January 2023 - 'S Wonderful!

[M-ster]

Happy new year, jazz people! Our standard for Jan 2023 will be 'S Wonderful! (George Gershwin, Ira Gershwin, 1927).

Background:
Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals ('S Wonderful!)

[AllanAllen]

What’s a simple C+7(b9) fingering?

I think 8x899x will do

[alpop]

Happy new year, jazz people! Our standard for Jan 2023 will be 'S Wonderful! (George Gershwin, Ira Gershwin, 1927).

Background:
Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals ('S Wonderful!)

Gonna start working on this and see what I get.

[ragman1]

This is from the Jazz Standards site:

'There is some speculation that this very simple melody was inspired, influenced by, or based on canonical chants that Gershwin heard as a boy in the synagogue or possibly in a Yiddish theatre production. Certainly the downward minor third could be the “mother of all intervals,” existing in virtually all folk music traditions, work chants, field hollers and sacred chants. It’s even one that children seem to know innately (“nah-nah-nah”). In addition, the pentatonic scale is the most ancient of all recorded musical scales. Underneath its “skeletal” simplicity, there is something almost mystical about this tune. Wedded to the sophisticated harmonic progression (I – bii?7 – ii7 – V7 – I) and Ira’s petulant and witty lyric (itself based on Yiddish dialect), this is a powerful piece of music.'

I'll certainly bear that in mind...

[ragman1]

What’s a simple C+7(b9) fingering?

I think 8x899x will do

I think you mean C7+.

C7+ is C7#5 but the b9 would have to be put onto the top string: 8x8999. The 5th string root one is x32324. Those shapes can be played without the roots, of course.

Another way is to put the b7 in the bass. So a (rootless) C7#5b9/Bb would be x1212x. But you might have to warn the bass player or something.

Personally, I usually do what you said: 8x899x. Much simpler.

[AllanAllen]

Thanks Ragman. 2023 is the year of chords for me. Starting by learning the inversions after jumping around the neck with my handful of shapes. Anyway, that’s a subject for another thread.

[Jimmy Smith]

^ Take every type of chord and run drop 2 and drop 3 inversions up the neck.

[ragman1]

Allan -

Don't know if you're still there but I hadn't really looked properly at the lead sheet for this tune when I answered you before. Actually, it just goes to show how what chords one plays ought to be adjusted to the tune in question. In other words, as ever, context, context, context.

On the sheet I've got there's a ton of these 7+b9 chords. When it came to playing them for a backing track (I make my own) I saw that it was going to be a nightmare trying to get that sound all the time. Basically not worth the struggle for a backing; the overall effect is more important.

So on the 6th string roots I just used a b13 shape, leaving out the b9, and on the 5th string roots I just used the usual b9 shape, leaving out the b13. I'm not saying you should do this, only telling you my thoughts on it.

There was one exception and that was the G9 after the Am7/D7 in the bridge. Playing it at the 10th fret made it very trebly (because of the top A note). I could hear it was going to interfere with the melody so I just used an ordinary G7 at the 3rd fret.

As I said, it just shows how one needn't necessarily follow a lead sheet precisely but rather use it as a basic guide. It would almost certainly be far easier on a keyboard to get all those sounds but on a guitar, not for me. I'm a fan of expedience :-)

See what you think anyway.

[AllanAllen]

^ Take every type of chord and run drop 2 and drop 3 inversions up the neck.

I'm working my way through these. Maj, Min, Dom7, m7b5. Then I'll be able to ii V I in four places, then all 12 keys, by then it'll be Autumn.

Chord Inversions & Applications For Jazz Guitar

[alpop]

Thanks Ragman. 2023 is the year of chords for me. Starting by learning the inversions after jumping around the neck with my handful of shapes. Anyway, that’s a subject for another thread.

What I did many years ago was to systematically memorize all the notes on the neck. Honestly, it took about two or three weeks of consistent effort.

I wrote out pages of random quarter notes based on which notes you could reach on all strings from each position.

Every day pick a position, set the metronome really slow, and say the note name out loud as you play it. (if you can't recognize the note in time, drop it, and stay in time, but go back later and figure it out.)

Since chord formulas are super easy to understand, (1,3,5,7,9, 11,13 plus alterations) you are now free to make your own shapes and add or leave out whatever you like on any chord.

Also it helps to memorize intervals and what they look like on the neck.

This is some pretty boring grunt work, but just make it a portion of the time you spend on your guitar. Kind of like working out at the gym will make you better at a sport you love to play.

Like you said, this off the topic of the thread, so I will shut up now.

Hopefully this is helpful to you in the "year of the chords."

[ragman1]

[Laurence Finston]

Allan -
On the sheet I've got there's a ton of these 7+b9 chords. When it came to playing them for a backing track (I make my own) I saw that it was going to be a nightmare trying to get that sound all the time. Basically not worth the struggle for a backing; the overall effect is more important.

A 7b9 chord is a root note plus a diminished seventh chord. For example, C7b9 is a C with Db, E, G, Bb, which would be C# dim, Db dim., E dim., G dim., A# dim or Bb dim. Another arranger might well have notated the diminished chord instead of the 7b9 chord. You can always substitute the dim. chord for a 7b9. If there's a bass player, you can rely on him/her to play the root of the 7b9 chord.

With the "E" chord form (root on the 6th string), it's very easy to play a 7b9. It's just the normal dim. chord form on the top 4 strings with your index finger on the root.

Hope this helps.

[Laurence Finston]

Conversely, a dim. chord is a 7b9 without the root. So, you can possibly substitute a dim. chord for any dom. 7th chord with a root a half-step below one of the notes of the dim. chord. For example, you could substitute C dim (C Eb Gb Bbb = A) for B7, D7, F7, or G#7/Ab7, with your ears being the final judge. If you don't believe me, try it!

[Jimmy Smith]

I'm working my way through these. Maj, Min, Dom7, m7b5. Then I'll be able to ii V I in four places, then all 12 keys, by then it'll be Autumn.

Chord Inversions & Applications For Jazz Guitar

Yep, that's what's up. If you get those down you'll always see a chord wherever your hand is on the neck. You'll be like I am trained. I guess m7b5 is the same as m6 so you can use that as a tonic minor. And m7 is the same as maj6, so those are interchangeable too.

[Laurence Finston]

I find the best way to learn chords on any fretted instrument is to play chord melodies. I've practiced other things, but this is the one that has helped me the most. It takes you all over the neck. There aren't that many possibilities and they fall into a few categories. I'm currently working on this for mandolin/mandola.

[Laurence Finston]

I guess m7b5 is the same as m6 so you can use that as a tonic minor. And m7 is the same as maj6, so those are interchangeable too.

Cm7b5 = C Eb Gb Bb = Ebm6. C min. is the relative minor of Eb maj. By an amazing coincidence, Dm7 = D F Ab C = Fm6 and D min. is the relative minor of F maj. And so on.

Cm7 = C Eb G Bb = Eb maj. 6. It's the same thing in green, as we say in German.

[Laurence Finston]

What can you use a m7b5 for? Well, diatonically speaking, there are three minor seventh chords in any maj. or minor key and one m7b5. For example, in C maj./A min., you've got Dm7, Em7, Am7 and Bm7b5 a.k.a. B half-diminished. To figure out how to use Dm7b5, Em7b5 or Am7b5, you have to see what changes when you lower the fifth. The key to anything like this is to check what the voice leading is. Let's say we substitute Dm7b5 for Dm7 in a ii - V - I cadence. We lower the A to Ab. Then, when we go to V, i.e., G7, one voice will probably go from Ab to G instead of A to G, depending on the chord positions used. So, with respect to G, you go from b9 to 1 instead of 9 to 1. That's likely to sound pretty good. Or it might go to B. I don't have a good sense of how this would sound. The prospect doesn't excite me, but I would have to play it to be sure. Maybe it will sound great.

It's worth noting that m7b5 is a diatonic chord, that is, it's the chord with the root on the seventh interval of a maj. scale. In C, Bm7b5 = B D F A, which has the same notes as G9 without the root. So, it has a dominant character and can used as a substitute for G7. If there's a bass player, he or she might play the G.

In A min., it's on the second interval, so a "normal" ii - V - i cadence would use Bm7b5. So, if I wanted to modulate from C maj. to C min., using Dm7b5 in a cadence would be a good choice.

[ragman1]

A 7b9 chord is a root note plus a diminished seventh chord. For example, C7b9 is a C with Db, E, G, Bb, which would be C# dim, Db dim., E dim., G dim., A# dim or Bb dim. Another arranger might well have notated the diminished chord instead of the 7b9 chord. You can always substitute the dim. chord for a 7b9. If there's a bass player, you can rely on him/her to play the root of the 7b9 chord.

With the "E" chord form (root on the 6th string), it's very easy to play a 7b9. It's just the normal dim. chord form on the top 4 strings with your index finger on the root.

Hope this helps.

You didn't read it properly. It said 7+b9. That's 7#5b9, which is an altered chord. Coming from a lead sheet like this:



Allan's question was about voicing, i.e. workable fingering.

[Laurence Finston]

You didn't read it properly. It said 7+b9. That's 7#5b9, which is an altered chord.

You are quite correct. I take it all back. However, I will point out these changes have nothing to do with the published sheet music, which I have in front of me, and even less to do with George Gershwin's own arrangement for solo piano, which I also have in front of me (Gershwin at the Keyboard. 18 Song Hits Arranged by the Composer for the Piano). In the latter, the final cadence goes from Bb7 with the sixth (G) and no fifth (F) resolving to Eb maj. In the former (The Best of George Gershwin, publ. by Carisch), in the first ending, there's Bb11/C and Bb7 and in the second ending, it's Abmaj7 to Eb, i.e., IV - I, an "imperfect" cadence.

The arrangement you posted is somebody's arrangement. If that's what one wants to play, then there's nothing wrong with that. The alterations aren't "canonical", that's not the song, that's somebody's idea of one way to play it.

Edited: C7+b9 = C E G# Bb Db = E maj. b5 #5 6 = G# B# C# D## A# = G# maj. 3 4 9 or G# maj. 3 9 11 and so on. It's an ambiguous chord. I would say it's too complex to play on the guitar and maybe I'm missing a revelation, but I don't feel like going to the effort of trying to find voicings for these changes.

[Laurence Finston]

The arrangement you posted is somebody's arrangement. If that's what one wants to play, then there's nothing wrong with that. The alterations aren't "canonical", that's not the song, that's somebody's idea of one way to play it.

This is exactly what I mean when I've talked about "reliable texts" on other threads. That's why I always try to find sources as close to the originals as possible when I make lead sheets. With this kind of music, there's hardly ever an "urtext". What was copyrighted was in most cases a lead sheet, but it was never published as such. The closest we can get as far as written material is concerned is the original arrangement for piano or the vocal score. However, harmony isn't rocket science, it's usually possible to figure out the chords to a popular song of this era from a recording, which is what I do if I can't find a published version, and what I need for my own use is a lead sheet, not an exact transcription of a recording.

[ragman1]

C7+b9 = C E G# Bb D

C7+b9 = C E G# Bb Db.

As for Gershwin, if you prefer his original version, that's fine, but really things have moved on a little since then.

that's not the song, that's somebody's idea of one way to play it.

Yes, well, that's the whole point of jazz evolution, isn't it?

[Laurence Finston]

Sure, but I'm interested in my own ideas or the ideas of people I'd be playing with. I want to know what the original harmonies were, not somebody else's alterations. That's just my personal preference. If anyone else wants to learn an arrangement by someone else, or wants to know what alterations McCoy Tyner played or Bill Evans or whoever, there is nothing wrong with that.

I think if someone is concerned about finding a voicing (chord form) for a C7+b9, then I think it's worth pointing out that it is not the harmony from the original song. I would also suggest that it might not be suitable for playing on the guitar. If they chose to ignore that, that would also be fine.

Yes, we have moved on since 1937, when George Gershwin died. I never play his arrangements. I may have played one or two of them. Even if it's Gershwin, I'd rather do what I always do, namely improvise an accompaniment and play the melody straight, or vary it, or solo over the changes. If I want to substitute chords or alter them, then I do that. However, that's another story.

[Laurence Finston]

C7+b9 = C E G# Bb Db.

Thank you, corrected (see above). I got your original version in the mail and I appreciate the edit.

[ragman1]

I'm not actually sure what you're saying. On the one hand you imply respecting the original changes:

I will point out these changes have nothing to do with the published sheet music, which I have in front of me, and even less to do with George Gershwin's own arrangement for solo piano, which I also have in front of me

On the other hand you're saying change them any way you like. Which people have done, of course.

If I want to substitute chords or alter them, then I do that.

Which is it?

[Laurence Finston]

Both. I want to know what the original is and use it as the basis for improvisation, or an arrangement or whatever. I'm not disputing the legitimacy of anyone else's arrangements, I just want to use a reliable text as my basis.