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  1. #1

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    You know that drummer that just doesn't know when to stop the solo?

    How to teach the value of brevity when soloing-screen-shot-2017-09-03-1-40-01-pm-png

    Great trumpeter, by the way. Gave John Scofield a start by recording with him at the beginning of Sco's career.
    David
    Last edited by TH; 09-03-2017 at 03:11 PM.

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  3. #2

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    I had some "Whiplash" type teachers in music school and they were usually in the long run the most care and most helpful. No one was physical, but verbally they'd tear you a new one. Then in computer biz a lot of Whiplash like behavior between peers and department managers as long and nothing physical let his go on because it paid off in the long run. Scott Henderson in his open counseling doesn't hold back and some of his tearing into students would be talked about for a long time. Some people just don't get it and need a verbal bitch slap to wakeup. In the real world you might not get "whiplashed" you just lose the gig, or job, promotion, etc.

    Okay start flaming away everytime I say what I did the whines and flame start. I still have my asbestos underwear and rhino thick skin from music school and the computer industry so doesn't bother me.

  4. #3

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    I'd have to respect someone a lot to take it as a lesson and not abuse though. Heh heh, that guy in the Whiplash movie, I did not respect as a character or the type of teacher he represented.
    Terumasa Hino, yeah he's got the spirit of Blue Mitchell in him and I'd be embarrassed to have been called out for shooting my load on his watch. That's what would've hurt. Seriously.

    David

  5. #4

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    Brevity is the soul of hit?

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    I had some "Whiplash" type teachers in music school and they were usually in the long run the most care and most helpful. No one was physical, but verbally they'd tear you a new one. Then in computer biz a lot of Whiplash like behavior between peers and department managers as long and nothing physical let his go on because it paid off in the long run. Scott Henderson in his open counseling doesn't hold back and some of his tearing into students would be talked about for a long time. Some people just don't get it and need a verbal bitch slap to wakeup. In the real world you might not get "whiplashed" you just lose the gig, or job, promotion, etc.

    Okay start flaming away everytime I say what I did the whines and flame start. I still have my asbestos underwear and rhino thick skin from music school and the computer industry so doesn't bother me.
    Har har, Scott seems such a nice , reasonable guy on the guitarwank podcasts !
    Now we know ...

  7. #6

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    No doubt Mr Burkle wanted to slap the shit out of me when I fought hard against learning p-i-m-a and tried to fake it with a flatpick. Bless his heart, he only embarrassed the hell out of me in front of the class.

    But no doubt he wanted to slap the bejesus outta me. And I can't say I blame him.

  8. #7

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    Drummers...explains a lot...

  9. #8

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    Terumasa played in Wellington New Zealand sometime C. 1980....he had Sco in his band [he was playing chord-melody solos
    all night at that time] ....also in the band were Ron McClure and Adam Nussbaum IIRC ......Anyway ....I was sitting with a bunch
    of my buds on the top part of one of those type of bench seats to get a better view.....Hino played this one note ....kind of Miles like....
    Like a shriek ! ....The 4 or 5 of us fell backwards taking the seat with us.....we were laughing in disbelief.....#1 because
    one note had such power ...and #2 because none of us broke any bones.....Yow! ....What a gig .....Never forgot the power
    of Terumasa Hino San.

    And that's my story......
    Last edited by Moonray; 09-04-2017 at 01:01 AM.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    Har har, Scott seems such a nice , reasonable guy on the guitarwank podcasts !
    Now we know ...
    Oh Scott can be very nice and helpful to even beginners, but hang at his open counseling with an attitude or be a wise ass he will let you have it.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonray
    Terumasa played in Wellington New Zealand sometime C. 1980....he had Sco in his band [he was playing chord-melody solos
    all night at that time] ....also in the band were Ron McClure and Adam Nussbaum IIRC ......Anyway ....I was sitting with a bunch
    of my buds on the top part of one of those type of bench seats to get a better view.....Hino played this one note ....kind of Miles like....
    Like a shriek ! ....The 4 or 5 of us fell backwards taking the seat with us.....we were laughing in disbelief.....#1 because
    one note had such power ...and #2 because none of us broke any bones.....Yow! ....What a gig .....Never forgot the power
    of Terumasa Hino San.

    And that's my story......
    You saw that band?! That was a great era for Sco. I remember thinking he was re-defining the guitar with every note, and his sound was instantly recognizable. I couldn't get enough of him. He was playing with everybody as a side man, Billy Cobham, Nils-Henning Orsted Pederson, Leibman but that was even before he did his first recording as a leader. Then there was a session he did for JVC, and I believe Terumasa Hino and the band you mentioned I think, was a touring band. The first session was May Dance, recorded under the trumpeter's name, and then John recorded his own as a leader, simply titled John Scofield. For the longest time available only in Japan and really hard to find.
    Those cats were the real deal. Their live performances were and are something that the studio recordings won't even come close to.

    David
    Last edited by TH; 09-04-2017 at 02:43 PM.

  12. #11

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    Another fantastic place to learn about brevity in solos is the old Nat King Cole trio recordings. The song got sung and solos played inside of 3 minutes. Oscar Moore and Irving Ashby give the lesson by just playing wonderful, and wondrously short, solos. they say more in 8 bars than I can say in 64.

  13. #12

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    It's easy to slap a kid, ain't it? And what was he doing for four months while preparing the ensemble for this concert?

    The way to avoid such things is to make an example out of someone well before the concert. Dismiss or suspend them from the band for messing up or not practicing, not taking direction etc. The others will get it, if they care.

    How much were they paying these kids for the show anyway? Oh. Yeah.

    Just another Double Doosh who thinks music is the most important thing in the world, can't control himself, has no better teaching tools than nineteenth century methods, and is full of self-important arrogance. If I were that kid's dad I'd re-arrange his face.
    Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 09-04-2017 at 01:03 PM.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    I had some "Whiplash" type teachers in music school and they were usually in the long run the most care and most helpful. No one was physical, but verbally they'd tear you a new one. Then in computer biz a lot of Whiplash like behavior between peers and department managers as long and nothing physical let his go on because it paid off in the long run. Scott Henderson in his open counseling doesn't hold back and some of his tearing into students would be talked about for a long time. Some people just don't get it and need a verbal bitch slap to wakeup. In the real world you might not get "whiplashed" you just lose the gig, or job, promotion, etc.
    The people who say Scott seems like a reasonable guy on Guitar Wank? Really? Haha, I guess I'm showing my Britishness... .

    I really enjoy the interplay between Scott Henderson and Bruce Foreman on those guitar wank podcasts. Scott is just so full on... everything is fantastic or terrible. 'Oh man I had the worst tour, sound engineers are the ****ing worst they should all be shot', while Bruce is all like 'gee... I don't know.'

    I tend to see things more from Bruce's perspective - I think Scott does talk nonsense sometimes IMO in the pursuit of making a point or working out some personal gripe (or when he goes outside of his area of expertise), which Bruce calls him out on in his very understated way, but I like Scott's vibe. We don't guys like that in the UK so much - very American....

    (As a person I think I am more like Scott than Bruce, but also I try to be constructive to my students. Mind you I don't have to teach glazed eyed slack jawed ingrates at undergraduate level :-)

    Okay start flaming away everytime I say what I did the whines and flame start. I still have my asbestos underwear and rhino thick skin from music school and the computer industry so doesn't bother me.
    BTW it doesn't take foul language or verbal tirades to be a brutal teacher. Classical musicians are (in general) pretty polite and genteel in their words and demeanor, but I have seen some young players absolutely dissected in the masterclasses.

    On the other hand the classic one is the Russian piano teacher (IIRC) who would only give 'Nyet' as feedback.
    Last edited by christianm77; 09-04-2017 at 12:17 PM.

  15. #14

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    My doctoral professor used to tell the story of his first draft of his doctoral dissertation (about 2 years work!) being returned to him. He was seated at a table with the professor on the other end. The guy slid his paper down that table, looked up and said "Stilgeburt!" (Swiss-German for "born dead.")

    A bad day.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt

    The way to avoid such things is to make an example out of someone well before the concert. Dismiss or suspend them from the band for messing up or not practicing, not taking direction etc. The others will get it, if they care.

    .


    That's exactly what I first wondered. I was so curious to know what kind of attitude may have led up to this breaking point. I've seen kids who were absolutely impervious to an instructors best efforts to teach points of real value, whether for performance, on material or just about fostering an attitude of musical cooperation.
    I've been around kids, both as a teacher and as classmates, who've been so full of themselves and some notion that the universe is there to be their audience. I can tell you one thing, there are some for whom any amount of persuasion can change. It seems to be on the rise, to be honest. Rock stars who think a jazz solo is Keith Moon with a big band. When I had them as classmates, I WANTED the teacher to smack them; they ruined my experience and wasted my time. When I know them as students, I spend a lot of time trying to think of ways to smack some sense into them without having to get bailed out of jail.

    There's being a musician to play music... and there's using an audience as an ego booster. It's NOT whiplash where you push your way past everyone else to find salvation through taking over the show.

    It's the music world these days.

    David



  17. #16

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    Reminds me of the comment attributed apocryphally to Hunter Thompson:

    “The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.”


  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz

    That's exactly what I first wondered. I was so curious to know what kind of attitude may have led up to this breaking point. I've seen kids who were absolutely impervious to an instructors best efforts to teach points of real value, whether for performance, on material or just about fostering an attitude of musical cooperation.
    I've been around kids, both as a teacher and as classmates, who've been so full of themselves and some notion that the universe is there to be their audience. I can tell you one thing, there are some for whom any amount of persuasion can change. It seems to be on the rise, to be honest. Rock stars who think a jazz solo is Keith Moon with a big band. When I had them as classmates, I WANTED the teacher to smack them; they ruined my experience and wasted my time. When I know them as students, I spend a lot of time trying to think of ways to smack some sense into them without having to get bailed out of jail.

    There's being a musician to play music... and there's using an audience as an ego booster. It's NOT whiplash where you push your way past everyone else to find salvation through taking over the show.

    It's the music world these days.

    David


    The temptation to smack a kid, or an adult for that matter, will always be there. We can all relate to that.

    But there has to be accountability for doing so - no matter how "important" or powerful the smacker is. How can adults expect kids not to express themselves with their fists if they're constantly demonstrating it to them? It doesn't really work that way with kids. Monkey see, monkey do.

    On a much lighter note, the drummer in Whiplash had to step out of line at the end because the instructor had gone out of his way to set him up for failure. A classic mano a mano hero's victory and all that good stuff. Haha, loved that movie...

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    It's easy to slap a kid, ain't it? And what was he doing for four months while preparing the ensemble for this concert?

    The way to avoid such things is to make an example out of someone well before the concert. Dismiss or suspend them from the band for messing up or not practicing, not taking direction etc. The others will get it, if they care.

    How much were they paying these kids for the show anyway? Oh. Yeah.

    Just another Double Doosh who thinks music is the most important thing in the world, can't control himself, has no better teaching tools than nineteenth century methods, and is full of self-important arrogance. If I were that kid's dad I'd re-arrange his face.
    Some parents are OK with teachers dishing out corporal punishment. I'm not. They should stick to teaching. In my case it would have have been my mom re-arranging the teachers face.
    Hino is probably a good teacher who just lost it for a minute and the response was appropriate as in- don't do that again.
    On the other hand Japan is a different culture than mine and it's not up to me to define their norms.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The people who say Scott seems like a reasonable guy on Guitar Wank? Really? Haha, I guess I'm showing my Britishness... .
    k.
    I say chap , steady on , I'm British too you know

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz

    That's exactly what I first wondered. I was so curious to know what kind of attitude may have led up to this breaking point. I've seen kids who were absolutely impervious to an instructors best efforts to teach points of real value, whether for performance, on material or just about fostering an attitude of musical cooperation.
    I've been around kids, both as a teacher and as classmates, who've been so full of themselves and some notion that the universe is there to be their audience. I can tell you one thing, there are some for whom any amount of persuasion can change. It seems to be on the rise, to be honest. Rock stars who think a jazz solo is Keith Moon with a big band. When I had them as classmates, I WANTED the teacher to smack them; they ruined my experience and wasted my time. When I know them as students, I spend a lot of time trying to think of ways to smack some sense into them without having to get bailed out of jail.

    There's being a musician to play music... and there's using an audience as an ego booster. It's NOT whiplash where you push your way past everyone else to find salvation through taking over the show.

    It's the music world these days.

    David


    If you cannot play for the song, if you cannot let the song play you, perhaps it's best to shut the hell up, no?

    In the end, music is a shared experience. Nothing wrong with taking a little limelight, but never steal the song, is what I think. Give the song, and the other players, breathing space. Don't suck all of the air out of the room. Music is a conversation, not a soliloquy.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    The temptation to smack a kid, or an adult for that matter, will always be there. We can all relate to that.
    Not me, baby.

    ('Baby' betrays my gender bias.)
    Last edited by destinytot; 09-05-2017 at 03:36 AM.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Another fantastic place to learn about brevity in solos is the old Nat King Cole trio recordings. The song got sung and solos played inside of 3 minutes. Oscar Moore and Irving Ashby give the lesson by just playing wonderful, and wondrously short, solos. they say more in 8 bars than I can say in 64.
    I LOVE those recordings. Kenny may be my tone icon, but these guys including Oscar Moore are my role models for comping and structuring short, meaningful solos. I have the complete collection on CD.

    The modern group that most closely approximates the NKC attitude and feel IMO is Diana Krall and her wonderful bands. She and her mates make such concise yet articulate statements with their solos--perfect timing, too.

  24. #23

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    Jazz guitar players looking for brief, but solid and interesting solos, should check out Bauer and his only solo album, Plectrist.

    I don't think anyone had to slap Billy around during the recording session!

    Billy also has some short and sweet solos on Lee Konitz albums made during the late 50s.

    Billy helped me realize that 'saying something' in 30 seconds or so could be more interesting than noodling for minutes on end (not that there is anything wrong with noodling!).