The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51
    joelf Guest
    I've been taking the plunge into singing lately---sort of inevitable since it's always been about the songs for me. I mean THE SONGS, NOT Joe jazz player's interpretation---a fine way NOT to learn the melody and composer's changes.

    And ballads; medium swingers; and comic songs are what I can pull off best. I thought F and Eb were my keys, but I sound best on I've Got You Under My Skin; Street of Dreams; and Ev'ry Time We Say Goodbye in C. My own songs I wouldn't take a chance, say, demoing myself. There's too much at stake not to hire a real singer. But on low-key gigs...

    It's for me the superior way to internalize both the melodic contour and what the song's about. If you do that HW---and it doesn't HAVE to be by singing---I believe you then, and ONLY then, deserve as wide a berth as you desire. Go ahead and do what you hear, what the creative muse whispers in your ear. You know the song.

    The ballads I've been singing at home lately: Guess I'll Hang my Tears...; Wee Small Hours; A Time For Love---and some Stevie Wonder/Syreeta classics I'd never have the nerve to try in public: Seems So Long; Where Were You When I Needed You; Never Dreamed You'd Leave in Summer; Too Shy To Say; All is Fair in Love; Something Out of the Blue.

    (Then I hear Shirley Bassey or Barbra do them---and I REALLY get that I should play, not sing those in public).

    But as a learning tool and for sheer enjoyment I highly recommend singing...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52
    joelf Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Let's not ignore the new up and coming players. Some of them play ballads beautifully.

    W/o even listening to the vid; the fact that it says Bill Evans---like HE wrote it and not Legrand-Bergmans---shows a main thing wrong with jazz today, or at least what sticks in MY craw: insularity, and not giving a crap about composers. Songs tell us what to play---ALL the info is there, so respect those composers and lyricists---they worked their asses of on that material.

    Imagine where jazz would be if all the great ASB writers never were born (and Ellington; Strayhorn; and Waller belong in that canon to me)...

  4. #53
    Even for people with low quality singing voices its very important to Know The Lyrics to the Song so you will understand what its About!!!

  5. #54
    joelf Guest
    And sorry, but I didn't care for her performance either, though she can certainly play the instrument and has some good ideas. More about HER than the song, and her touch has a ways to go---slamming those chords and such.

    You have to play these songs for YEARS before even beginning to understand, let alone interpret, them.

    When I went to Holland the 1st time a roughly 20-year-old woman was one night singing Blame it on my Youth. Well, I applaud her good taste, but really? Silly me for thinking her youth was now, and what the hell is there to reflect about?

    All the songs about lost or misspent youth, a theme that hits me in the heart BTW, were written by people who had lived enough life to make sense writing about it. And George Bernard Shaw had it right, too.

    But the young are inspiring in other ways: they're often as yet untainted---free of dogma (like I'm not---LOL). I like the freshness many of them bring to bear. I learn from them concepts I might miss out on if I failed to listen...
    Last edited by joelf; 01-30-2021 at 12:31 PM.

  6. #55
    joelf Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by steve burchfield
    Even for people with low quality singing voices its very important to Know The Lyrics to the Song so you will understand what its About!!!
    Worked pretty good for a guy named Lester Young...

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    And sorry, but I didn't care for her performance either, though she can certainly play the instrument and has some good ideas. More about HER than the song, and her touch has a ways to go---slamming those chords and such.

    You have to play these songs for YEARS before even beginning to understand, let alone interpret, them.

    When I went to Holland the 1st time a roughly 20-year-old woman was one night singing Blame it on my Youth. Well, I applaud her good taste, but really? Silly me for thinking her youth was now, and what the hell is there to reflect about?

    All the songs about lost or misspent youth, a theme that hits me in the heart BTW, were written by people who had lived enough life to make sense writing about it. And George Bernard Shaw had it right, too.

    But the young are inspiring in other ways: they're often as yet untainted---free of dogma (like I'm not---LOL). I like the freshness many of them bring to bear. I learn from them concepts I might miss out on if I failed to listen...

    4 guys with college degrees and a singer that shows up with her Louis Vuitton bag and iphone 12 in order to sing old blues songs about hardship .. You're saying that something is wrong with that?

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    And sorry, but I didn't care for her performance either, though she can certainly play the instrument and has some good ideas. More about HER than the song, and her touch has a ways to go---slamming those chords and such.
    Umm, no, slamming those chords and such is the best thing about her playing, I dig it and I'd like to hear more guitarists play like that. I currently don't so I conclude it's many others on the scene have ways to go about their touch.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Let's not ignore the new up and coming players. Some of them play ballads beautifully.

    Pungent. Like a good cheese. That’s the way I like my solo guitar.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Pungent. Like a good cheese. That’s the way I like my solo guitar.
    Hi, C,
    I'm assuming you're referring to Limburger . . . I agree. Play live . . . Marinero

  11. #60
    joelf Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    4 guys with college degrees and a singer that shows up with her Louis Vuitton bag and iphone 12 in order to sing old blues songs about hardship .. You're saying that something is wrong with that?
    No clue to what you refer.

    I said---and meant---you can have the taste, even vision, to want to sing certain songs. But some people haven't experienced enough of life to have the right to sing songs about looking back. What could a 20-year-old look back on? Breast-feeding (or worse, as Woody Allen said 'from falsies')?

    Let's say there was a very gifted and sincere 22-year-old guy singer wanting to sing It Was a Very Good Year (a guy singer b/c it's a 'guy' song).

    He'd sorta be dead in the water after V2.

    (A gray wig, perhaps, and electronic 'aging' equipment---in reverse of how it was used in The Irishman?)...

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    No clue to what you refer.
    Plenty of jazz outfit like that around .. anyways ... to go all devils advokat

    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    I said---and meant---you can have the taste, even vision, to want to sing certain songs. But some people haven't experienced enough of life to have the right to sing songs about looking back. What could a 20-year-old look back on? Breast-feeding (or worse, as Woody Allen said 'from falsies')?

    Let's say there was a very gifted and sincere 22-year-old guy singer wanting to sing It Was a Very Good Year (a guy singer b/c it's a 'guy' song).

    He'd sorta be dead in the water after V2.

    (A gray wig, perhaps, and electronic 'aging' equipment---in reverse of how it was used in The Irishman?)...
    The reason De Niro is so convincing in Godfather and the Irishman is cause he's lived the mafia life and killed a lot of people in his life .. It couldn't be .. how do you say .. Acting?

    It's a performance .... Singers perform?

  13. #62
    joelf Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Umm, no, slamming those chords and such is the best thing about her playing, I dig it and I'd like to hear more guitarists play like that. I currently don't so I conclude it's many others on the scene have ways to go about their touch.
    NP. Enjoy then. She DOES play good.

    The problem here is simple: I have a different slant than most here. I did my jazz guitar studies in my 20s. Didn't say I MASTERED anything then---still working on the basics at 66.

    I was exposed to LP Broadway and film soundtracks from infancy. Melody and song were implanted.

    I got hooked on jazz at 17---having passed through the Woodstock era (I was THERE). Been at it ever since. BUT that GASB background has always been one room and jazz the other in a 2-room let's say 'house of worship'. They are equals.

    And 'guitar this, guitar that'? Not my thing at all. I know it won't do much for my popularity here---but I don't come to sites like these to be popular. Anyway, it's music; song; improvising, in no particular order. Guitar is what I play best, and a fine instrument. But why stay in the 'ghetto' with a world of MUSIC out there for us all?

    That young woman plays very nicely. Maybe I was overly grumpy (was? LOL). My head's just in a different place, has been for years.

    That's all it is...

  14. #63
    joelf Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Plenty of jazz outfit like that around .. anyways ... to go all devils advokat



    The reason De Niro is so convincing in Godfather and the Irishman is cause he's lived the mafia life and killed a lot of people in his life .. It couldn't be .. how do you say .. Acting?

    It's a performance .... Singers perform?
    Sure they do. But would a 10-year-old Tony Bennett do the justice to How do You Keep the Music Playing that the 70-year-old has?

    Life. Learn a few things about THAT 1st. Then there's something to sing about.

    It's the same thing with players. One clique---and they're all my friends and play great---sound like brilliant students at the head of the class. I enjoy hearing them and they play cleaner than I ever will and do other things I can't.

    But they learned from records (and in some cases from the mouths of masters on the stand---and I can always tell those, but it's not most). They didn't come from the culture that music grew out of. As a metaphor: remember cassette tapes? When you recorded off the other media that 1st tape was '1st generation'; 2nd '2nd generation, etc. Weaker and less true with each copy.

    (However we ALL---and I'm about 15 years older---were ACCEPTED by those black elders for our sincerity and talent). So they're good, even near-great in some cases. They are sincere as hell and sacrifice for music. I love them for it.

    But there's in the end an authenticity, and feeling tbh, missing---at least for me...
    Last edited by joelf; 01-31-2021 at 02:06 PM.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf

    But there's in the end an authenticity, and feeling tbh, missing---at least for me...

    It's not that we disagree about the core .. which is authenticity ... The thing that bugs me is that a lot of jazz is stale thru the simple act of locking it self into the GASB playlist.

    A lot of that is no longer reality .. Human joy and suffering is off course universal


    If we look at the suffering side It's pain, heartbreak etc etc .. But it's just how that where these things originate differ.

    I mean, You and I are old and lets face it that neither of us can deliver Tony Bennett's "How do you keep the music playing" .. in reality very few men can. At our age the great american song is "Screw that woman, but God how I love my kids"


    You grew up with the GASB and love it .. I'm just not sure the lyrics to many of those song are relevant ... The happy ones might be fine or something like "Just one of those things", but many of the negative ones just don't sit well in 2021.


    I dunno .... We've all been doing circled debating jazz this month in several threads and end if day I'm amazed how stale and conservative this forum is.

    You're out there writing songs, gigging (at least pre-pandemic) ... is it better in the real world than in this dusty forum?

  16. #65
    joelf Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    It's not that we disagree about the core .. which is authenticity ... The thing that bugs me is that a lot of jazz is stale thru the simple act of locking it self into the GASB playlist.

    A lot of that is no longer reality .. Human joy and suffering is off course universal


    If we look at the suffering side It's pain, heartbreak etc etc .. But it's just how that where these things originate differ.

    I mean, You and I are old and lets face it that neither of us can deliver Tony Bennett's "How do you keep the music playing" .. in reality very few men can. At our age the great american song is "Screw that woman, but God how I love my kids"


    You grew up with the GASB and love it .. I'm just not sure the lyrics to many of those song are relevant ... The happy ones might be fine or something like "Just one of those things", but many of the negative ones just don't sit well in 2021.


    I dunno .... We've all been doing circled debating jazz this month in several threads and end if day I'm amazed how stale and conservative this forum is.

    You're out there writing songs, gigging (at least pre-pandemic) ... is it better in the real world than in this dusty forum?
    MUSIC isn't stale---MUSICIANS are---or can be.

    There are people breathing new life into old songs all the time. (And a few of us trying to write new ones).

    What makes any art of communication great? It can be fresh as a cool breeze in summer; as unexpected as an audit of a pauper---but it ought to have something universal in it somewhere. A guy named Jimmy Norman taught me that.

    Imagine 'Imagine' if it were meant as an angry rant instead of a plea for unity? Who WOULDN'T want that (fascists don't count)?

    I don't care about being branded 'conservative'. One guy here called me 'retro'---as a compliment*. But they only see part of the picture. Yeah, I stand (IN PART) for conserving the author's versions of songs---but mostly because I know how hard it is to write a good one and also see so many violated, largely by 'hip' jazzers who seem too lazy to dig deeper than the rendition by whatever hero they're satisfied with (or not capable of doing more than) copying. Anyway, that's THEIR business.

    *But the nice and well-meaning cat that said I was 'retro' never heard 'The Third Wrong Man'---an insane theater piece parodying the Dante Trilogy and film noir I started in 1995. It used a narrator and mixed orchestra, and is easily the most original, radical thing I ever did. But that's only b/c it's never been financed and produced.

    So for now I'll continue to be thought of by some as the village old fart. Hey, it's a dirty job but SOMEONE'S gotta do it...

  17. #66
    joelf Guest
    And the people who write about the GASB are mostly crusty, musty, fusty old white men. They are NOT inclusive.

    Where's blues? Gospel? Even white Gospel or other liturgical music? Stevie Wonder? Beatles? Carole King? Billy Joel? Donny Hathaway? Nina Simone? Johnny Cash? Afro-Cuban (Machito worked HERE!), etc., etc.

    These composers are in the tradition of the 'song pluggers' of yore, they're just not recognized as such by old buggers like Stephen Sondheim or the late Alec Wilder (both of whom I greatly admire---OTHER than their endless bitchiness about the 'other').

    Where is it written that American music is JUST theater or film music? Well, that's the 'rub'---it's written everywhere. But it's such an outdated concept it has hair.

    Writers, take your damn blinders off already---or at least loosen 'em a little.

    Pretty please?

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    So for now I'll continue to be thought of by some as the village old fart. Hey, it's a dirty job but SOMEONE'S gotta do it...

    We like you around these parts Joel .. No reason to hide your light

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    pure bogus showmanship. So, let's not pretend she's the next great Jazz Artist of the future as were Miles
    Right ... Miles was 100% about the music and 0% about bogus showmanship ... Gotcha!


  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    I will debate no one. Let me PLAY my opinions. And let me hear what the other guy/gal sounds like.

    Anything else is 'chin music'...
    Yeah .. Those who can play and those who can't talk

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "I dunno .... We've all been doing circled debating jazz this month in several threads and end if day I'm amazed how stale and conservative this forum is." Lobomov


    Hi, L,
    I think debating Jazz is one of the strengths of this Forum. For some of us, serious communication about Art is non-existent among our circles of acquaintances. This is certainly my dilemma and until we return to performing again where occasionally you'll be approached by a fellow musician, we remain in spiritual isolation. In regards to the term "conservative," it is not necessarily a pejorative term. The Cambridge Dictionary defines conservative as: "
    tending to emphasize the importance of preserving traditional cultural and religious values, and to oppose change, esp. sudden change." In regards to Art and in this case Music, the preservation of cultural values is a main ingredient to variety and depth of an Art. For example, why would a musician today want to study/play Bach, Beethoven, or Schumann? Why would a visual artist want to learn the techniques of Vermeer, Michelangelo, Gauguin, or a writer to study the techniques of Shakespeare, Joseph Conrad, or Hemingway? Because, within a "tradition" is a wealth and depth of human experience/Art at the highest level. Should we discard this greatness because it is not "new, fresh or deemed conservative" by contemporary values?
    Finally, in regards to Elinora Strino, there have been some respondents who have suggested/implied/inferred that she is a polished artist, a new phenom, etc. and nothing could be further from the truth. She is typical of many university educated musicians who have good technique and knowledge of the idiom but are beginning their journey at the bottom. When she plays, IMO, she has no concept other than technique as her music has no real direction and for me, feels pre-programmed. It's a show and especially at the end of one of her pieces she plays/fingers a hammer-on note with her right hand followed by a coy smile--pure bogus showmanship. So, let's not pretend she's the next great Jazz Artist of the future as were Miles and Chet . . . and, as I said in a previous comment, I'd like to hear her in 10 years if she's still playing and continues to develop. So, when we use someone as an example on this Forum, do we only accept praise? Or, can we provide serious, critical opinions that look deeper into a musician and musicianship from a personal perspective even if it clashes with the mainstream? Play live . . . Marinero

    P.S. I've never known or played with a savant. However, I've played with some good/great musicians who have developed their skills over a lifetime of playing. Artist or Music Machine? It's your call. M
    I was that respondent, yea. I understand that Elinora Strino feels pre-programmed and no real direction to you. Fair enough. But have you considered that maybe it's your ears that could use some polish? I mean, it's an honest question we should ask ourselves from time to time, right?
    And if a 'coy' smile (if I can add- of a pretty lady no less) makes you angry....? Listen to one great Louis Jordan, it's tongue in cheek, but marvelous song.


  22. #71
    joelf Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    That's a proper, healthy attitude. Adds weight to the opinion.
    I'd put it another way: It's the only opinion that HAS weight.

    Talk is cheap---we've all heard that, right?

    Let me use the example of the paper tiger in bully's clothing: B/c I'm small and don't take shit from anyone w/o the business end of a gun at my temple I hear, in Philly, (and thank the Lord I'll be outta this sad-ass burg by Spring) a lot of rightfully pissed-off black guys rail very angrily, and menacingly at me. But threatening ME not only is misdirected, (I have no POWER to right wrongs) it shows what cowards they are in the end. (Plus I never start any shit).

    'I'm a slap the shit outta you' (the 'infraction' is usually car-pedestrian related if not actual road rage). Musta heard it hundreds of times.

    But I stand right there and try not to laugh b/c they're fat-mouthing bullshitters. People who REALLY mean to do things act, don't talk.

    So I take many comments in chat rooms as chuckle fodder---especially when I hear some of these guys 'play'. If someone posits something thought-provoking in an articulate manner, sure I'll respond. But the $5 words of academia or idiotic Benson v Metheny drivel? Well, guess?...

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Right ... Miles was 100% about the music and 0% about bogus showmanship ... Gotcha!





    Good point, Lobo!
    May I restate: early Miles.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    I was that respondent, yea. I understand that Elinora Strino feels pre-programmed and no real direction to you. Fair enough. But have you considered that maybe it's your ears that could use some polish? I mean, it's an honest question we should ask ourselves from time to time, right?
    And if a 'coy' smile (if I can add- of a pretty lady no less) makes you angry....? Listen to one great Louis Jordan, it's tongue in cheek, but marvelous song.


    Hi, Hep,
    I've had more polish in my ears than most after a lifetime of living/loving music. However, it would be fair to say that I have some stringent standards and real likes/dislikes. I have little free time and want to be moved by music . . . ergo, although I give many people a "listen," it usually doesn't make it past the opening melody for most newcomers. So, if I have an hour to listen to music, do I choose to listen to musicians that move me emotionally/spiritually, or . . . do I listen to a flurry of newcomers with short exits? However, that's how I found Birelli LaGrene, Yamandu Costa, Joey Alexander, Pavel Steidl, etc.
    In regards to attractive women, I'm a healthy, heterosexual male and love physically beautiful women especially if they are talented. My first wife and current are both very physically beautiful women and very talented visual artists(painters). However, if I judged them by their Art, their physical looks would not be a consideration. Thanks for your honest reply.
    Play live . . . Marinero

    P.S. Great video, Hep! You want to now why Jazz is terminal? Because people stopped dancing to Jazz when it went to the concert hall. Music was both Art and Entertainment. And, "Schtick" and novelty songs were part of the show. That's how they made the money. But, along with the "schtick" came some great Jazz music! M

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Good point, Lobo!
    May I restate: early Miles.
    Play live . . . Marinero

    OK, so you're saying Miles ran out of art at some point and no longer could play, so he had to resort to showmanship for the last couple of decades of his career?

    I mean .. You can't both be a showman .. and an artist, can you?

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    OK, so you're saying Miles ran out of art at some point and no longer could play, so he had to resort to showmanship for the last couple of decades of his career?

    I mean .. You can't both be a showman .. and an artist, can you?
    That last question is a joke right? I hope so; most of life isn't based on silly binary questions.

    Life is based on a percentile distribution.