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  1. #1

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    Hi folks ... I swear I had more than 15 posts,...I used to haunt this place

    Are some "real books" - sold legally these days - known to be wrong ?
    The song in question now is Night Dreamer, by Wayne Shorter. The guys working on this tune have a chart that's different from the version in my book. The second half of bar I: I show an F-7 ; they have a Bb7. Reconcile the differences, I can have a Bb9sus, or an F-6 (with the D melody note) ..forget the Bb for now. The question: is my book trying to show me something useful, am I missing something, or is it just a lying pack of paper ??

    I have 3 Real books, by different publishers and being the hack I am I have to rely on these things.

    Thanks for any insite
    -Mike

    Edit: it's not a #11, it's a sus4
    Last edited by mjo; 02-19-2021 at 06:53 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    All Real Books are known to be wrong, but the ones from Sher are less wrong than their predecessors.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjo
    Hi folks ... I swear I had more than 15 posts,...I used to haunt this place

    Are some "real books" - sold legally these days - known to be wrong ?
    The song in question now is Night Dreamer, by Wayne Shorter. The guys working on this tune have a chart that's different from the version in my book. The second half of bar I: I show an F-7 ; they have a Bb7. Reconcile the differences, I can have a Bb9sus, or an F-6 (with the D melody note) ..forget the Bb for now. The question: is my book trying to show me something useful, am I missing something, or is it just a lying pack of paper ??

    I have 3 Real books, by different publishers and being the hack I am I have to rely on these things.

    Thanks for any insite
    -Mike

    Edit: it's not a #11, it's a sus4
    Since Fm7 Bb7 is in fact a ii V progression, there is no contradiction. Many tunes might list a Bb7 which jazz players know you can always precede with an Fm7 or even a B7alt of some kind. Some charts insert more passing chords than others.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjo
    Hi folks ... I swear I had more than 15 posts,...I used to haunt this place

    Are some "real books" - sold legally these days - known to be wrong ?
    The song in question now is Night Dreamer, by Wayne Shorter. The guys working on this tune have a chart that's different from the version in my book. The second half of bar I: I show an F-7 ; they have a Bb7. Reconcile the differences, I can have a Bb9sus, or an F-6 (with the D melody note) ..forget the Bb for now. The question: is my book trying to show me something useful, am I missing something, or is it just a lying pack of paper ??

    I have 3 Real books, by different publishers and being the hack I am I have to rely on these things.
    I wouldn't view them as "right or wrong"; instead they offer chords that are harmonically "correct" (well mostly), but may not be the best sounding ones, the ones the composer used, or the ones a professional jazz musician would use.

    I always try to find 3 or more other sources (which today with the web is fairly easy): Pick up my guitar, experiment and find what sounds best to me.

  6. #5

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    Here's two good posts about the changes for E.S.P. and Footprints, and how difficult it is for a student to look at all the available sources and determine what's "right".

    There's Wayne's original charts (which he supposedly provided to publishers like Chuck Sher and Jamie Aebersold, in the 1970s and 1980s), then there's the harmonies Herbie or McCoy decided to play based on the charts, and there are later interpretations by Wayne and by the rest of the jazz world, and of course bootleg and legal Real Book versions which we all take with a grain of salt.

    Peter Spitzer Music Blog: "E.S.P." (Wayne Shorter)

    Peter Spitzer Music Blog: Those "Footprints" Changes

  7. #6

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    If it sounds right....

  8. #7

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    Use Real Books like recipes; a suggestion of this and that.

  9. #8

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    Thanks for the responses guys, I appreciate it !
    After working on this more, after I started this thread .. yes, it works -lol. A melody note a half step away from a chord tone ? ..try it first.
    Right and wrong is not, necessarily the way to see these things. Works or doesn't work is a better place to start .. and even that's subjective.

    I remember reading that Cole Porter was not happy with what the jazz guys did with his tunes, some of those are in my books

    ...does someone, new to jazz read some of this stuff and decide: " you guys are nuts, FREE BIRD! "
    Cheers,
    Mike

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjo

    ...does someone, new to jazz read some of this stuff and decide: " you guys are nuts, FREE BIRD! "
    Au contraire, Bird lives!

  11. #10

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    Real Books have many mistakes. Perhaps there are too many songs in them.
    You can always check with the original recording.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjo
    Hi folks ... I swear I had more than 15 posts,...I used to haunt this place

    Are some "real books" - sold legally these days - known to be wrong ?
    The song in question now is Night Dreamer, by Wayne Shorter. The guys working on this tune have a chart that's different from the version in my book. The second half of bar I: I show an F-7 ; they have a Bb7. Reconcile the differences, I can have a Bb9sus, or an F-6 (with the D melody note) ..forget the Bb for now. The question: is my book trying to show me something useful, am I missing something, or is it just a lying pack of paper ??

    I have 3 Real books, by different publishers and being the hack I am I have to rely on these things.

    Thanks for any insite
    -Mike

    Edit: it's not a #11, it's a sus4
    My old (illegal) Real Book has this as a |Gmaj7 Bb7| Ebmaj7 D7|. The version I have in my iReal Pro app has it as an F- . I think the progression on the head is neither and is really |Gmaj7 | D7 |, with the G7 really just being a maj 7 for the first beat or so and then shifting to more of a dom7 color. The bass is G F Bb Eb D. Piano plays CDG over G on that second chord. Exactly how that Bb note is functioning is open to interpretation. It could be a 1 of Bb or 5 of Eb, or sub of either G7 or D7. Anyway, the whole progression just feels like motion between G and D to me. The soloists are mostly playing G min pentatonics and blues over the vamp, which reinforces that (at least to me). This is one one of those tunes where standard chord notation kind of bumps up against its limitations.

    I'm sure somebody with better ears and grasp of theory than I will refute this, but for now, this is how I'm rolling.

    John

  13. #12

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    Next up--what key is Autumn Leaves in??

    Ahem.

    Round Midnight has gone through a lot of changes in the Real Book since first appearing in print 40 years ago. I prefer the "old" chord changes and can't force myself to play it any other way. Lush Life also comes to mind as one with quite a few differences.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjo
    Are some "real books" - sold legally these days - known to be wrong ?
    All of them...

    It's about the movement of the bass line....

    Realbook V6 and New Realbook think it should be Fm7, Realbook V5 has a Bb7.

    Leaving aside that Bb7 and Fm7 are practically the same chord (one note difference), I think this is about the bass line. Obviously the descending line G-- F--Eb--D is meant.

    So you could easily write Gmaj Bb7/F Ebmaj D7 as well.

    But in the end Realbooks are only a hint, a direction, the decision has to be made by the ear and the musician himself.

    BTW. Wayne is quite active on Facebook, just write him an email and ask him yourself.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjo
    Hi folks ... I swear I had more than 15 posts,...I used to haunt this place

    Are some "real books" - sold legally these days - known to be wrong ?
    The song in question now is Night Dreamer, by Wayne Shorter. The guys working on this tune have a chart that's different from the version in my book. The second half of bar I: I show an F-7 ; they have a Bb7. Reconcile the differences, I can have a Bb9sus, or an F-6 (with the D melody note) ..forget the Bb for now. The question: is my book trying to show me something useful, am I missing something, or is it just a lying pack of paper ??

    I have 3 Real books, by different publishers and being the hack I am I have to rely on these things.

    Thanks for any insite
    -Mike

    Edit: it's not a #11, it's a sus4
    Hi Mike

    Just because we are using a chart does not mean its right lol.

    So, I'm not sure what edition of the RB you are using. The most recent editions seem to clean up the majority if not all of the errors in the original RB, which were all contained in a lengthy erata at the beginning of the 5th edition that absolutely no one ever looked at.

    (The joke is even with all the hilarious mistakes, the original RB was still a massive advance on the previous fake books. They must have been truly dire. Now things have vastly improved.)

    So, I haven't looked at the new edition's chart for Night Dreamer, but if this is from 6th edition, I would imagine it to be more accurate.

    Even very talented (legendary) Berklee students of the 1970's (who wrote the RB) frequently misidentified chords. But TBF Fm7 and Bb7 are not sooooo far away, and you'd normally expect a Bb7 going to Ebmaj7. From experience I know it's all too easy to hear what we expect not what's actually there.

    Secondly, the chord symbols do not necessarily reflect the very clear G-F-Eb-D 'hit the road jack) bass line played under the chords.

    So how do we decide if it's Fm7 or Fm6 or Bb7/F or something? Well, I would listen out for an Eb (Fm7) or D (Bb7) in the chord. It's easier to hear one note right?

    *Listens*
    I hear a clear Eb. Therefore I think the second chord of bar 1 is an Fm7.

  16. #15

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    Next subject - the Omnibook is full of mistakes too! :-)

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by mjo
    Hi folks ... I swear I had more than 15 posts,...I used to haunt this place

    Are some "real books" - sold legally these days - known to be wrong?

    The song in question now is Night Dreamer, by Wayne Shorter. The guys working on this tune have a chart that's different from the version in my book. The second half of bar I: I show an F-7 ; they have a Bb7. Reconcile the differences, I can have a Bb9sus, or an F-6 (with the D melody note) ..forget the Bb for now. The question: is my book trying to show me something useful, am I missing something, or is it just a lying pack of paper ??

    I have 3 Real books, by different publishers and being the hack I am I have to rely on these things.

    Thanks for any insite
    -Mike

    Edit: it's not a #11, it's a sus4
    yes but can still be useful in conjunction with listening and transcribing. Plus as someone once said, probably "Reading about music is like dancing about architecture".