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  1. #51

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    I've been taking the plunge into singing lately---sort of inevitable since it's always been about the songs for me. I mean THE SONGS, NOT Joe jazz player's interpretation---a fine way NOT to learn the melody and composer's changes.

    And ballads; medium swingers; and comic songs are what I can pull off best. I thought F and Eb were my keys, but I sound best on I've Got You Under My Skin; Street of Dreams; and Ev'ry Time We Say Goodbye in C. My own songs I wouldn't take a chance, say, demoing myself. There's too much at stake not to hire a real singer. But on low-key gigs...

    It's for me the superior way to internalize both the melodic contour and what the song's about. If you do that HW---and it doesn't HAVE to be by singing---I believe you then, and ONLY then, deserve as wide a berth as you desire. Go ahead and do what you hear, what the creative muse whispers in your ear. You know the song.

    The ballads I've been singing at home lately: Guess I'll Hang my Tears...; Wee Small Hours; A Time For Love---and some Stevie Wonder/Syreeta classics I'd never have the nerve to try in public: Seems So Long; Where Were You When I Needed You; Never Dreamed You'd Leave in Summer; Too Shy To Say; All is Fair in Love; Something Out of the Blue.

    (Then I hear Shirley Bassey or Barbra do them---and I REALLY get that I should play, not sing those in public).

    But as a learning tool and for sheer enjoyment I highly recommend singing...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Let's not ignore the new up and coming players. Some of them play ballads beautifully.

    W/o even listening to the vid; the fact that it says Bill Evans---like HE wrote it and not Legrand-Bergmans---shows a main thing wrong with jazz today, or at least what sticks in MY craw: insularity, and not giving a crap about composers. Songs tell us what to play---ALL the info is there, so respect those composers and lyricists---they worked their asses of on that material.

    Imagine where jazz would be if all the great ASB writers never were born (and Ellington; Strayhorn; and Waller belong in that canon to me)...

  4. #53
    Even for people with low quality singing voices its very important to Know The Lyrics to the Song so you will understand what its About!!!

  5. #54

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    And sorry, but I didn't care for her performance either, though she can certainly play the instrument and has some good ideas. More about HER than the song, and her touch has a ways to go---slamming those chords and such.

    You have to play these songs for YEARS before even beginning to understand, let alone interpret, them.

    When I went to Holland the 1st time a roughly 20-year-old woman was one night singing Blame it on my Youth. Well, I applaud her good taste, but really? Silly me for thinking her youth was now, and what the hell is there to reflect about?

    All the songs about lost or misspent youth, a theme that hits me in the heart BTW, were written by people who had lived enough life to make sense writing about it. And George Bernard Shaw had it right, too.

    But the young are inspiring in other ways: they're often as yet untainted---free of dogma (like I'm not---LOL). I like the freshness many of them bring to bear. I learn from them concepts I might miss out on if I failed to listen...
    Last edited by joelf; 01-30-2021 at 12:31 PM.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve burchfield
    Even for people with low quality singing voices its very important to Know The Lyrics to the Song so you will understand what its About!!!
    Worked pretty good for a guy named Lester Young...

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    And sorry, but I didn't care for her performance either, though she can certainly play the instrument and has some good ideas. More about HER than the song, and her touch has a ways to go---slamming those chords and such.

    You have to play these songs for YEARS before even beginning to understand, let alone interpret, them.

    When I went to Holland the 1st time a roughly 20-year-old woman was one night singing Blame it on my Youth. Well, I applaud her good taste, but really? Silly me for thinking her youth was now, and what the hell is there to reflect about?

    All the songs about lost or misspent youth, a theme that hits me in the heart BTW, were written by people who had lived enough life to make sense writing about it. And George Bernard Shaw had it right, too.

    But the young are inspiring in other ways: they're often as yet untainted---free of dogma (like I'm not---LOL). I like the freshness many of them bring to bear. I learn from them concepts I might miss out on if I failed to listen...

    4 guys with college degrees and a singer that shows up with her Louis Vuitton bag and iphone 12 in order to sing old blues songs about hardship .. You're saying that something is wrong with that?

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    And sorry, but I didn't care for her performance either, though she can certainly play the instrument and has some good ideas. More about HER than the song, and her touch has a ways to go---slamming those chords and such.
    Umm, no, slamming those chords and such is the best thing about her playing, I dig it and I'd like to hear more guitarists play like that. I currently don't so I conclude it's many others on the scene have ways to go about their touch.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Let's not ignore the new up and coming players. Some of them play ballads beautifully.

    Pungent. Like a good cheese. That’s the way I like my solo guitar.

  10. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Pungent. Like a good cheese. That’s the way I like my solo guitar.
    Hi, C,
    I'm assuming you're referring to Limburger . . . I agree. Play live . . . Marinero

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    4 guys with college degrees and a singer that shows up with her Louis Vuitton bag and iphone 12 in order to sing old blues songs about hardship .. You're saying that something is wrong with that?
    No clue to what you refer.

    I said---and meant---you can have the taste, even vision, to want to sing certain songs. But some people haven't experienced enough of life to have the right to sing songs about looking back. What could a 20-year-old look back on? Breast-feeding (or worse, as Woody Allen said 'from falsies')?

    Let's say there was a very gifted and sincere 22-year-old guy singer wanting to sing It Was a Very Good Year (a guy singer b/c it's a 'guy' song).

    He'd sorta be dead in the water after V2.

    (A gray wig, perhaps, and electronic 'aging' equipment---in reverse of how it was used in The Irishman?)...

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    No clue to what you refer.
    Plenty of jazz outfit like that around .. anyways ... to go all devils advokat

    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    I said---and meant---you can have the taste, even vision, to want to sing certain songs. But some people haven't experienced enough of life to have the right to sing songs about looking back. What could a 20-year-old look back on? Breast-feeding (or worse, as Woody Allen said 'from falsies')?

    Let's say there was a very gifted and sincere 22-year-old guy singer wanting to sing It Was a Very Good Year (a guy singer b/c it's a 'guy' song).

    He'd sorta be dead in the water after V2.

    (A gray wig, perhaps, and electronic 'aging' equipment---in reverse of how it was used in The Irishman?)...
    The reason De Niro is so convincing in Godfather and the Irishman is cause he's lived the mafia life and killed a lot of people in his life .. It couldn't be .. how do you say .. Acting?

    It's a performance .... Singers perform?

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Umm, no, slamming those chords and such is the best thing about her playing, I dig it and I'd like to hear more guitarists play like that. I currently don't so I conclude it's many others on the scene have ways to go about their touch.
    NP. Enjoy then. She DOES play good.

    The problem here is simple: I have a different slant than most here. I did my jazz guitar studies in my 20s. Didn't say I MASTERED anything then---still working on the basics at 66.

    I was exposed to LP Broadway and film soundtracks from infancy. Melody and song were implanted.

    I got hooked on jazz at 17---having passed through the Woodstock era (I was THERE). Been at it ever since. BUT that GASB background has always been one room and jazz the other in a 2-room let's say 'house of worship'. They are equals.

    And 'guitar this, guitar that'? Not my thing at all. I know it won't do much for my popularity here---but I don't come to sites like these to be popular. Anyway, it's music; song; improvising, in no particular order. Guitar is what I play best, and a fine instrument. But why stay in the 'ghetto' with a world of MUSIC out there for us all?

    That young woman plays very nicely. Maybe I was overly grumpy (was? LOL). My head's just in a different place, has been for years.

    That's all it is...

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Plenty of jazz outfit like that around .. anyways ... to go all devils advokat



    The reason De Niro is so convincing in Godfather and the Irishman is cause he's lived the mafia life and killed a lot of people in his life .. It couldn't be .. how do you say .. Acting?

    It's a performance .... Singers perform?
    Sure they do. But would a 10-year-old Tony Bennett do the justice to How do You Keep the Music Playing that the 70-year-old has?

    Life. Learn a few things about THAT 1st. Then there's something to sing about.

    It's the same thing with players. One clique---and they're all my friends and play great---sound like brilliant students at the head of the class. I enjoy hearing them and they play cleaner than I ever will and do other things I can't.

    But they learned from records (and in some cases from the mouths of masters on the stand---and I can always tell those, but it's not most). They didn't come from the culture that music grew out of. As a metaphor: remember cassette tapes? When you recorded off the other media that 1st tape was '1st generation'; 2nd '2nd generation, etc. Weaker and less true with each copy.

    (However we ALL---and I'm about 15 years older---were ACCEPTED by those black elders for our sincerity and talent). So they're good, even near-great in some cases. They are sincere as hell and sacrifice for music. I love them for it.

    But there's in the end an authenticity, and feeling tbh, missing---at least for me...
    Last edited by joelf; 01-31-2021 at 02:06 PM.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf

    But there's in the end an authenticity, and feeling tbh, missing---at least for me...

    It's not that we disagree about the core .. which is authenticity ... The thing that bugs me is that a lot of jazz is stale thru the simple act of locking it self into the GASB playlist.

    A lot of that is no longer reality .. Human joy and suffering is off course universal


    If we look at the suffering side It's pain, heartbreak etc etc .. But it's just how that where these things originate differ.

    I mean, You and I are old and lets face it that neither of us can deliver Tony Bennett's "How do you keep the music playing" .. in reality very few men can. At our age the great american song is "Screw that woman, but God how I love my kids"


    You grew up with the GASB and love it .. I'm just not sure the lyrics to many of those song are relevant ... The happy ones might be fine or something like "Just one of those things", but many of the negative ones just don't sit well in 2021.


    I dunno .... We've all been doing circled debating jazz this month in several threads and end if day I'm amazed how stale and conservative this forum is.

    You're out there writing songs, gigging (at least pre-pandemic) ... is it better in the real world than in this dusty forum?

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    It's not that we disagree about the core .. which is authenticity ... The thing that bugs me is that a lot of jazz is stale thru the simple act of locking it self into the GASB playlist.

    A lot of that is no longer reality .. Human joy and suffering is off course universal


    If we look at the suffering side It's pain, heartbreak etc etc .. But it's just how that where these things originate differ.

    I mean, You and I are old and lets face it that neither of us can deliver Tony Bennett's "How do you keep the music playing" .. in reality very few men can. At our age the great american song is "Screw that woman, but God how I love my kids"


    You grew up with the GASB and love it .. I'm just not sure the lyrics to many of those song are relevant ... The happy ones might be fine or something like "Just one of those things", but many of the negative ones just don't sit well in 2021.


    I dunno .... We've all been doing circled debating jazz this month in several threads and end if day I'm amazed how stale and conservative this forum is.

    You're out there writing songs, gigging (at least pre-pandemic) ... is it better in the real world than in this dusty forum?
    MUSIC isn't stale---MUSICIANS are---or can be.

    There are people breathing new life into old songs all the time. (And a few of us trying to write new ones).

    What makes any art of communication great? It can be fresh as a cool breeze in summer; as unexpected as an audit of a pauper---but it ought to have something universal in it somewhere. A guy named Jimmy Norman taught me that.

    Imagine 'Imagine' if it were meant as an angry rant instead of a plea for unity? Who WOULDN'T want that (fascists don't count)?

    I don't care about being branded 'conservative'. One guy here called me 'retro'---as a compliment*. But they only see part of the picture. Yeah, I stand (IN PART) for conserving the author's versions of songs---but mostly because I know how hard it is to write a good one and also see so many violated, largely by 'hip' jazzers who seem too lazy to dig deeper than the rendition by whatever hero they're satisfied with (or not capable of doing more than) copying. Anyway, that's THEIR business.

    *But the nice and well-meaning cat that said I was 'retro' never heard 'The Third Wrong Man'---an insane theater piece parodying the Dante Trilogy and film noir I started in 1995. It used a narrator and mixed orchestra, and is easily the most original, radical thing I ever did. But that's only b/c it's never been financed and produced.

    So for now I'll continue to be thought of by some as the village old fart. Hey, it's a dirty job but SOMEONE'S gotta do it...

  17. #66

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    And the people who write about the GASB are mostly crusty, musty, fusty old white men. They are NOT inclusive.

    Where's blues? Gospel? Even white Gospel or other liturgical music? Stevie Wonder? Beatles? Carole King? Billy Joel? Donny Hathaway? Nina Simone? Johnny Cash? Afro-Cuban (Machito worked HERE!), etc., etc.

    These composers are in the tradition of the 'song pluggers' of yore, they're just not recognized as such by old buggers like Stephen Sondheim or the late Alec Wilder (both of whom I greatly admire---OTHER than their endless bitchiness about the 'other').

    Where is it written that American music is JUST theater or film music? Well, that's the 'rub'---it's written everywhere. But it's such an outdated concept it has hair.

    Writers, take your damn blinders off already---or at least loosen 'em a little.

    Pretty please?

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    So for now I'll continue to be thought of by some as the village old fart. Hey, it's a dirty job but SOMEONE'S gotta do it...

    We like you around these parts Joel .. No reason to hide your light

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    No reason to hide your light
    Not hidden---it's strapped around my head.

    Like a miner---or sandhog...

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    You're out there writing songs, gigging (at least pre-pandemic) ... is it better in the real world than in this dusty forum?
    Let's be clear: I've NEVER made a full-time living from music. I worked one week at the West End; 3 with Hadda Brooks at Michael's Pub; one on tour as a leader. Would you call that a career? Only if you're VERY kind (or very dumb).

    I'm reconciled to whatever now. I got my props. Guys that many people drool over here, never mentioning my name (or many others as good or better), come hear me play. My writing has been both acknowledged and performed by people that might surprise you.

    That's all bullshit anyway---accolades; popularity. Who cares? It pisses me off way more that I should've made MONEY at this all these years. But there were certain things I didn't want to do and I didn't make it easy on myself in many ways.

    This dusty forum? I'll take the real world over ANY digital semblance. You can hear voices and ascertain sincerity or insincerity. If someone's being sarcastic you get it, unlike in chat rooms. Etc., etc.

    I have serious feelings for a woman I cannot have. She used to call me or I her. No more. Now it's email or the highway. And this time for once I did nothing to deserve that banishment. She IS a good writer and it pleases her to do it that way. Not me, though b/c my nose is so open I bend over backwards to accommodate her. But now she may have pushed me away for good (wonder if that's by design, though she does care for me in her way) by saying she'll refuse vaccination. This is based on nothing scientifically provable---just bullshit Gary Null pseudo-science (PLEASE let's not go THERE---this is for the story's sake only). I tried to reason with her; cajole; etc. ON F'ING EMAIL. Well, 1. it IS her life----adore her though I may, and 2. it's a good time for a break or just a break up, as things were getting too intense. She (and her husband) are also intense Christians and the emails began to resemble tracts. I finally laid it out: She and hubby are moving after retiring soon. I told her she may write a letter (that's real at least: handwriting) then, to give forwarding address, then---if she so wishes 'call---like you used to'. I doubt I'll hear anything and from my experience with Christians they, in the end, want to band together and wink about how wrong everyone else is. Let 'em---her included. I hope she goes in peace. I was lucky to have her in my life as a friend for 23 years. Even the most successful, longest-running show has to close SOME time. (I'm getting MY feelings out in a suite: To Her. I'll keep her name out of it, of course. Lorenz Hart, you got it WRONG! Unrequited love is NOT a bore. It's instead the inspiration for good to great art).

    I haven't yet figured out how to work any digital angle for profit. (I do a little online teaching---I meant as a player or composer). It seems that all the under-40s that 'play' are thrilled to be 'paid' in exposure. Until laws change and exposure can then pay bills; put kids through school; get your car inspected; etc. I'll take cash or check, please...

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    I have serious feelings for a woman I cannot have
    That is one of the things I haven't had in a long time ... I mean the serious feelings to start of with sure .. But as soon as she starts being indecisive or even says no then it's .. No problem, I respect that, you do you .. followed by withdrawal .. I guess a form of being pissed off/taking no bullshit has replaced previous longing.


    I dunno .. Letting the fire die probably has downsides, but currently I like the upsides .. No feeling trapped .. and while not finding"true love" currently .. Life does tend to lead to plenty of occasional dipping in and out situations where woman drops by once every 1-3 months for a bit of escapism. Apparently clearly signaling to a woman that she can fuck off is she pleases is a good thing in her world.


    But I'm late 40s ... in ten years time when the kids have departed that may no longer be enough?


    But yeah .. "OK, Good luck finding what you're looking for!"followed by shrugging shoulders is default these days

  22. #71
    "I dunno .... We've all been doing circled debating jazz this month in several threads and end if day I'm amazed how stale and conservative this forum is." Lobomov


    Hi, L,
    I think debating Jazz is one of the strengths of this Forum. For some of us, serious communication about Art is non-existent among our circles of acquaintances. This is certainly my dilemma and until we return to performing again where occasionally you'll be approached by a fellow musician, we remain in spiritual isolation. In regards to the term "conservative," it is not necessarily a pejorative term. The Cambridge Dictionary defines conservative as: "
    tending to emphasize the importance of preserving traditional cultural and religious values, and to oppose change, esp. sudden change." In regards to Art and in this case Music, the preservation of cultural values is a main ingredient to variety and depth of an Art. For example, why would a musician today want to study/play Bach, Beethoven, or Schumann? Why would a visual artist want to learn the techniques of Vermeer, Michelangelo, Gauguin, or a writer to study the techniques of Shakespeare, Joseph Conrad, or Hemingway? Because, within a "tradition" is a wealth and depth of human experience/Art at the highest level. Should we discard this greatness because it is not "new, fresh or deemed conservative" by contemporary values?
    Finally, in regards to Elinora Strino, there have been some respondents who have suggested/implied/inferred that she is a polished artist, a new phenom, etc. and nothing could be further from the truth. She is typical of many university educated musicians who have good technique and knowledge of the idiom but are beginning their journey at the bottom. When she plays, IMO, she has no concept other than technique as her music has no real direction and for me, feels pre-programmed. It's a show and especially at the end of one of her pieces she plays/fingers a hammer-on note with her right hand followed by a coy smile--pure bogus showmanship. So, let's not pretend she's the next great Jazz Artist of the future as were Miles and Chet . . . and, as I said in a previous comment, I'd like to hear her in 10 years if she's still playing and continues to develop. So, when we use someone as an example on this Forum, do we only accept praise? Or, can we provide serious, critical opinions that look deeper into a musician and musicianship from a personal perspective even if it clashes with the mainstream? Play live . . . Marinero

    P.S. I've never known or played with a savant. However, I've played with some good/great musicians who have developed their skills over a lifetime of playing. Artist or Music Machine? It's your call. M

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    That is one of the things I haven't had in a long time ... I mean the serious feelings to start of with sure .. But as soon as she starts being indecisive or even says no then it's .. No problem, I respect that, you do you .. followed by withdrawal .. I guess a form of being pissed off/taking no bullshit has replaced previous longing.


    I dunno .. Letting the fire die probably has downsides, but currently I like the upsides .. No feeling trapped .. and while not finding"true love" currently .. Life does tend to lead to plenty of occasional dipping in and out situations where woman drops by once every 1-3 months for a bit of escapism. Apparently clearly signaling to a woman that she can fuck off is she pleases is a good thing in her world.


    But I'm late 40s ... in ten years time when the kids have departed that may no longer be enough?


    But yeah .. "OK, Good luck finding what you're looking for!"followed by shrugging shoulders is default these days
    Mine is lose-lose. She's married AND a Christian. No f'ing way----and even if she were up for something deeper I would demure. Mess around w/a married woman? ME, a 'Lothario' in bald Jew's clothing?

    I've always said re women: I got great taste, but slow legs...

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "I dunno .... We've all been doing circled debating jazz this month in several threads and end if day I'm amazed how stale and conservative this forum is." Lobomov


    Hi, L,
    I think debating Jazz is one of the strengths of this Forum. For some of us, serious communication about Art is non-existent among our circles of acquaintances. This is certainly my dilemma and until we return to performing again where occasionally you'll be approached by a fellow musician, we remain in spiritual isolation. In regards to the term "conservative," it is not necessarily a pejorative term. The Cambridge Dictionary defines conservative as: "
    tending to emphasize the importance of preserving traditional cultural and religious values, and to oppose change, esp. sudden change." In regards to Art and in this case Music, the preservation of cultural values is a main ingredient to variety and depth of an Art. For example, why would a musician today want to study/play Bach, Beethoven, or Schumann? Why would a visual artist want to learn the techniques of Vermeer, Michelangelo, Gauguin, or a writer to study the techniques of Shakespeare, Joseph Conrad, or Hemingway? Because, within a "tradition" is a wealth and depth of human experience/Art at the highest level. Should we discard this greatness because it is not "new, fresh or deemed conservative" by contemporary values?
    Finally, in regards to Elinora Strino, there have been some respondents who have suggested/implied/inferred that she is a polished artist, a new phenom, etc. and nothing could be further from the truth. She is typical of many university educated musicians who have good technique and knowledge of the idiom but are beginning their journey at the bottom. When she plays, IMO, she has no concept other than technique as her music has no real direction and for me, feels pre-programmed. It's a show and especially at the end of one of her pieces she plays/fingers a hammer-on note with her right hand followed by a coy smile--pure bogus showmanship. So, let's not pretend she's the next great Jazz Artist of the future as were Miles and Chet . . . and, as I said in a previous comment, I'd like to hear her in 10 years if she's still playing and continues to develop. So, when we use someone as an example on this Forum, do we only accept praise? Or, can we provide serious, critical opinions that look deeper into a musician and musicianship from a personal perspective even if it clashes with the mainstream? Play live . . . Marinero

    P.S. I've never known or played with a savant. However, I've played with some good/great musicians who have developed their skills over a lifetime of playing. Artist or Music Machine? It's your call. M
    I will debate no one. Let me PLAY my opinions. And let me hear what the other guy/gal sounds like.

    Anything else is 'chin music'...

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    I will debate no one. Let me PLAY my opinions. And let me hear what the other guy/gal sounds like.

    Anything else is 'chin music'...
    That's a proper, healthy attitude. Adds weight to the opinion.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    pure bogus showmanship. So, let's not pretend she's the next great Jazz Artist of the future as were Miles
    Right ... Miles was 100% about the music and 0% about bogus showmanship ... Gotcha!