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  1. #1

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    Sorry for the explosive title. I really want to get others opinion on this as I haven't seen this point discussed anywhere and it's causing so much grief to people attempting to learn fretboard in my opinion (I certainly suffered from it).
    I am talking about learning from fretboard diagrams. Caged system or any other positional system. You can hardly pick up a guitar book that doesn't have one. There is a ridiculously easier and more musical way (I'll get to that shortly).
    I am not saying that positional playing is wrong (I know that's debated to death already). I think positional playing is useful. What I don't agree is using positional playing as a way to memorize the fretboard. Positional system should be something one arrives at after learning the fretboard, not a starting point.
    Let me just state the simple alternative. Let's take the major scale. There are 2 one octave forms that require minimal finger stretch. All Caged diagrams amount to stacking these forms and adjusting them for the tuning of the high E and B strings:

    |6| |7|1|
    |3|4| |5|
    | |1| |2|


    |7|1| | | |
    | |5| |6| |
    | |2| |3|4|
    | | | | |1|

    When you start on the root note (say on the sixth string) and ascend, you have a choice of 2 continuations (second note on the same string or second note on the next string) the rest is forced by the minimal stretch rule.

    Note, just learning these means knowing how to play this scale on the entire fretboard not in just one place.
    Fretboard diagrams make learning very difficult and less musical because they obfuscate:
    o Smaller patterns that repeat in all positions.
    o Intervallic relationships between notes.
    o Scale degrees of each note.

    As a result not only there is a steep learning curve to these diagrams but one almost has to start from scratch when one attempts to learn a new scale (or arpeggio).
    There is also long delay between starting to learn a new scale and applying it to songs. With these on octave approach within minutes one can play the scale on the entire fretboard and also be aware of what intervallic relationships exists between the notes. In fact I think all other instruments are learnt this way. Why is guitar taught with these insane diagrams?

    EDIT: I am not suggesting that one should immediately jump all over the fretboard with these types of one octave forms when learning a new scale. It's best to start applying these octaves in smaller chunks immediately to chord changes one is practicing and gradually expand. But the idea is the expansion would be trivial.

    EDIT 2: I put this below as a response to a clarification request. I might as well make it part of the post. The two shapes above can be superimposed to a CAGED diagram completely like Lego pieces (adjusting for the tuning as necessary). You can generate the CAGED system from them, but with very little memorization and without losing sight of the scale degrees and intervals, try it:
    http://www.guitarorb.com/images/CAGE...lPositions.png
    Last edited by Tal_175; 01-27-2018 at 08:31 AM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Hi,
    Trying to understand your post...seems your second diagram has an error with a half-step interval between 2 and 3..and a whole step between 3 and 4? Otherwise I can't seem to make any sense out of the diagrams..if you are representing a major scale..or am I just dense?
    Regards,

    Eddie

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by fusejaz
    Hi,
    Trying to understand your post...seems your second diagram has an error with a half-step interval between 2 and 3..and a whole step between 3 and 4? Otherwise I can't seem to make any sense out of the diagrams..if you are representing a major scale..or am I just dense?
    Regards,

    Eddie
    You're right, the second diagram has a typo, just fixed it. The first one is correct. Thanks for finding the error.

  5. #4

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    I was wondering if it was just me ....can't get your point and the diagrams just don't make sense to me either.

    Maybe you've been looking in the wrong places that caused you to come up with this rather confusing
    post.

    I'm interested if you could clarify what you're trying to say here.

    It's no secret that the guitar finger board doesn't give up its mysteries easily.

    ...Like the old Wes story on the topic of octaves that he used to get a head ache when he started playing octaves.

    ....Plus the even older one when asked about practicing ....something like...every now and then I open the case and
    throw in a lump of raw meat. [The man was human despite the impression of other worldliness]

  6. #5
    Sorry for the confusing post. I edited it a bit to make it clearer. The diagram represents a small section of the fretboard (I see the irony), bottom four strings (only to eliminate the tuning differences of the bottom two strings for clarity). Each "box" is a note on the fretboard. Just like standard fretboard diagrams or tabs.
    They are just one octave major scales. The point is take a typical CAGED fretboard diagram where one is prone to memorize as these weird shapes:
    http://www.guitarorb.com/images/CAGE...lPositions.png

    Now this entire diagram, every position can be decomposed in those two forms I put on the post. Just like lego pieces (of course you have to adjust for the tuning.
    Try it.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    You're right, the second diagram has a typo, just fixed it. The first one is correct. Thanks for finding the error.
    There are two 5ths on the first one.

  8. #7

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    OK. My opinion is that your points are well intended, but nevertheless faulty.

  9. #8

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    Those shapes really are the biggest strengths of guitar. People can learn fast that crazy scale they need and apply them in different keys without too much trouble. Of course, these are shortcuts and have drawbacks.

  10. #9

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    It's easy to relate to these two shapes for those of us that play bass. Even with bass I'm connected to CAGED as I use them as landmarks to play up and down the neck.

  11. #10
    Thanks fep, one of them is 6. Just fixed. Did it in a rush.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    Those shapes really are the biggest strengths of guitar. People can learn fast that crazy scale they need and apply them in different keys without too much trouble. Of course, these are shortcuts and have drawbacks.
    I agree with that. Though things that are "shortcuts with drawbacks" can also be traps as much as strengths.
    They work for your average rock/blues hobbyist to learn the pentatonic scale quickly and improvise on blues in all keys without knowing which notes are the b3rd's, which ones are the b7's. But for Jazz I don't think that works very well.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 01-26-2018 at 10:29 PM.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    OK. My opinion is that your points are well intended, but nevertheless faulty.
    Do you mind elaborating on what do you think is faulty? I know this post can be confusing, I just want to make sure we are on the same page as to what the post means.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Do you mind elaborating on what do you think is faulty? I know this post can be confusing, I just want to make sure we are on the same page as to what the post means.
    Sure thing, but first please elaborate on what you mean by

    "memorize the fret board" and "learning the fret board".

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175


    |6| |7|1|
    |3|4| |5|
    | |1| |2|


    |7|1| | | |
    | |5| |6| |
    | |2| |3|4|
    | | | | |1|

    When you start on the root note (say on the sixth string) and descend, you have a choice of 2 continuations (second note on the same string or second note on the next string) the rest is forced by the minimal stretch rule.
    Your diagrams still need to be explained; as shown and explained so far they are still meaningless.

    On my guitar, if I start the root note on the sixth string and descend, I don't have a next string to continue descending... ?

    What minimal stretch rule?

    Please tell me you are not a guitar teacher.

  16. #15

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    Mind boggling blind spot.....huh?

  17. #16

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    Scale diagrams seem to be easy enough for a beginner to learn a scale in a few minutes. Relating them to chords is important in a jazz context. Can't comment on your diagrams as i don't understand them. But if you found a way that works better for you that's a good thing, many creative approaches have been born this way..

  18. #17

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    Like most people I learned scale patterns to begin with and spent some time trying to join them up and move between them. I think it's important to use the patterns that appear on the fretboard since it's something that makes the guitar fairly unique.

    But it as for actually learning the fretboard, all the notes, switching between positions - a classical guitar approach made that much quicker for me and also taught me to sight read at the same time. I used Frederick Noad's Solo Guitar. Just learned the notes on each string, played simple music with them reading standard notation, then moved on to the next position and did the same. I believe this is the quickest way to know the fretboard. I don't really use patterns much now for scales and arpeggios, although I still use them for thinking about chord changes.

  19. #18

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    It's all mind boggling. Thanks for the post. It's nice to know others are as boggled as I am. Good luck!

    David

  20. #19

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    I think I understand where this is headed.

    I created a a pair of videos for my students using the 2 basic shapes to move around the circle of 5ths without moving all over the fretboard. In the first video I show the one octave shapes going through all keys, staying within a span of about 6 frets. The second video shows each scale expanding out to the larger shape or fingering that you would associate with the ‘caged’ system as I understand it. (And I don’t understand much.). :-).

    These videos are on YouTube, but they don’t show the a graphic of the shapes on the screen as I’m playing each. I can provide a link to the video, but I’m not sure anyone would be interested or find it helpful.
    Last edited by ScottM; 01-27-2018 at 08:54 AM.

  21. #20

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    I learned 7 Positions of the major scale over 2 octaves in a traditional approach, but I started using more 1 octave shapes (scale and arpeggio) and connecting them - when I started to practice bass where you have to change position if you want to play 2 octaves on a 4 string bass. (like fep mentioned) I know there is videos by Joe Hubbard on bass and Matt Warnock on guitar about moving one octave shapes. (including the ones with stretches) A similar approach is by Paul Gilbert:



    P.S. something I found out playing pentatonic on a 6 string bass tuned in 4ths is that all 5 positions of the pentatonic are the same shape with different starting points, repeating (per string) 3 whole steps and 2 minor thirds ;-)
    P.P.S. playing 3 note per string scales the pattern (per string) is: 3 times whole tone whole tone, 2 times half tone whole tone, 2 times whole tone half tone - (so it takes 7 strings before it repeats)

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Your diagrams still need to be explained; as shown and explained so far they are still meaningless.

    On my guitar, if I start the root note on the sixth string and descend, I don't have a next string to continue descending... ?

    What minimal stretch rule?

    Please tell me you are not a guitar teacher.
    Yes I meant ascend. May be this is more complicated to explain with a post and a diagram than I initially thought and I did in a rush.
    By minimal stretch rule, I mean basically staying in one position. So if you started on the 6th sting (index finger) and then played the second note on the 5th sting (second diagram) every other note in the diagram are the most logical choices. That is playing 3rd on the 5 string requires no stretch. If you tried to play the one on 4th it'd be much harder. CAGED and other positional systems also share this property which is super logical.
    The point is, someone who wants to learn the Major scale on the guitar is typically given a major scale diagram much like the link in the second edit of the post and told to memorize it (after that the Mixolidian, Dorian then bebop versions followed by the Altered and more and million other arpeggios).
    The alternative I am suggesting is the 2 one octave forms where the student can quickly start using. But that's not all:
    - These forms focus on scale formula (each degree and their intervallic relationships to the root and to others). So when the student needs to learn the Mixolidian they just need to flatten the 7th and done.
    - These forms automatically generalize to the entire fretboard as you move the roots in different positions (keeping root to be the same note). By doing that you are generating the traditional CAGED diagrams.
    - These forms allow instant application to the study and practice of tunes.
    - Same approach can be applied to arpeggios.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    Scale diagrams seem to be easy enough for a beginner to learn a scale in a few minutes. Relating them to chords is important in a jazz context. Can't comment on your diagrams as i don't understand them. But if you found a way that works better for you that's a good thing, many creative approaches have been born this way..
    I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're talking about but a few weeks ago I was messing around with 3 notes per string major scales and found that the patterns build off of quartal chord voicings using starting notes across adjacent strings. That boggled my mind a lot, it didn't take too long to realize that I can do this with 'non 3nps' scale positions as well albeit with different results (triad shapes).

    Few examples (for non 3 nps positions)

    C Major Scale -> A minor triad 1st inversion

    D Dorian starting with middle finger -> D minor triad

    D Dorian starting with first finger -> G Major triad 2nd inversion

    For standard tuning the quartal thing 3 notes per string is easy to see the chords. Its a bit harder to see the non 3 nps scale shapes at times though for standard tuning (looking at jguitar website lol).

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    Sure thing, but first please elaborate on what you mean by

    "memorize the fret board" and "learning the fret board".
    I give an example:
    - "memorize the fretboard": Memorize five shapes where you can move around to different keys. May be know which of those notes are the roots but not much more. But hey you can play the major scale in all keys.
    - "learn the fretboard": You can ascend from the 3rd to the 6rd of the scale in one bar connecting to the 5 th of the next scale in the second bar, followed by descending from the 5th so that you're half step away from the 9th of the next chord.

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM
    I think I understand where this is headed.

    I created a a pair of videos for my students using the 2 basic shapes to move around the circle of 5ths without moving all over the fretboard. In the first video I show the one octave shapes going through all keys, staying within a span of about 6 frets. The second video shows each scale expanding out to the larger shape or fingering that you would associate with the ‘caged’ system as I understand it. (And I don’t understand much.). :-).

    These videos are on YouTube, but they don’t show the a graphic of the shapes on the screen as I’m playing each. I can provide a link to the video, but I’m not sure anyone would be interested or find it helpful.
    I would be interested in checking them out.

  26. #25

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    the whole thing about staying in a position is very useful in jazz, because there are a lot of chords to follow and outline. Most improvisers are more concerned about where the chords and arpeggios are going, might not even think of scales when playing. So my thinking in building a scale shape is that it has to be based around a chord. 3 notes per string work great in metal, fusion and classical playing, cause of the technical symmetry they provide, but don't work that great for jazz cause they take you away from where the chord is.

    Shapes are just a stepping stone anyways. You learn them, learn to hear them and connect them, and then learn various chords that might exist in them and mix everything. And the simpler the better, that 's why i find the 5 position approach great. You learn your basic 5 shapes, then move to 3 octave scales, figuring out ways to cover all that fretboard..

  27. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by generalduke
    I learned 7 Positions of the major scale over 2 octaves in a traditional approach, but I started using more 1 octave shapes (scale and arpeggio) and connecting them
    That's exactly my experience and the whole point of the post. I realized memorizing CAGED and 3 note per string shapes was a waste of time when I started over with one octave shapes. My pentatonic knowledge is still shaky because I still haven't made the transition to one octave shapes for pentatonics which I supposedly memorized in all positions a decade ago. Because that approach doesn't lend it self well to, say, instantly superimposing minor pentatonic starting from the 3rd of the chord you're playing over.
    I have to admit memorizing CAGED way did wonders to burn that same blues lick in whatever key I was playing though
    I still use Caged but less and less as I think more about linking the scales with drop 2 and drop 3 chords.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I would be interested in checking them out.
    Well, here are the links. (... or perhaps the videos will show in the post?)


    Keep in mind that I put these up to supplement concepts I had discussed and diagrammed for my students. The premise is that we reduced major scales down to 2 basic, one-octave shapes starting with 2nd or 4th finger. The 2 fingerings do not change, but they do required the adjustments (shifts) for string 2-3.




  29. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM
    Well, here are the links. (... or perhaps the videos will show in the post?)


    Keep in mind that I put these up to supplement concepts I had discussed and diagrammed for my students. The premise is that we reduced major scales down to 2 basic, one-octave shapes starting with 2nd or 4th finger. The 2 fingerings do not change, but they do required the adjustments (shifts) for string 2-3.
    These are certainly more along the lines of what I am trying to say in the post. That's how most instruments other then guitar is learnt I think.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    Most improvisers are more concerned about where the chords and arpeggios are going, might not even think of scales when playing. So my thinking in building a scale shape is that it has to be based around a chord.

    Shapes are just a stepping stone anyways. You learn them, learn to hear them and connect them, and then learn various chords that might exist in them and mix everything. And the simpler the better, that 's why i find the 5 position approach great. You learn your basic 5 shapes, then move to 3 octave scales, figuring out ways to cover all that fretboard..
    +1, Mostly I don't think of scales, I'm playing off of chord shapes.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I give an example:
    - "memorize the fretboard": Memorize five shapes where you can move around to different keys. May be know which of those notes are the roots but not much more. But hey you can play the major scale in all keys.


    OK. In your first post you wrote the text below so it's a little confusing. Meaning, either the scale fingering pattern diagrams are a way to memorize the fretboard or they're not.

    Anyway, I think I understand where you're headed now so I'll make another post.




    "I am talking about learning from fretboard diagrams. Caged system or any other positional system. You can hardly pick up a guitar book that doesn't have one. There is a ridiculously easier and more musical way (I'll get to that shortly).
    What I don't agree is using positional playing as a way to memorize the fretboard"




  32. #31

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    A few random observations about this:

    1. What you are referring to in guitar books are diagrams of scale fingering patterns, that span six strings.

    2. Some of these "scale fingering patterns that span six strings" remain in one position, while others require the player to either shift or stretch out of position on a string or two.

    3. When we play the guitar, and with the exception of passages where notes are spaced far apart time wise, we generally don't play consecutive notes by traversing up and down the fretboard. In other words, most of the time we are either playing in position or shifting/sliding to a new one.

    In other words 99.99% of the time we are playing in a position, even if we only stay there briefly.


    Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 01-27-2018 at 02:56 PM.

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    A few random observations about this:

    1. What you are referring to in guitar books are diagrams of scale fingering patterns, that span six strings.

    2. Some of these scale fingering patterns that span six strings remain in one position, while others require the player to either shift or stretch out of position on a string or two.

    3. When we play the guitar, and with the exception of passages where notes are spaced far apart time wise, we generally don't play consecutive notes by traversing up and down the fretboard. In other words, most of the time we are either playing in position or silently shifting to a new one.

    In other words 99.99% of the time we are playing in a position, even if we only stay there briefly.



    So, what do we make of these facts?

    1. Regarding visual fingering patterns, these aid memory through the minds eye, so to speak. Pattern Recognition is essential for learning. That applies to both animals and machines.

    2. Top pedagogues (William Leavitt, Aaron Shearer to name two) instruct students to learn scales in:
    • 1, 2, and 3 octaves,
    • in position and shifting between positions (obviously)


    3. There are some nice "along the neck" exercises that Mick Goodrick recommends to aid fretboard learning. Most jazzers agree that they're worthwhile.


    But here is the essential point - these scale fingering patterns across all six strings are a starting point. It's what you do with them that enables you to learn the instrument. Just check out any good jazz patterns book and you will get a massive workout that will force you to learn all the subtleties and minutiae of scales, arpeggios, intervals, chromatics, etc. Add transcribed jazz solos to that. That's really where and how you'll learn the instrument.
    Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 01-27-2018 at 02:55 PM.

  34. #33

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    [QUOTE=Tal_175;840117]Sorry for the explosive title. I really want to get others opinion on this as I haven't seen this point discussed anywhere and it's causing so much grief to people attempting to learn fretboard in my opinion (I certainly suffered from it).
    I am talking about learning from fretboard diagrams. Caged system or any other positional system. You can hardly pick up a guitar book that doesn't have one. There is a ridiculously easier and more musical way (I'll get to that shortly).
    I am not saying that positional playing is wrong (I know that's debated to death already). I think positional playing is useful. What I don't agree is using positional playing as a way to memorize the fretboard. Positional system should be something one arrives at after learning the fretboard, not a starting point.
    Let me just state the simple alternative. Let's take the major scale. There are 2 one octave forms that require minimal finger stretch. All Caged diagrams amount to stacking these forms and adjusting them for the tuning of the high E and B strings:

    The diagrams are confusing. It took me a while to figure out that the numbers are scale degree and you only show 4 strings.

    That said, I've rarely gotten anything useful out of the kind of diagram which shows a portion of the fingerboard and then covers it with dots representing a scale or mode.

    Arnie Berle used to write a GP column that was filled with them. It was overwhelming. I could not figure out how I was supposed to memorize all those vaguely similar clumps of dots. And, it's 5 patterns, more or less, just for the major scale (assuming you play out of 5 positions), 5 more for each of the 6 other modes of the major scale, then melodic minor, harmonic minor, diminished, etc etc. I know that there is overlap which allows for short cuts, but I could never figure out how to make that stuff usable.

    I do use some patterns, but I found them by sound, or by note-name.

    I know that some players play out of chord shapes (I believe Joe Pass was one, although he took it to a very high level). So, in way that's playing out of patterns.

    I did it by learning to read standard notation. You start near the nut, learn the notes, read exercises and then take them up an octave. After 6 months or so, you know the fingerboard cold, and the bonus is that you can read.

    That said, I also understand that there are great players who did it differently.

  35. #34

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    [QUOTE=rpjazzguitar;840433]
    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Sorry for the explosive title. I really want to get others opinion on this as I haven't seen this point discussed anywhere and it's causing so much grief to people attempting to learn fretboard in my opinion (I certainly suffered from it).
    I am talking about learning from fretboard diagrams. Caged system or any other positional system. You can hardly pick up a guitar book that doesn't have one. There is a ridiculously easier and more musical way (I'll get to that shortly).
    I am not saying that positional playing is wrong (I know that's debated to death already). I think positional playing is useful. What I don't agree is using positional playing as a way to memorize the fretboard. Positional system should be something one arrives at after learning the fretboard, not a starting point.
    Let me just state the simple alternative. Let's take the major scale. There are 2 one octave forms that require minimal finger stretch. All Caged diagrams amount to stacking these forms and adjusting them for the tuning of the high E and B strings:

    The diagrams are confusing. It took me a while to figure out that the numbers are scale degree and you only show 4 strings.

    That said, I've rarely gotten anything useful out of the kind of diagram which shows a portion of the fingerboard and then covers it with dots representing a scale or mode.

    Arnie Berle used to write a GP column that was filled with them. It was overwhelming. I could not figure out how I was supposed to memorize all those vaguely similar clumps of dots. And, it's 5 patterns, more or less, just for the major scale (assuming you play out of 5 positions), 5 more for each of the 6 other modes of the major scale, then melodic minor, harmonic minor, diminished, etc etc. I know that there is overlap which allows for short cuts, but I could never figure out how to make that stuff usable.

    I do use some patterns, but I found them by sound, or by note-name.

    I know that some players play out of chord shapes (I believe Joe Pass was one, although he took it to a very high level). So, in way that's playing out of patterns.

    I did it by learning to read standard notation. You start near the nut, learn the notes, read exercises and then take them up an octave. After 6 months or so, you know the fingerboard cold, and the bonus is that you can read.

    That said, I also understand that there are great players who did it differently.

    I hear ya, but I think that's yet another either/or take on a guitar subject.

    I have observed synergistic effects. That is, knowing my fingering patterns supported my reading, and reading enabled me to exploit the fingering patterns for musical performance.

    In other words, both are useful.

  36. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    2. Top pedagogues (William Leavitt, Aaron Shearer to name two) instruct students to learn scales in:
    • 1, 2, and 3 octaves,
    • in position and shifting between positions (obviously)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    That said, I've rarely gotten anything useful out of the kind of diagram which shows a portion of the fingerboard and then covers it with dots representing a scale or mode.

    Arnie Berle used to write a GP column that was filled with them. It was overwhelming. I could not figure out how I was supposed to memorize all those vaguely similar clumps of dots.
    I guess it's my turn to be confused about your post
    These two quotes above are exactly in defense of my post.

    When I first started to learn Jazz, I spend most of the first year trying to memorize scales and arpeggios from those fretboard diagrams (I had a Jazz guitar instructor who also encouraged me to do it).
    If I could go back I would ditch all that and do the following. Learn one octave major scale, mixolidian scale and dorian scale. And took a standard, say Donna Lee,
    AbMaj7 F7 Bb7 Bb7 ...
    I'd immediately start practicing these one octave scale pattens by playing them (Ab major, F Mixo, Bb Mixo ...) with the backing track/metronome and start making melodies with them, connecting them. All using 2 one octave shapes only. This can be achieved very quickly within days. It should also be applied to arpeggios. Gradually play those octaves in different parts of the fretboard connecting them to get 2, 3 octaves etc. Also important would be to regularly review all my intervals octaves, fifths, thirds ... on the fretboard (fretboard geometry if you will).
    I think this is a fundamentally different approach than what one would be inclined to do if one is faced with all these 5 or 7 position fretboard diagrams as a starting point.
    I am not against using patterns, to the contrary I am suggesting using one octave forms as the patterns instead of diagrams with black dots covering the fretboard. One should also be aware of intervallic patterns in the octaves as well (all fifths, octaves, sixths etc.)

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I guess it's my turn to be confused about your post
    These two quotes above are exactly in defense of my post.
    )
    I can see how that might be confusing, since I was agreeing with you! <g>

  38. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I can see how that might be confusing, since I was agreeing with you! <g>
    Oh good. My post seem to have gotten so many negative reactions I just assumed you were refuting it. I'll read it again.

  39. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I can see how that might be confusing, since I was agreeing with you! <g>
    Actually I think I misquoted you. I one of them was from Jazzstdnt.

  40. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    So, what do we make of these facts?

    1. Regarding visual fingering patterns, these aid memory through the minds eye, so to speak. Pattern Recognition is essential for learning. That applies to both animals and machines.

    2. Top pedagogues (William Leavitt, Aaron Shearer to name two) instruct students to learn scales in:
    • 1, 2, and 3 octaves,
    • in position and shifting between positions (obviously)


    3. There are some nice "along the neck" exercises that Mick Goodrick recommends to aid fretboard learning. Most jazzers agree that they're worthwhile.


    But here is the essential point - these scale fingering patterns across all six strings are a starting point. It's what you do with them that enables you to learn the instrument. Just check out any good jazz patterns book and you will get a massive workout that will force you to learn all the subtleties and minutiae of scales, arpeggios, intervals, chromatics, etc. Add transcribed jazz solos to that. That's really where and how you'll learn the instrument.
    My third from the last post was meant to be a response to this post. I included a quote from another user by accident.

  41. #40

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    Well in summary for me at least, you seem to be sorting your way through guitar instruction materials and topics and finding some parts confusing, then finding ways to break through those challenges. Later in this thread you broached the topic of learning jazz improvisation on the instrument. That's a related but different topic. Fair enough. As long as you're finding some breakthroughs in understanding that work for you, that's just great.

    However, I think that the OP was troublesome because it seemed to be positing some universal hypotheses - and no disrespect - but I think that the hypotheses are fallacious. No offense.

    Best of success to you.

  42. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    Well in summary for me at least, you seem to be sorting your way through guitar instruction materials and topics and finding some parts confusing, then finding ways to break through those challenges. Later in this thread you broached the topic of learning jazz improvisation on the instrument. That's a related but different topic. Fair enough. As long as you're finding some breakthroughs in understanding that work for you, that's just great.

    However, I think that the OP was troublesome because it seemed to be positing some universal hypotheses - and no disrespect - but I think that the hypotheses are fallacious. No offense.

    Best of success to you.
    Thanks for your good wish. I think may be I wasn't able to explain what I meant in the main post well and confused you badly. Reading your posts, I am not convinced at all you got what my universal hypotheses was.
    I certainly did not say finding educational materials in this regard confusing anywhere. That's completely tangent to my point.
    I am glad some people seemed to get what I meant so it wasn't completely a wasted discussion.
    In the end, I guess we will agree to disagree.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 01-27-2018 at 06:26 PM.

  43. #42

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    [QUOTE=rpjazzguitar;840433]
    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I know that some players play out of chord shapes (I believe Joe Pass was one, although he took it to a very high level). So, in way that's playing out of patterns.
    There's a video posted hereabouts of Ron Eschete running through "CAGED" shapes between the first and sixth frets. He says that he figured this out after listening to a Joe Pass record and wondering at how accurate Pass was and how he seemed equally at home all over the neck. Ron says he later met Joe and showed him what he came up with and Joe said that's just what he did.

    Joe talked about playing out of grips, of always having an imaginary barre wherever he was on the neck. (This is one of his instructional DVDs.) But I don't think of Joe as playing out of shapes the way Charlie Christian and Herb Ellis did. Herb explicitly taught playing out of shapes---and there were just a few simple shapes---and he said Charlie Christian played that way too. Herb and Joe could both solo at the same time on a tune and not get in each other's way---they were deeply compatible to the point of seeming telepathic. But I don't think Joe thought in terms of a few basic shapes so much as knowing all the notes surrounding a particular chord grip. (There is some overlap but they're not quite the same thing.)

    Here's the Ron Eschete video.


  44. #43
    [QUOTE=MarkRhodes;840528]
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

    There's a video posted hereabouts of Ron Eschete running through "CAGED" shapes between the first and sixth frets. He says that he figured this out after listening to a Joe Pass record and wondering at how accurate Pass was and how he seemed equally at home all over the neck. Ron says he later met Joe and showed him what he came up with and Joe said that's just what he did.

    Joe talked about playing out of grips, of always having an imaginary barre wherever he was on the neck. (This is one of his instructional DVDs.) But I don't think of Joe as playing out of shapes the way Charlie Christian and Herb Ellis did. Herb explicitly taught playing out of shapes---and there were just a few simple shapes---and he said Charlie Christian played that way too. Herb and Joe could both solo at the same time on a tune and not get in each other's way---they were deeply compatible to the point of seeming telepathic. But I don't think Joe thought in terms of a few basic shapes so much as knowing all the notes surrounding a particular chord grip. (There is some overlap but they're not quite the same thing.)

    Here's the Ron Eschete video.

    I think you misquoted me I didn't say anything about Joe Pass. I think it was rpjazzguitar's post originally.
    But interesting point nevertheless.

  45. #44

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    I think learning 5 patterns is not that big of a task for someone who is already playing guitar. Certainly it could be done in a week.

  46. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    I think learning 5 patterns is not that big of a task for someone who is already playing guitar. Certainly it could be done in a week.
    Of course. I think I "learnt" all 5 shapes in 1 or 2 days initially. The difference is "learning" vs internalizing. As soon as I learnt another scale (in another 2 days). They got all mashed up. The when I tried to apply them to songs. I took me too much time to fetch the scales to play in time. May be there are people who can master scales in not time (I haven't met one) but that would be an exception.
    What I am suggesting is a way when one can learn them in more digestible and musically meaningful ways and be able to apply them musically in no time (yes those black dotted diagrams are easy to memorize initially, but not meaningful musically). Again musically meaningful is understanding scale degrees. Or why bother with scales, just play by ear.
    I am not the only one who suggests that BTW, as someone stated Willam Leavitt starts out this way as well. But 5 mysterious shapes start and end with random notes is still very prevalent way to learn scales.
    Again CAGED is useful. One can gradually get there is my point.
    Anyway I don't want to spend more time on this. I think I explained my point. I am just sharing my experience and experience of others that I observed. Especially those who learn scales and arpeggios from online sources are prone think that those "black dot" diagrams are the only way to learn their instruments.

  47. #46

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    Maybe the op's concept of 2 x
    One octave shapes would work great in P4 tuning ...

    I don't believe learning CAGED shapes is too onerous
    I mean its just moving the cowboy chords up the neck

    Where are the root notes ?, where are the thirds ? etc ...
    The beauty of the CAGED type thinking is the sounds
    available with the use of small barres in the CAGED shapes
    sounds so nicely .....

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Especially those who learn scales and arpeggios from online sources

    This is the central issue.

  49. #48
    When playing a scale ideally one should have at least 3 levels of awareness:
    - Scale degrees of each note.
    - Names of each note.
    - Visual relationships that correspond to the above two in the area of the fretboard you're playing.
    You either know your instrument or you don't that's up to you.
    What I'm saying is, you're not gonna get that awareness by memorizing CAGED diagrams.
    Moreover I am saying that CAGED diagrams obfuscate these for no good reason. It's just as easy to learn the fretboard other ways, where you get the first two for free.
    CAGED could be useful if all you do is barred cowboy chords. The more I move to different voicings, inversions, alterations of chords the more meaningless CAGED gets.

  50. #49

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    Ageed, but is it the diagrams as you said in the OP, or is it CAGED specifically, or both?

    Remember, these diagrams are a quick reference for visualization. They are helpful when one is first learning the forms.

    I have countless guitar and other music books in my shelves and have yet to encounter any instructional source that claimed that fretboard diagrams would help me master the fretboard. I think you have come to realization that you may have overestimated them. That's good.

  51. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    Ageed, but is it the diagrams as you said in the OP, or is it CAGED specifically, or both?

    Remember, these diagrams are a quick reference for visualization. They are helpful when one is first learning the forms.

    I have countless guitar and other music books in my shelves and have yet to encounter any instructional source that claimed that fretboard diagrams would help me master the fretboard. I think you have come to realization that you may have overestimated them. That's good.
    Well you started out claiming that my post was faulty. Now you come to agree with it. That's a progress
    Regarding your claim above, I am sure I can convince you about the implicit role fretboard diagrams in most instructional books play and most guitar player's perception of them. But I am just going to leave it where it is now as I think I made my points very clear and I fear it's just getting argumentative at this point.