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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    I will debate no one. Let me PLAY my opinions. And let me hear what the other guy/gal sounds like.

    Anything else is 'chin music'...
    Yeah .. Those who can play and those who can't talk

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "I dunno .... We've all been doing circled debating jazz this month in several threads and end if day I'm amazed how stale and conservative this forum is." Lobomov


    Hi, L,
    I think debating Jazz is one of the strengths of this Forum. For some of us, serious communication about Art is non-existent among our circles of acquaintances. This is certainly my dilemma and until we return to performing again where occasionally you'll be approached by a fellow musician, we remain in spiritual isolation. In regards to the term "conservative," it is not necessarily a pejorative term. The Cambridge Dictionary defines conservative as: "
    tending to emphasize the importance of preserving traditional cultural and religious values, and to oppose change, esp. sudden change." In regards to Art and in this case Music, the preservation of cultural values is a main ingredient to variety and depth of an Art. For example, why would a musician today want to study/play Bach, Beethoven, or Schumann? Why would a visual artist want to learn the techniques of Vermeer, Michelangelo, Gauguin, or a writer to study the techniques of Shakespeare, Joseph Conrad, or Hemingway? Because, within a "tradition" is a wealth and depth of human experience/Art at the highest level. Should we discard this greatness because it is not "new, fresh or deemed conservative" by contemporary values?
    Finally, in regards to Elinora Strino, there have been some respondents who have suggested/implied/inferred that she is a polished artist, a new phenom, etc. and nothing could be further from the truth. She is typical of many university educated musicians who have good technique and knowledge of the idiom but are beginning their journey at the bottom. When she plays, IMO, she has no concept other than technique as her music has no real direction and for me, feels pre-programmed. It's a show and especially at the end of one of her pieces she plays/fingers a hammer-on note with her right hand followed by a coy smile--pure bogus showmanship. So, let's not pretend she's the next great Jazz Artist of the future as were Miles and Chet . . . and, as I said in a previous comment, I'd like to hear her in 10 years if she's still playing and continues to develop. So, when we use someone as an example on this Forum, do we only accept praise? Or, can we provide serious, critical opinions that look deeper into a musician and musicianship from a personal perspective even if it clashes with the mainstream? Play live . . . Marinero

    P.S. I've never known or played with a savant. However, I've played with some good/great musicians who have developed their skills over a lifetime of playing. Artist or Music Machine? It's your call. M
    I was that respondent, yea. I understand that Elinora Strino feels pre-programmed and no real direction to you. Fair enough. But have you considered that maybe it's your ears that could use some polish? I mean, it's an honest question we should ask ourselves from time to time, right?
    And if a 'coy' smile (if I can add- of a pretty lady no less) makes you angry....? Listen to one great Louis Jordan, it's tongue in cheek, but marvelous song.


  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    That's a proper, healthy attitude. Adds weight to the opinion.
    I'd put it another way: It's the only opinion that HAS weight.

    Talk is cheap---we've all heard that, right?

    Let me use the example of the paper tiger in bully's clothing: B/c I'm small and don't take shit from anyone w/o the business end of a gun at my temple I hear, in Philly, (and thank the Lord I'll be outta this sad-ass burg by Spring) a lot of rightfully pissed-off black guys rail very angrily, and menacingly at me. But threatening ME not only is misdirected, (I have no POWER to right wrongs) it shows what cowards they are in the end. (Plus I never start any shit).

    'I'm a slap the shit outta you' (the 'infraction' is usually car-pedestrian related if not actual road rage). Musta heard it hundreds of times.

    But I stand right there and try not to laugh b/c they're fat-mouthing bullshitters. People who REALLY mean to do things act, don't talk.

    So I take many comments in chat rooms as chuckle fodder---especially when I hear some of these guys 'play'. If someone posits something thought-provoking in an articulate manner, sure I'll respond. But the $5 words of academia or idiotic Benson v Metheny drivel? Well, guess?...

  5. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Right ... Miles was 100% about the music and 0% about bogus showmanship ... Gotcha!





    Good point, Lobo!
    May I restate: early Miles.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  6. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    I was that respondent, yea. I understand that Elinora Strino feels pre-programmed and no real direction to you. Fair enough. But have you considered that maybe it's your ears that could use some polish? I mean, it's an honest question we should ask ourselves from time to time, right?
    And if a 'coy' smile (if I can add- of a pretty lady no less) makes you angry....? Listen to one great Louis Jordan, it's tongue in cheek, but marvelous song.


    Hi, Hep,
    I've had more polish in my ears than most after a lifetime of living/loving music. However, it would be fair to say that I have some stringent standards and real likes/dislikes. I have little free time and want to be moved by music . . . ergo, although I give many people a "listen," it usually doesn't make it past the opening melody for most newcomers. So, if I have an hour to listen to music, do I choose to listen to musicians that move me emotionally/spiritually, or . . . do I listen to a flurry of newcomers with short exits? However, that's how I found Birelli LaGrene, Yamandu Costa, Joey Alexander, Pavel Steidl, etc.
    In regards to attractive women, I'm a healthy, heterosexual male and love physically beautiful women especially if they are talented. My first wife and current are both very physically beautiful women and very talented visual artists(painters). However, if I judged them by their Art, their physical looks would not be a consideration. Thanks for your honest reply.
    Play live . . . Marinero

    P.S. Great video, Hep! You want to now why Jazz is terminal? Because people stopped dancing to Jazz when it went to the concert hall. Music was both Art and Entertainment. And, "Schtick" and novelty songs were part of the show. That's how they made the money. But, along with the "schtick" came some great Jazz music! M

  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Good point, Lobo!
    May I restate: early Miles.
    Play live . . . Marinero

    OK, so you're saying Miles ran out of art at some point and no longer could play, so he had to resort to showmanship for the last couple of decades of his career?

    I mean .. You can't both be a showman .. and an artist, can you?

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    OK, so you're saying Miles ran out of art at some point and no longer could play, so he had to resort to showmanship for the last couple of decades of his career?

    I mean .. You can't both be a showman .. and an artist, can you?
    That last question is a joke right? I hope so; most of life isn't based on silly binary questions.

    Life is based on a percentile distribution.

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    That last question is a joke right? I hope so; most of life isn't based on silly binary questions.

    Life is based on a percentile distribution.

    Joke'?


    It's just me exploring Marinero's convictions .. If he can judge Elenora Strino so harshly for doing a wee bit of showmanship in her performance then he has to state that the latter half of Miles career is utter shite as well

    Not to mention the back to the audience and other antics that he employed quite early on too

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Joke'?


    It's just me exploring Marinero's convictions .. If he can judge Elenora Strino so harshly for doing a wee bit of showmanship in her performance then he has to state that the latter half of Miles career is utter shite as well

    Not to mention the back to the audience and other antics that he employed quite early on too
    Ah, I understand now; Yes, some people's "convictions" are highly rooted in binary corners. A strawman is created for the opposing corner and this leads to overemphasis of where one stands (from both sides), as part of knee jerk reactions to overemphasis. See latest bebop high art thread (ha ha).

    Note that my percentile point was a point about degrees. When talking about showmanship and artist, I like using Elvis - Elvis had both (duh), and his early musical career focused more on the music. As his career went his live concerts became more about showmanship and less about music. I.e. the degree shifted too much to the showmanship side.

    As for Elenore Strino: I think she balances the two well in most cases (in some videos she may lean towards the showmanship side a little too much,,, but that is a very minor, and mostly empty, criticism).

  11. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    As for Elenore Strino: I think she balances the two well in most cases (in some videos she may lean towards the showmanship side a little too much,,, but that is a very minor, and mostly empty, criticism).

    I think artists are made by pundits once their time is up. Most of them are just enjoying themselves and trying to make a living .. A lot of them have a sense of humor too .. which the pundit rarely show

    Anyways .. übermench and grand artist Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart with his smash "Leck mir in Arsch" or as we would say Iick me in the ass


  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    The road to artistry is long and, for most, uncertain. However, there has been one litmus test for arrival: the ballad. The ballad brings together the entire array of a musician's skills and sensibilities. I have always believed that it is more difficult to play one note well than a flurry of notes in succession. Every note must count, every breath, every lingering and nuance. Here's the great ballad master talking about the ballad in the intro of his interview.
    Why don't you post a simple video to illustrate what you mean with notes played on your own instrument?
    Last edited by Peter C; 02-01-2021 at 09:23 PM.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, Hep,
    I've had more polish in my ears than most after a lifetime of living/loving music. However, it would be fair to say that I have some stringent standards and real likes/dislikes. I have little free time and want to be moved by music . . . ergo, although I give many people a "listen," it usually doesn't make it past the opening melody for most newcomers. So, if I have an hour to listen to music, do I choose to listen to musicians that move me emotionally/spiritually, or . . . do I listen to a flurry of newcomers with short exits? However, that's how I found Birelli LaGrene, Yamandu Costa, Joey Alexander, Pavel Steidl, etc.
    In regards to attractive women, I'm a healthy, heterosexual male and love physically beautiful women especially if they are talented. My first wife and current are both very physically beautiful women and very talented visual artists(painters). However, if I judged them by their Art, their physical looks would not be a consideration. Thanks for your honest reply.
    Play live . . . Marinero

    P.S. Great video, Hep! You want to now why Jazz is terminal? Because people stopped dancing to Jazz when it went to the concert hall. Music was both Art and Entertainment. And, "Schtick" and novelty songs were part of the show. That's how they made the money. But, along with the "schtick" came some great Jazz music! M
    Haha, stop right there. You're so so full of it no need further explanation. But it makes a fun read.

  14. #88

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    Back to ballads, this one by SW and Syreeta isn't as known as it ought to be. Right before the Motown breakaway and those 2 brilliant re-inventions (Music of my Mind; Talking Book) and the strings and reeds are tasteful, never obtrusive.

    I learned it to couple w/Never Dreamed You'd Leave in Summer for an upcoming recording. Analyzing it the transition to the bridge and the note choice getting back---genius).

    Oh hell, here are both:





    I love her lyrics, and was convinced she was the better of the 2. Then I kicked all pre-conceptions out of my narrowed mind and read the entire lyric leaflet to Songs in the Key of Life and finally got it. He DOES break 'rules' but is a born poet with much of importance to tell us---aside from the musical genius. He's a treasure (as was Syreeta, gone in 2006---RIP)...

  15. #89

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    ....And there's this live performance in tribute to Michael Jackson soon after his death---which makes it hard work hard not to cry: