Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Posts 1 to 31 of 31
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Reading

    Iris-41e4tzb3sjl-_sl350_-jpg

    and the lead sheet for Iris shows Ab(nat5 #5) but the melody has d and e (b5 and #5). My ear is not sharp enough to casually hear if HH is also playing eb against this, but seems odd - should it not be Ab (b5 #5)?
    Last edited by BWV; 08-07-2020 at 05:00 PM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Shorter’s copyright lead sheets often differ from what the group actually played on the day. Doesn’t the book also include a ‘corrected’ lead sheet (with Ab b5 #5) which reflects the recorded version?

    I haven’t got the book available at the moment but that’s what I remember seeing. I learned the tune from that ‘corrected’ sheet a few weeks ago.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Shorter’s copyright lead sheets often differ from what the group actually played on the day. Doesn’t the book also include a ‘corrected’ lead sheet (with Ab b5 #5) which reflects the recorded version?

    I haven’t got the book available at the moment but that’s what I remember seeing. I learned the tune from that ‘corrected’ sheet a few weeks ago.
    that is my question, the corrected sheet lists Ab (nat 5 # 5) on p 85, to make it more confusing, I notice that that chord listed in the transcription of Wayne’s solo Ab (b5 nat5) and Wayne plays an E nat and descending to a Db in the first instance and an Eb and E nat in the second chorus

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Ok see what you mean, I’ve found the book now.

    In fact I play that chord as Ab b5 #5 because as you say, that’s what the melody describes. (I probably misread the leadsheet that way too).

    It is a bit odd, when I get time I’ll listen to the recording more closely.

  6. #5
    I guess an Ab M7 (#5 b5) would be normally written as Ab M7 #5 #11

    FWIW,, the Ab(nat5 #5) can be voiced as Emin/maj7 / Ab and
    Ab(b5 nat5) can be Cmadd9/ Ab and you can voiceless nicely between the two

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Just listened to the track at half speed, I think he is right, what Hancock plays during the theme sounds more like Ab nat 5 #5 to me.

    I don’t hear the b5 in the piano chord, it is a closer clash than that, i.e. just a semitone. Of course by the time Hancock hits those upper harmonies (he kind of staggers the chord), the melody is sitting entirely on the #5 so it all works.

    Fortunately on the guitar either chord is possible, by using the open top E string to get the #5.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    I hate to be pedestrian but the Real Book just says AbM7#5, which I was playing as 4x555x. The D, G and E melody notes fit fine with that. Might be different on a piano, of course.

    (I always thought bar 14 was more obscure)
    Last edited by ragman1; 08-02-2020 at 12:37 PM.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Christian, by the looks of it, plays 435x5x.


  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I hate to be pedestrian but the Real Book just says AbM7#5, which I was playing as 4x555x. The D, G and E notes fit fine with that. Might be different on a piano, of course.

    (I always thought bar 14 was more obscure)
    That works perfectly well, also sounds very good on the guitar for some reason.

    The book in question is very thorough, he analyses what they actually played in some detail.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I hate to be pedestrian but the Real Book just says AbM7#5, which I was playing as 4x555x. The D, G and E melody notes fit fine with that. Might be different on a piano, of course.

    (I always thought bar 14 was more obscure)
    what does the Real Book have for bar 14? The book above has AM7/Db

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Christian, by the looks of it, plays 435x5x.

    nope

  13. #12
    To play the melody, the most ready solution is 4x553 followed by the 1st string g then e

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Graham -

    Shorter’s copyright lead sheets often differ from what the group actually played on the day
    Which probably sums it up. It means there's no absolutely 'correct' version. As usual, probably :-)

    I don't think it's worth getting hung up on one chord, to be honest. Play whatever sounds right/good.

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    what does the Real Book have for bar 14? The book above has AM7/Db
    Db-(b6)

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    I play 4 x 3 0 5 x there

    Which isn't vanilla. But I just liked the sound of that chord.

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I play 4 x 3 0 5 x there

    Which isn't vanilla. But I just liked the sound of that chord.
    So sort of Ab6#5... that's okay. Sounded good.

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    BMV -

    The problem with Db-(b6), if it's taken as AM7/Db, is that 5x665x with the bass swapped to Db just gives a vanilla Dbm chord. Doesn't do much, but the melody over it is Ab Gb Eb Db.

    I think I ended up playing it as x47644, or something like that. Can't remember now.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    I play it as x42224 to include the melody note on top. I tend to hear it as a Dbmin b6 chord in the context of the tune at that point.

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    So sort of Ab6#5... that's okay. Sounded good.
    Thank you for your validation.

    In seriousness, that chord is conceptualised as a Cadd4 over an Ab bass. So there's a few inversions of C E F G that you can make over the Ab bass. It sounded kind of bitter with that semitone clash, a little bit of 'Ugly Beauty' that I admire in players when used in the right way. Stops it from sounding like lounge music, which is a danger with solo jazz guitar. Everything becomes too syrupy.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Thank you for your validation.
    Interesting psychology. It wasn't a validation, I just meant I thought it sounded good and suited what you did. To my ear, anyhow.

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    BMV -

    The problem with Db-(b6), if it's taken as AM7/Db, is that 5x665x with the bass swapped to Db just gives a vanilla Dbm chord. Doesn't do much, but the melody over it is Ab Gb Eb Db.

    I think I ended up playing it as x47644, or something like that. Can't remember now.
    and the chord spelling in the book does not make much sense as AM7/Db enharmonically is just a first inversion AM7. On Wayne’s solo it alternatively lists Abm9 and D13sus for that measure

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    and the chord spelling in the book does not make much sense as AM7/Db enharmonically is just a first inversion AM7. On Wayne’s solo it alternatively lists Abm9 and D13sus for that measure
    Did you mean Db13sus? The melody fits well over those two.

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Did you mean Db13sus? The melody fits well over those two.
    yes, sorry

  25. #24
    The solution I came up for 14 is a db augmented triad x432, which creates a M7#5 sound with the held over Ab from the last upbeat of the prev measure. Voiceleads nicely from x4545x in 13 then resolving to x433xx in 15

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    Yes the book says Db13sus at that point in Wayne’s solo.

    I tend to see these chords as a typical Herbie Hancock move, i.e. the chords during the theme are Db7(#11) to Amaj/Db. If you think of it as some sort of Dbsus followed by Amaj triad over Db, it is a lot like those chords he does at the end of Dolphin Dance, i.e. the upper notes just move down a whole tone while the pedal bass note is unchanged.

    Naming these chords can can be a bit tricky as it doesn’t necessarily capture the precise piano voicings very well, and I think they are quite important.

  27. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Yes the book says Db13sus at that point in Wayne’s solo.

    I tend to see these chords as a typical Herbie Hancock move, i.e. the chords during the theme are Db7(#11) to Amaj/Db. If you think of it as some sort of Dbsus followed by Amaj triad over Db, it is a lot like those chords he does at the end of Dolphin Dance, i.e. the upper notes just move down a whole tone while the pedal bass note is unchanged.

    Naming these chords can can be a bit tricky as it doesn’t necessarily capture the precise piano voicings very well, and I think they are quite important.
    and its another whole level of error mapping these symbols to the guitar while trying to preserve the melody line on top. Db is about the worst pedal note you can find for the instrument

  28. #27

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Interesting psychology. It wasn't a validation, I just meant I thought it sounded good and suited what you did. To my ear, anyhow.
    it was funny the way you put it, made me chuckle.

  29. #28

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    it was funny the way you put it, made me chuckle.
    Sorry, I was probably talking to myself - 6 instead of M7, I get it. I suppose it did sound pompous.

    But I wouldn't deign to bestow seals of approval. Seal of disapproval, maybe :-)

  30. #29

    User Info Menu

    The carrot and the stick :-)

  31. #30
    Any usefulness in looking at the repeated AbM7 - Db7 changes as backdoor II-Vs? This would imply, of course, an Eb tonality (while the Waters book has it in an obscured Fm and Shorter’s original lead sheet was prominently in Fm)

    interesting though that this appears to be one piece of Wayne’s that Miles did change up a bit, when notably he generally did not alter Shorter’s compositions

  32. #31

    User Info Menu

    Interesting! In all these years, never thought of it as something else than a regular AbM7#5

    However, when I listened to it now, it actually is a nat 5 in there as well. Really cool! You can hear Ron play it as well