Some Day My Prince Harmonic Analysis

[jhas]

Hello,

I'm analyzing this standard and I have some questions:

The second ending. Fm7 - Bb7 - Ebmaj7. Is a standard II-V-I progression, but in Fm7 bar the melody have a E natural note, so this note implies the use of a Fm melodic minor scale? and if yes, the Bb7 implies a lydian b7? four mode of melodic minor.

Thanks.

[bako]

While you can certainly use melodic minor if you want, I would say that the E natural is more of a lower chromatic neighbor tone to F and not a melodic statement of FmMa7 or Bb7#11.

[ragman1]

The E natural doesn't matter, it's just a passing note. It adds colour, it's not integral to the basic harmony.

The melody for that second ending is diatonic, no strange notes or chords. The progression is quite straightforward.

For clarity's sake put it in C:

Gm7 - C7 - F - F#o
C - Dm7/G7 - C - %

That's a very common progression, no probs at all.

Just play over it what you think is right. I don't know how you do it, with scales, tonal centres, arpeggios? Just do it normally. It's too easy to worry about.

[jhas]

The E natural doesn't matter, it's just a passing note. It adds colour, it's not integral to the basic harmony.

The melody for that second ending is diatonic, no strange notes or chords. The progression is quite straightforward.

For clarity's sake put it in C:

Gm7 - C7 - F - F#o
C - Dm7/G7 - C - %

That's a very common progression, no probs at all.

Just play over it what you think is right. I don't know how you do it, with scales, tonal centres, arpeggios? Just do it normally. It's too easy to worry about.

So, it's a standard II-V-I no?? this E natural note confused me...

When I play I think with the triads, the other missing scales notes I fill with notes from the key. This bring me all the necessary scales without think to much. It's not the case on symmetrical scales and other exotic stuff.

[RunningBeagle]

Hello,

I'm analyzing this standard and I have some questions:

The second ending. Fm7 - Bb7 - Ebmaj7. Is a standard II-V-I progression, but in Fm7 bar the melody have a E natural note, so this note implies the use of a Fm melodic minor scale? and if yes, the Bb7 implies a lydian b7? four mode of melodic minor.

Thanks.

It's a melodic embellishment. For that bar you should just be thinking about an applied II-V to Eb. Melodic minor and Lydian b7 are flat out wrong there. Generally you're thinking Lydian b7 for 7#11 chords which tend to function as static dominants (where you don't want to constantly be clashing with the 3rd) or tritone substitutions (where Lydian b7 / Mixo #11 are enharmonic w/ the altered scale of the original dominant). Including the #11 but NOT the b13, b9, or #9 sounds "off" in a standard V-I cadence.

[ragman1]

So, it's a standard II-V-I no?? this E natural note confused me...

Yes, it's only a passing note.

When I play I think with the triads, the other missing scales notes I fill with notes from the key. This bring me all the necessary scales without think to much. It's not the case on symmetrical scales and other exotic stuff.

Understood. You know, you don't have to sound like Coltrane (have you heard what he does!) or Julian Lage and all those super-whizz players. Just getting round it is good enough.

A lot of the chords on lead sheets are altered to accommodate the melody. Simplify them when soloing. Here's what I did on the solo here. It's not hard really. You don't need to fit a ton of notes in, especially with this tune.

BbM7: just a couple of notes will do.
D7+: I just played a couple of notes from D7.

G7b9 - Cm: The G7 is going to a minor so put in the b9 note. So it's G7 plus the Ab and then resolve to the Cm.
G7b9 - C7: The G7 is repeated but it goes to C7. Again, just outline it.
F7: You can outline the F7 but I just played a Cm (which is the ii of F7). It's easier to go from C7 to Cm.

Dm - C#o: Just play the Dm and arpeggiate the dim chord (it can be G or Bb dim too - same notes - and those two are nearer than an actual C#o).
Cm7 - F7: Just keep playing the Cm because it's the ii of F7 and you get the nice extensions (G and D).

Dm7 - Dbo: Same again. Dbo is the same as C#o so use G or Bb dim.
Cm - F7: I played the Cm and then moved it up a m3rd to get a b9 sound over the F7. It's an old pro trick. So that would be Cm - Ebm.

First section again, played slightly differently, of course.

Fm7 - Bb7 - Eb - Eo: That's just a 2-5-1 in Eb plus the dim chord. So you could play Fm, then up a m3rd to Abm, resolving down to Gm (which sounds like an EbM7). Then again the Eo is also G or Bb dim. It's right there where your fingers are.

Bb/F - Cm7/F7 - Bb - %: Keep it simple, just play the Bb and then put in an 'end phrase' to bring you home.

That's how I did it. You honestly don't need all the micro-analysis, it just makes it far more awful than it really is. Start slow, keep it simple, and all will be well

[Christian Miller]

IV #IVo7 I/V

is a very common chord progression

There’s a few ways you can handle the #IVo7 but descending from the b5 of the blues scale is often overlooked and very simply effective

[RunningBeagle]

IV #IVo7 I/V

is a very common chord progression

There’s a few ways you can handle the #IVo7 but descending from the b5 of the blues scale is often overlooked and very simply effective

Agree. The symmetry of the diminished scale always threw me as I tend to view things from a very functional lens. Symmetrical patterns felt like an entirely different "space." Relating the harmony to stuff you already know and have context for goes a long way if this is you.

To your point, b5, 4, b3, 1 [relative to the home key] is something we can all relate to. Add in 2 and 6 and you're in bluesy major pentatonic territory which is also quite familiar. Then you have a couple "leading tones" - #5 or b6 (leading tone to 6) and 7 (leading tone to 1). Realize you have the option of playing major triads rooted on b6 and 7 and you have a pretty comprehensive "framework" for dealing with the #IV diminished and bIII diminished, which in my mind are the same thing.

That is all 8 notes of the diminished scale, in familiar context, with a couple triad tricks you can play with.

The next step is figuring out what are the best sounding pathways from certain of these tones to what follows, whether that's a I chord, III- chord, or II- chord.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, the dim scale works well here, although it’s not my preferred choice for all dim chords.

it does work well to play lower neighbour tones on the dim arpeggio. You can hear bill evans doing this on his version of Oleo for instance

Another nice sub which I suppose you could regard as arising from the dim scale is using VII(7).

Tbh the more I learn and develop as a player the simpler I tend to treat these things. A couple of notes is usually enough to nail the change, it’s good to listen to how Bird deals with these things. b3 and then down the scale (I major) is a very simple but effective choice.

the thing to emphasise for the op is this progression is extremely common. It comes up in common versions of the blues and rhythm changes as well as hundreds of standards. It’s a good thing to practice a lot.