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My lord, this is like trying to buy a pair of shoes for someone... except you don't know what size they take!
Originally Posted by scout
I haven't got to the point where I'm actually trying to sing it yet
Scout... look, sorry, but you can't just 'pick a version' to sing with. You have to find the right pitch for your voice and then sort out a version that fits that. It depends on how high or low your voice is, doesn't it?
A lot of versions here are in C. The highest note in C is the top E, repeated frequently. Can you reach that happily? That's why Willie does it in G!
It's easy enough to put the chords of one version into another key, at least on paper, but it doesn't follow that they'll work in practice. It depends how they'll sound behind your voice because of the fingering.
So start with the singing. Just do what comes naturally and you'll find the right key for you easily enough. Then fit the chords to that, bearing in mind they might need some adjustment.
And, again, accompanying chords are not the same as solo instrumental chords. Apparently most of the guys here think you want to play an instrumental!
We should start again, really :-)
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09-10-2022 06:02 AM
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Very sensitive, creative playing, Jeff! Your personal voice is heard in every note. 10 stars!!! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
MarineroLast edited by Marinero; 09-10-2022 at 08:21 AM. Reason: punctuation
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I see some of your video is censored, Vladan. Most wise :-)
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Shoe size is a 9 mate
Sorry for the grief and frustration I have imposed on you, my fellow guitar lover...I'll just have to plead an ignorance of theory and inexperience with singing and playing at the same time,especially with songs a fair distance from I-IV-V.
After a bit of note searching today,I believe that the key for me is C,as I can reach the top E comfortably.It's good to establish that.
However,It's a pretty difficult song,Guitar-wise and vocal-wise and I think it's a bit beyond me at this stage,unless I can come up with a simpler version than the one in 557 Jazz Standards ... in the key of C.
As our man Dirty Harry says at the end of Magnum Force "A man's got to know his limitations"
I think I'll put this one in the too hard basket for a while ...
Cheers Ragman and those who have offered help.
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Try googling ‘stardust lead sheet in c’, there are some simple versions available from online sheet music retailers.
There’s a free one on the musescore site, although it looks like you’d have to sign up for a free trial period to get it.
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The real book has a fairly simple version in C, but it leaves out the initial section (verse), only the 557 Standards had that as I recall.
Anyway here’s the realbook one:
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Well, I don't think you should give up just yet. Mind you, you have chosen quite a hard tune... but all is not lost. Originally Posted by scout
Shoe size is a 9 mate
Sorry for the grief and frustration I have imposed on you, my fellow guitar lover...I'll just have to plead an ignorance of theory and inexperience with singing and playing at the same time,especially with songs a fair distance from I-IV-V.
After a bit of note searching today,I believe that the key for me is C,as I can reach the top E comfortably.It's good to establish that.
However,It's a pretty difficult song,Guitar-wise and vocal-wise and I think it's a bit beyond me at this stage,unless I can come up with a simpler version than the one in 557 Jazz Standards ... in the key of C.
As our man Dirty Harry says at the end of Magnum Force "A man's got to know his limitations"
I think I'll put this one in the too hard basket for a while ...
Cheers Ragman and those who have offered help.
I have to say I'm not too sure about this!
However, if you can sing it, you may as well have this.inexperience with singing and playing at the same time,especially with songs a fair distance from I-IV-V.
The chords can easily be simplified:
Intro:
C - F7 - E+ - A7
Dm/G7 - C/Am - B7 - Dm/G7
C - F7 - E+ - A7
Dm/G7 - Em/Am - Dm/G7 - C/E+
Verses:
F - % - Fm - Bb7
C/Dm - Em/A7 - Dm//A7 - Dm
G7/Go - G7 - C - %
D7 - % - G7 - G7//C7
F - % - Fm - Bb7
C/Dm - Em/A7 - Dm//A7 - Dm
F - Fm - C - B7/E7
F/A7 - D7/G7 - C - (C//C7)
And if you want to know what it sounds like, here it is.
Maybe you'll get it one day and you can jazz up the chords a bit, But for singing probably no one cares.
Good luck, that's me done. This'll teach you to ask questions on a jazz thread! Nothing is simple here
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PS. E+ is E augmented:
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Well thank you! I do really like it in G. Originally Posted by Marinero
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Thank you once again Ragman.... I'll stick with it and give it another try.I'm good with all those chords.
Re the I-IV-V thing, I meant the blues/country etc. progression ..
The demo you made is fantastic and will be super helpful.
You're a patient and helpful man.. cheers mate
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Thank you Graham,
As I told Ragman,I've decided to have another crack at Stardust ..leaving out the verse at this stage of learning might be a good idea..
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Yes, I know :-) Originally Posted by scout
I think you mean the intro. The verses are the main body of the tune.leaving out the verse
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One day.I'll get all this terminology right
. we live in hope mate ..
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I think he got it right. The verses are mostly not played in jazz for songs from the “Great American Songbook”. See the Real Book version posted by grahambop. That is the chorus. There is “verse” and “chorus” written as well above the staves of original sheet music. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Oh, okay :-) Originally Posted by Bop Head
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What is maybe misleading is that the chorus of such a song is 32 bars long usually, much longer than the refrain (called chorus also) of let’s say a Beatles or Stones song. Originally Posted by ragman1
EDIT: Sudden inspiration
: That explains as well why improvising through the changes once is called “playing a chorus”. Which is applied then to blues as well where one chorus is 12 bars like in “Paul Gonsalves playing 27 blues choruses at Newport lead to the revival of Duke Ellington’s career”.
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Yes when we play e.g. 32 bar AABA tunes (or whatever the song form is), in jazz terms we call the repeating 32 bar structures (or whatever the song’s form is) ‘choruses’.
But a lot of the old standards originally had an intro section at the beginning, often sung out of tempo, this was usually used to ‘set the scene’ in a Broadway show etc. (at least that’s my understanding). This intro was called the verse, but you don’t often see them in fakebooks because instrumental versions usually omit them.
However singers sometimes like to use them, and some tunes (e.g. Stardust, and Spring Can Really Hang You Up The Most, 2 of my favourites) have great verses that also sound good instrumentally, so it’s worth being aware of the fact.
Ella Fitzgerald often used to include the verse, her recordings can be a good source for hearing them.
Took me years to discover all this, it’s not really explained anywhere when you start out!
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There's a bit I lke in the Newport vid where Duke is wondering if he's getting a blister on his thumb. At least, that's my joke on it :-)
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Another verse that’s often sung (and sometimes also played by jazzers as intro) is the one from “Night And Day” (Cole Porter): Originally Posted by grahambop
“Like the beat, beat, beat of the tom-tom / When the jungle shadows fall / Like the tick, tick, tock of the stately clock / As it stands again the wall …”
The chorus later starts with “Night and day / you are the one …”
She did a whole row of songbook albums which are a good source for learning tunes: Originally Posted by grahambop
- Ella Sings Gershwin (Decca 1950)
- Ella Fitzgerald Sings the Cole Porter Song Book (Verve 1956)
- Ella Fitzgerald Sings the Rodgers & Hart Song Book (Verve 1956)
- Ella Fitzgerald Sings the Duke Ellington Song Book (Verve 1957)
- Ella Fitzgerald Sings the Irving Berlin Song Book (Verve 1958)
- Ella Fitzgerald Sings the George and Ira Gershwin Song Book (Verve 1959)
- Ella Fitzgerald Sings the Harold Arlen Songbook (Verve 1961)
- Ella Fitzgerald Sings the Jerome Kern Song Book (Verve 1963)
- Ella Fitzgerald Sings the Johnny Mercer Song Book (Verve 1964)
- Ella Abraça Jobim: Ella Fitzgerald Sings the Antonio Carlos Jobim Song Book (Pablo 1981)
- Nice Work If You Can Get It: Ella Fitzgerald and André Previn Do Gershwin (Pablo 1983)
Those cover the most important composers of the Great American Songbook (except for Hoagy Carmichael, but plus one fundamental composer from Brazil). Most of those are also on Spotify and if you listen to those repeatedly over and over again you get a good base for a jazz repertoire.
Except here LOL Originally Posted by grahambop
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Yes, I blurred them. From the beginning they felt a bit awkward, but recently they also ceased to serve their original pourpose. I started shooting those as per request of a nostalgic friend living abroad, longing for Serbian women. He finally managed to persuade one to move to his gloomy place. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Yes!He finally managed to persuade one to move to his gloomy place.
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Dear Charlie,
There's a nice simple arrangement of the chorus in this book with chord diagrams. The suggested chords work well.
I've also embedded a link "Stardust" to a chord-melody arrangement on this forum. There are others here too.
I bought sheet music from an online place called 'musicnotes' for the verse - only a few bucks.
Good luck!
Stardust
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Thanks for your response and interest Chas.
I've realised my limitations as a player and have put Stardust in the 'too hard basket' for the moment
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I'm living with Fly me to the Moon and going OK with it . much more straight-forward.
Cheers mate ... best wishes from OZ ... Charlie.
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And here is the arrangement from the book I mentioned.
Originally Posted by chasranney
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