to a piano player. Like he will literally grab a some chord inversion and play with only those 4 notes in a neat intervallic way. Also he gets so much milage out of that classic 4th voicing he just uses it for everything (I justify it by the strength of the melodies he plays with them).




    Different strokes for different folks. A lot of more technically focussed horn players i know (modern sounding) do the modes thing. I go back and forth about hating these message boards when it devolves into CST vs chords vs intervals vs modes blah blah been there done that... it doesn't really matter at all (except for the beginner IMO because you can really slow your growth early on focussing on the 'wrong' things)
    What’s the wrong things?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    What’s the wrong things?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Oh boy, the following is just my opinion only.

    Early on I would focus on two things:

    1. The nuts and bolts stuff: learning the fretboard and learning some basic chord grips (shell voicings, also listen to Wynton Kelly's comping on Freddie Freeloader is a go to for getting a feel for comping in jazz).
    2. The improv/tunes stuff: learn melodies (in a single place on the guitar no need to go crazy learning all the permutations just yet), improvise with those melodies and around those melodies by ear (singing something as you play or without playing). I know people in dixieland/trad jazz bands that do this and sound amazing so this isn't necessarily a jazz-lite approach.
    BONUS (but most important) 3. Listen to all the jazz you like the sound of (you don't have to be too dogmatic about the lineage and if you get deep into the music, you will get into the lineage anyways organically)


    TLDR: Don't be too technical early on. Don't walk before you can run... FYI: after these steps I would move on to line lifting and construction but not for quite a while (OR not depending on progress, who knows).
    Last edited by bediles; 10-14-2018 at 03:54 PM.

  21. #70

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    Sensible advice IMO, I heartily agree.

    I haven't seen you around these parts much?

  22. #71

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    I studied for 10 years of combo classes with a teacher who mostly emphasized time feel.

    As far as soloing went, he'd say things like:

    1. "Stop! No licks! Make melody!"

    2. "It's a G7 sharp 11 scale". This type of instruction was very rare. He almost never talked about scales and never about modes. Never about arpeggios, either. It was all "make melody".

    3. "Don't play chromatics" (to somebody who he expected to bluff his way through a difficult passage).

    4. "If you play a bad note, there's a better one a half step away".

    5. He taught lots of tunes with plenty of odd time and novel harmony.

    So, if your idea of an approach to soloing is to assemble the building blocks of scales, modes, arps and large numbers of Scale/mode/arp/pentatonic over different chords or cadences ... well, this wasn't it.

    But, if your idea is to train your ear for harmony and time and focus on creating melody, his approach might work for you.

    Stated another way, if your goal is to be able to hear a hip line in your mind and get it to come out of the speaker sounding good, then the work is twofold: 1. improve your mind's ear and 2. improve your ability to play what you're thinking of. Some players use a lot of theory to deal with #1 and some don't. It may depend on whether the individual finds it harder to do the work of ear training vs the work of theory. Not that it's a black and white choice, of course. I've had theory based teachers who were very helpful too.

  23. #72

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    I was extremely lucky and unlucky with my very first teacher. I got taught by this guy:



    But only for 2 months as he moved to the east coast soon after we started lessons.

    He taught me blues riff after blues riff. Hammer ons and pull offs. After struggling with trying to teach myself the guitar for months it was the first time it made sense.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    No, i just play through them everywhere on the neck. How do one voice lead arpeggios?
    Traditional voice leading (aka guide tone lines, linear harmony)
    5's go to 9's and vice versa
    3's go to 7's and vice versa
    Bass moves in 5ths.

    ii V I in C:

    Dmin9 G9 CMaj9
    ---------------------------
    E -> D -> D (9 to 5 to 9)
    A -> A -> G (5 to 9 to 5)
    F -> F -> E (3 to 7 to 3)
    C -> B -> B (7 to 3 to 7)
    D -> G -> C (down 5 ths)

    You get 5 voices that move according to the rules of voice leading. Each arrow make basis for strong melody.
    For example (BS nonsense for 3 and half beats) E->D (BS nonsense for 3 beats ) F->E is a decent ii-V-I lick.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 10-19-2018 at 08:56 PM.