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But what makes you think that others' arrangements aren't based on an original version? Unless we're talking about inventing a completely new song, of course there's a relationship with the original version.
I mean, the tune's the tune, not something random. They haven't just plucked their alterations from the air; the tune is the tune.
There's also the point that many original versions have been vastly improved by other, perhaps better, players. Would you allow for that? Not every relative change to an original is a retrograde step, musically speaking.
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01-03-2023 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ragman1
I mean, the tune's the tune, not something random. They haven't just plucked their alterations from the air; the tune is the tune.
There's also the point that many original versions have been vastly improved by other, perhaps better, players. Would you allow for that?
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Then that is your MO. So be it :-)
So, as a matter of interest, what changes would you use for 'S Wonderful, as we're here? I'd be happy to try them.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
As far as learning the song, I am not needing a lead sheet. I learned the melody from listening to Doris Day. (the straighter the singer the better for this purpose)
The basic chords seem pretty obvious, so I've made a chart and will tinker with it to suit my approach and abilities.
I hope we hear some more musical contributions!
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by Laurence Finston
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alpop -
Thank you for your compliments. Hope the tune goes well for you.
I hope we hear some more musical contributions!
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My take on the basic harmony:
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Originally Posted by Laurence Finston
The chord symbols are explained on the second page of this document: Songlist/public_domain_1.pdf at main * lfinston/Songlist * GitHub
I played through it once and didn't notice any mistakes. If anyone finds any, please let me know.
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alpop -
Looks okay to me. Especially the F#m7b5 before the bridge but F#m afterwards. That was clever, sort of made a better transition harmonically.
TART UP TO SUIT
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Laurence -
I've got the lead sheet.
Eb/ Eb6/Bb - % - C7/E/Bbo - %Fm9/Bb13 - % - Eb/ Eb6/Bb - %
repeat to Eb/ Eb6/Bb - Eb6/Am7b5
G/D - D7/C - G/B - D7G7/D - C7 - F7 - Bb7/Bb7b9
Eb/ Eb6/Bb - % - Cm/F9 - Cm/FFm7/Eo Fm7 - Fm7/Bb7 - EbM7/Ab6 - (EbM7/Bb7/C Bb7)
last: Eb/AbM7 - Eb
I can sense the 'original' feeling already! I'll try them out, thanks.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Here we go. These are your chords precisely, all the right bass notes, etc. I am not a piano so it's not like that. Vague sort of stride feel maybe. No frills melody, per the sheet.
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But the question is what do I think of it? So I did it again with the changes that I used before...
And the answer is... I prefer yours!
Make of that what you will :-)
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I almost never pay any attention to the bass notes that they put under the chords. They are an artifact of the particular arrangement which was done by some employee at the publisher's. George Gershwin was never in the same room with this arrangement. The only time they have some signficance is when you have a descending bass line that's very characteristic of a song or something like that. More sophisticated composers, like Vernon Duke, did these kinds of things. I can't think of any specific examples at the moment.
I only write them in for the sake of completeness: you can be sure that my lead sheets reflect the original sources. The only change I made was that I turned the stems on most of the Bb notes upside-down because there was more space below than above.
I think alterations are most effective when used sparingly, but I have no hesitation in making changes. I don't usually play things exactly the same way twice and almost never write things down for myself, if I'm working out an arrangement, only if it's for other people. So please feel free to vary anything. But this way, one at least knows what was in the original published version.
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By the way, these arrangements don't account for jazz eighth-notes or swing rhythm in general. If you see a dotted quarter-note followed by an eighth-note or a dotted eighth-note followed by a sixteenth note, don't take them too seriously. These songs were meant to be played using swing. In the 1920s and '30s, not as exaggerated as later on but present at all times.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
If I have any purpose in posting to this forum (not being a jazz musician), it's to try to encourage a little more respect for and interest in the original music that people call "jazz standards". They're not just "heads" to be noodled off as a kind of obligatory chore before you get to the solos, but little works of art in their own right.
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Originally Posted by alpop
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Originally Posted by Laurence Finston
You sometimes find strange notations in the chords. In most cases, for older music, they were added later, not always competently. When they were first published in the '20s or '30s, it was without chord symbols. Occasionally, the arrangement is from the vocal score and they never have chord symbols, so in those cases they've always been added later. This is very often the case for German popular music and not very often for American, except in the special case of Bernstein.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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Originally Posted by Laurence Finston
I have to say I'm not sure what the object of all this is. We aren't in 1927 now, things have moved on - which, of course is good otherwise we'd still be living in a bygone era. Musically, of course, as you say, those early compositions were beautifully crafted and their quality is rarely matched today.
However, I've listened to a dozen instrumental versions of this tune by well known artists (Brubeck, Grusin, Coleman, Pepper, Sims, Harris, Shaw, Gillespie, Peterson, etc, etc) and they all use a two-bar diminished chord. That's become the method now which, presumably, is why it's on most lead sheets today. If you, as a non-jazz musician, would say they're just rather naughtily overriding Gershwin's original changes then I don't know. But I doubt if that's what's going on.
So, personally, I don't really care as long as it sounds right in performance. I know you'll say that you don't mind altering the harmonies, you prefer altering the original version rather than follow what all the players - who are jazz musicians - are doing. My answer to that is that if you can come up with a beautiful arrangement that trumps all those players' versions then that would be something.
I'm not belittling your work, Laurence, I can see it's a labour of love for you, it's meticulously done, but I have to wonder where it's going.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
There is a descending line from D to B at one point.
I have to say I'm not sure what the object of all this is. We aren't in 1927 now, things have moved on. Which, of course is good otherwise we;d still be living in a bygone era. Musically, of course, as you say, compositions were beautifully crafted and their quality is rarely matched today.
It is legal to publish the ones in the public domain. I do this in case anyone finds them useful. Somebody might, because I see that people view the pages. I don't see who they are, but I do see that, say, 29 people from jazzguitar.be visited the Git repository this week. I doubt that many people find them useful or someone would have said so, but they're there in case anyone ever does. It doesn't cost me anything.
If you, as a non-jazz musician, want to say they're merely arrogantly or ignorantly overriding Gershwin's original changes then I don't know. But I doubt if that's what's going on.
So, personally, I don't really care as long as it sounds right in performance. I know you'll say that you don't mind altering the harmonies but you prefer altering the original version rather than follow what all the players - who are jazz musicians - are doing.
My answer to that is that if you can come up with a beautiful arrangement that trumps all those players' versions then that would be something.
I'm not belittling your work, Laurence, I can see it's a labour of love for you, it's meticulously done, but I have to wonder where it's going.
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Anyway, I rather like alpop's version in C with simple chords. Just my kind of thing :-)
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by Laurence Finston
'I know you'll say that you don't mind altering the harmonies but you prefer altering the original version rather than follow what all the players - who are jazz musicians - are doing'.
This isn't something that would even occur to me.
I want to know what the original is and use it as the basis for improvisation, or an arrangement or whatever.
I almost never pay any attention to the bass notes that they put under the chords. They are an artifact of the particular arrangement which was done by some employee at the publisher's. George Gershwin was never in the same room with this arrangement.
So it's probably far safer to get a public domain manuscript from somewhere like the local library than rely on yours that you don't give proper attention to anyway. Right...
Thanks for the discussion, Laurence, but I think I'll leave you to it :-)
Julian Lage Trio, Amsterdam, April 17 2024
Today, 02:19 AM in The Players