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  1. #51

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    You might want to explore Jerry Bergonzi's method with your student.


    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Oh, you should, they'll probably love it. Problem then is getting them back to playing the old boring stuff over ordinary changes...

    I suspect this labelling of perfectly good, correct notes over chords as 'CST' is unproductive. If you know over Dm7-G7-CM7 you're basically playing notes from C major, what's wrong with that? Excellent for beginning improvisers. Then you can stick in some more clever stuff later.

    But if someone says 'Oh, C major, that's CST', like it's a disease, then I think we're into sticky waters :-)
    I absolutely agree. But you will have trouble with F on C, so they aren't all good notes... That's where it get's a little more tricky (I'd say start with C pentatonic.)

    An intelligent thing to say would be
    - Oh you are using the notes of the scale as passing tones between the 1 3 5 chord tones - traditional scale use
    - Oh you are using the 2 6 and 7 notes of the scale to enrich the C major chord sound... That's CST

    Of course, you can find many examples of Parker etc playing these notes on a C major chord is that CST? Or just refusing to resolve the phrase to the chord tone? That one is in the ear, and mind, of the beholder.

  4. #53

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    For the Dm7-G7-C example I would personally teach the student to play G mixolydian into the chord tones of C.

  5. #54
    I want to thank everyone for the thoughtful responses.

    This thread has helped me clarify my thinking about the subject -- and will help as I teach it.

  6. #55

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    OK, don't say I never do nothing for you. Examples of the 7 modes in rock/pop




    Lydian (chorus)

    Mixolydian (if you ask some people haha)



  7. #56
    Awesome, Christian!

    Should be a sticky!

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    OK, don't say I never do nothing for you. Examples of the 7 modes in rock/pop




    Lydian (chorus)

    Mixolydian (if you ask some people haha)



  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
    I would say the chorus of All Night Long is Mixolydian. It just happens to start on the bVII.
    Actually I did think that... Fair point.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
    The Byork tune sounds to me like Ab Mixolydian also, emphasizing the 3rd in the bass is not enough for me to hear 'C Locrian'.

    While I'm at it, I think the Queen tune is more Phrygian dominant (G#'s soon reveal themselves).

    I guess this is largely subjective.
    It's a tough one to find a Phrygian pop tune though ;-) And the Locrian is even harder.... (The Locrian isn't even a proper mode. Not really. There is no tradition of music in the Locrian AFAIK.)

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
    I'm not sure this even fits the bill...

    It's sort of phrygian blues?

  11. #60
    The Doors had a tune with a flamenco sound which, I guess, was phrygian. Can't recall the title.

    For Lydian Dominant I think of Forro music. Lots of Luis Gonzaga's music used that mode of melodic minor.

    Not sure about a pop lydian tune.

  12. #61

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    Dunno, but it was very good :-)

  13. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Ah Ok. It's kind of a forward motion approach in that sense. Playing pickups into the resolution.

    That's an aspect of what I'm talking about. Playing over the chord you are on is inherently static. Playing into the next chord is dynamic - more swinging. That's what I aim for in my playing.

    And that's also what Barry Harris teaches, and Hal Galper, in their own ways.
    Sorry to open back up, but was thinking about this today. One of the other aspects of the difference I hear in his approach that took me a few years to pick up on his the way he looks at harmonic rhythm. He often uses the phrase "...And that gives you access to....". Usually a statement like "then you have G7b13, which gives you access to G altered", and then he gives illustrations of playing G altered "on the weak side", after being "set up" by the G7b13.

    Anyway, he could always play altered on changes which had always sounded very ham-fisted for me, while himself sounding pretty inside, and it had to do with setting up the outside substitution by first establishing the basic reference of a more ambiguous inside 7b13 or whatever on the front end of the phrase or chord change. Subbing in different harmony on the weak side feels like a distinction.

    I feel like so much of CST discussion is about "which ONE scale for this chord?" , as opposed to him asking more about which GROUPS scales/chord patterns.

  14. #63
    My high school class is 6 kids, three of whom already have some chops.

    One learned to read music on piano and is just now switching to guitar.

    One is a complete beginner.

    I'm a parent volunteer. The band director keeps introducing tunes and wants me to somehow get the guitarists to play them, as a kind of side-track from teaching them the guitar.

    There are no straight lines in nature, eh?

    The number of things I think are important to teach, to give them a foundation for later learning include:

    1. Principles of ear training

    2. Generally good habits for playing in tune and in time.

    3. reading

    4. theory

    5. repertoire

    6. combo skills

    7. technique

    I have them for about 45 minutes per week until June.

    Lesson 1 was assessing where each student was at.

    Lesson 2 was 12 bar blues -- because the band director needed me to do it. I worked from Warren Nunes' Blues book which starts simple, but includes some voicing ideas that I think most players would get something from.

    We also talked about goals for the year. They were unanimous about learning to read. So I had them order Rhythms by Colin and Bower (the band director wants me to work from the Concert book, rather than the original treble clef book. I'm resisting it because the original book used easy keys -- for Bb instruments. Apparently, the Concert book came later and has key of Eb on page 1, so that the trumpets can play in F. I digress.

    Lesson 3 I photocopied some introductory material to show where the notes are on the staff, where they are on the guitar, and note values (quarter, half, whole, eighth). Then we started playing together -- they couldn't do it, but I made sure they all understood what they were trying to accomplish.

    Lesson 4 will be at the Twinkle Twinkle level. If they get that, Lesson 5 will be page 1 of Rhythms. More of the same for Lesson 6. And then playing everything an octave higher for Lessons 7 and 8.

    A few more weeks of that and they should have rudimentary reading and full knowledge of the fretboard.

    After that, a lesson on ear training approaches.

    Then, I'll probably start them working on the band director's tunes.

    Comments? Thoughts?

  15. #64

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    US High School age range is generally about 12/13 to 18/19. That's a very wide range. At that age, there's a vast difference between, say, a 15 year old and an 18 year old. How are old are your kids exactly?

    This band director seems to be pushing you quite hard. He doesn't seem to be giving you much initiative of your own. I'm not sure I'd like to be in that position.

  16. #65
    I didn't ask their ages, but I'd guess 14-16. One might be 17.

    I can understand that the band director wants me to help the kids with his arrangements. I didn't mind that.

    I had a reaction to the book issue since his direction makes the keys harder for the beginners.

    He had never heard of the Rhythms book. He initially approved me having the kids order it. It's about $12 or so. Then, when he saw it, he ordered every version for the entire class. That's understandable. It's a great book.

    At that point, he told me that the book I suggested was the Bb book.

    On my 53 year old copy it says "treble clef". Same on the website. Looks to me like it was originally sold for trumpet, and the author started with easy keys. First couple of pages focus on C, G and F.

    I'd guess that later, the publisher decided to do a bass clef book and had to make a decision. Easy keys vs. being able to play together with a Bb instrument. He went with the latter. The bass clef version, in fact, is a whole step down.

    The band director phoned the publisher and established that there are Concert-treble-clef, Concert-bass-clef, Bb and Eb versions and ordered them all.

    So, if your idea is to have a whole band play the exercises together, the guitarist has to read the Concert-treble-clef, which is a whole step down from the original book (now read by the Bb instruments).

    My preference is to teach beginning readers from the Bb book, with the easiest keys, and not worry about playing this stuff with other instruments. They can always switch books once they can actually read.

    If I have to use the concert book, the kids are in Eb on page 1 and in Ab by page 5 of a 47 page book. Maybe that would work better on horn -- the problem with guitar is that there's lots of stuff they can play without reading, so you don't want to give them a reason to give up prematurely.

    One other thing about the book. The exercises sound like syncopated swing lines and include chord symbols. That means the students can pair up and trade off melody and comping. So, I d/l'ed a page of blank chord grids and wrote in the chords they'll need, circling the roots. Only one grid per shape - they have to move the grip by finding the correct root on the fingerboard. If we can get through this book, they'll be prepared to read big band type charts.


  17. #66

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    I don't know, sounds like a bit of a challenge to me. Wish I could help more.

  18. #67

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    I don't think you have enough contact with them to teach them much, but you can give them the experience of being involved in music.

  19. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I'm a parent volunteer. The band director keeps introducing tunes and wants me to somehow get the guitarists to play them, as a kind of side-track from teaching them the guitar.
    Hey, rp. Is this a jazz band context? Jazz band tunes?

  20. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Hey, rp. Is this a jazz band context? Jazz band tunes?
    The band director is a jazz guy. The first tune he had them do was a 12 bar blues. I haven't seen the chart, but I expect swing rhythm and jazz style changes.

    He usually has the bands doing jazz standards, or jazzy arrangements of pop tunes.

    The goal, I think, is for the guitarists to be able to read a big band type arrangement, including the single note lines. Also, playing the chords in a way that works well with the style. So, that not every G7 is 320001 or 353422.

  21. #70
    Yeah. I was just going to say that if time is short, basic approaches to comping are probably the biggest priority for young guitarists in a jazz band. Everything else is somewhat "extra credit". Comping, playing the head, and covering a basic solo. For comping, shell voicings are a good starting point.

    Willie Thomas's Jazz Everyone site is actually pretty good with this. His program is built around stuff he used to do in schools. In terms of comping, it starts with shell voicings, and then adds ninths, thirteenths etc. It's actually a pretty solid, easy approach, for being a non-guitar-specific program overall.

    For soloing, I would ask the band director what approaches he uses for soloing on these tunes with absolute beginners. A lot of these guys do this stuff with middle schoolers as well.

    Band directors have pretty clear approaches for beginners, usually based around pentatonics/blues etc. Rather than coming up with everything from scratch, you might think about it from the angle of just facilitating what he's doing otherwise, on all instruments - but in your case, specifically for guitar. Guitarists genuinely need some extra help. So, it's cool that he has you as a resource. Good luck.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 11-12-2017 at 08:49 PM.

  22. #71

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    What????? There are other G7s????

    Mind = blown

  23. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    What????? There are other G7s????

    Mind = blown

    There's also xx 12 12 12 13. And that's pretty much it.

  24. #73

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