The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #276

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Probably Thomas Edison. He supposedly loved practical jokes involving electric shocks.
    right, just for that I’m putting you on ‘ignore’ :-)

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #277

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    Mozart’s refined and subtle wit

  4. #278

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    The snobbery on parade here would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

  5. #279

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
    The snobbery on parade here would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

    Well, T,
    I wouldn't call it snobbery but rather differing tastes. This, for me, is the importance of Forums like JGF where people with similar or disparate tastes can share their ideas, feelings and concerns. For most of us, collaboration with other musicians is either non-existent or infrequent. And, at least in my case, it was a very important element in my musical development as a working musician where ideas, concepts and tastes were shared and explored. So, in a sense, we can at least share a vicarious experience through our written words.
    Also, when we air our ideas about Music, it gives others a sense of your level of Music exposure/understanding and how much or how little knowledge one possesses in their personal development. For example, when I was a young working musician in Chicago in my teen years through my late twenties, I was totally immersed in Old School Rock and Roll, R&B, and Jazz. I would frequently demean Classical Musicians and their music as dull and uninteresting. My musical tastes were only focused in one area with only a superficial knowledge of the Classical genre. However, later in life, when I lived in a rural area where there were no real possibilities, if any, for working with other musicians as a saxophonist, I switched lanes and returned to the guitar in a different format and began the serious study of Classical guitar. And over the last 30 years, it has provided for me ,as a musician, an incredible wealth of exposure to some of the greatest music ever written as well as expanding my vision of what it means to make good music irrespective of genre and how expression based on composition is essential to creating a musical personality. And, recently, returning to electric Jazz guitar performance, it has helped me approach this very different instrument ,compared to Classical guitar, with fresh eyes and a very open mind.
    So, for some, they seek to take the discussion on a personal level where personalities/tastes clash and and they chose invective rather than a desire to understand others views. And, this is certainly not beneficial to any serious discussion. So, for me, I enjoy the give and take and hope others will take a higher road to understand that Music has many facets and as in the words of the late Winston Churchill "If two people think the same about everything . . . there is only one person thinking." Good playing . . . Marinero

  6. #280

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Well, T,
    I wouldn't call it snobbery but rather differing tastes. This, for me, is the importance of Forums like JGF where people with similar or disparate tastes can share their ideas, feelings and concerns.

    [...]

    So, for me, I enjoy the give and take and hope others will take a higher road to understand that Music has many facets and as in the words of the late Winston Churchill "If two people think the same about everything . . . there is only one person thinking." Good playing . . . Marinero
    It's not that differing opinions are being aired. It's the obvious sense of self-superiority some folks exhibit in expressing their views. That doesn't bug me that much, because at the end of the day they're only depriving themselves of good music (and good opinions!) with the obvious sense of closed superiority. I just think it's sad to see musicians -- artists -- be so closed-off to great stuff simply because it doesn't comport with their self-important opinions.

    Generally, I prefer discussions that aren't so didactic.

    But hey, it's their loss, not mine. <shrug> I regard open ears as the most important quality any musician can have. Just because something doesn't comport to my taste doesn't mean it sucks. De gustibum non disputandum.

  7. #281

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  8. #282
    A local keyboard player who plays with a national R&B act said to me " R&B is where all the Jazz Musicians hide out!"
    And while I'm fine with most styles of music including Pop. It's when the Music is so dumbed down on purpose not only to sell it. But when the musicians think it's Cool?

    The great musicians who played on those iconic Pop Hits of the past. They knew it was mostly polishing Turds! They just were great at making most of it as good as they were able. And every once in awhile they came up with great performances as well!

  9. #283

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
    It's not that differing opinions are being aired. It's the obvious sense of self-superiority some folks exhibit in expressing their views. That doesn't bug me that much, because at the end of the day they're only depriving themselves of good music (and good opinions!) with the obvious sense of closed superiority. I just think it's sad to see musicians -- artists -- be so closed-off to great stuff simply because it doesn't comport with their self-important opinions.

    Generally, I prefer discussions that aren't so didactic.

    But hey, it's their loss, not mine. <shrug> I regard open ears as the most important quality any musician can have. Just because something doesn't comport to my taste doesn't mean it sucks. De gustibum non disputandum.
    Hi, T,
    I think you're confusing "self-superiority" with one's firmly established aesthetic and lack of desire to revisit forms of music that they do not find interesting, challenging or to their personal taste. For example, why should I spend my valuable time listening to music I deem pedestrian, trendy, or lacking real artistry? And, if I find most contemporary Y2K Jazz/Classical not fulfilling my musical or personal needs, why not spend the rest of my life listening/playing the music that does: 50's-70's mainstream Jazz, Latin/Bossa, and 19th, early 20th Century European Classical Music? And, if I had three lifetimes, I could never really scratch the surface of the wealth of music that exists during those time periods. Does that make me a Luddite? Not at all . . . just someone who has little time to waste and still much to discover. So, T, it's your life, your choice but don't suffer from the illusion that everyone must enjoy the music you do and that it's "their loss, not mine." That certainly smacks of what you call the "obvious sense of self-superiority." Thanks for your honest response. Good playing . . . Marinero

  10. #284

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    That's all fine M. Just don't call me a one-eyed king in the land of the blind.

  11. #285

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    That's all fine M. Just don't call me a one-eyed king in the land of the blind.
    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed king has got to sleep sometime. Just sayin'.

  12. #286
    The difference is Jimi Hendrix and Jaco just like Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, were COOL! So was Steve McQueen and Paul Newman.
    Just about everything now in today's culture of music,arts,as well as food, ISN'T !

    There is probably COOL in technology and SCIENCE, but not the arts. When you need to shamelessly need to self promote how COOL you are, you are definitely NOT!
    And as Snobby and as it seems , you kids ain't even close!

    P.S. I'm in no way Cool, as the people I've aspired to be like musically,or otherwise.

  13. #287

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  14. #288

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    Nah, kids today just need us the music educators to be more patient and well.. educate instead of rambling how things are shittier today than in our day. It's true, the quality of music went down IMO, but show the kids the good times, good music that we had, you'll be surprised!

    In my school everyone is going crazy over TNT, I mean 8 year olds shouting 'TNT I'm dynamite...' with the teachers band, and love it! Yesterday I showed them Rock You Like A Hurricane, and they were like wow, that's cool, lets play it. So it'll be ok.

    Of course, many of you guys would say rock is subpar music as well, blah blah. Well, I'm still a teenager in my brain, and that's what I thought was great music, and more fun than jazz tbh. So I'm doing my bit in music education.

  15. #289

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    "A local keyboard player who plays with a national R&B act said to me " R&B is where all the Jazz Musicians hide out!"" JADS


    Hi, J,
    This was certainly the case when I was playing as a saxer. Auditions for gigs in those days were very competitive since many Jazzers could make a better living in R&B than in Jazz. And, the quality of groups was very high with horn bands like: Earth, Wind, and Fire; Blood, Sweat, and Tears; Chicago; Average White Band; Cold Blood; Ohio Players; James Brown; Sly and the Family Stone; Edgar Winter's White Trash, and the brashest sound of all:Tower of Power. Here's a taste of one of my favorites! Good playing . . . Marinero

    P.S. I chose this version for the better audio sound. Everyone in this band IS a Jazzer.

    https://youtu.be/jFD9mdh3mGc

  16. #290
    While Teaching is a fine profession per se. I think Music Schools turning out Jazz and Rock students as w ll as tech schools turning out rappers,etc. This is really a problem in a lot of ways.
    There really isn't a system of assimilation like other professions. Classical Orchestras may be the lone exception still. But even the Old Buddy Rich Big Bands are all But gone. And Rock and Pop have no such thing.

    So the student has no where to go but perhaps teach.And that is also falling by the way side now.
    There will always be superior music students who will find their way. But in general without a source of revenue Music and the Arts has always been a long shot at best,Unfortunately !

  17. #291

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    They all end up on YT playing covers of tunes in NYC apartments and so on...

    The explosive growth of the music education sector, and a shift towards a pedagogical approach to education - for instance in jazz education - is a symptom of a lack of performance opportunities. And I say that as a student of education.

    The main thing I learned from studying pedagogy is that we all do far too much of it...

  18. #292

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    They all end up on YT playing covers of tunes in NYC apartments and so on...

    The explosive growth of the music education sector, and a shift towards a pedagogical approach to education - for instance in jazz education - is a symptom of a lack of performance opportunities. And I say that as a student of education.

    The main thing I learned from studying pedagogy is that we all do far too much of it...

    Hi, C,
    I agree with everything except your last line. Theoretical pedagogy without a practical application serves no purpose--agreed. However, I could have never written arrangements for horn bands for years without my indispensable knowledge of Music Theory and Arranging/Composing.
    Good playing . . . Marinero

  19. #293
    There was an old adage those who can play do so, those who can't teach. And while things definitely changed so teaching became part of the players income in recent years. It still pretty much true.

    In other words gigs where were you not only made your living but learned repertoire and nescessary skills and styles to keep working. And as Ive said repeatedly in this thread, actual musicians are no longer needed. Especially when the public doesn't hear or care.

    As far as entertainers who can also play, thats strictly for their self enjoyment!

  20. #294

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, C,
    I agree with everything except your last line. Theoretical pedagogy without a practical application serves no purpose--agreed. However, I could have never written arrangements for horn bands for years without my indispensable knowledge of Music Theory and Arranging/Composing.
    Good playing . . . Marinero
    Yes, but that knowledge had an immediate application to stuff you were doing in the real world.

    People don't learn to play music in music schools. At best, they learn more things that can help them. But I think increasingly the perspective has shifted towards schools being the place where you learn to play.

    In general, the teacher's role is now even less than it was 'the custodian of the info' - attempts to cling on to that are understandable but rather sad. So that purely pedagogical role fades into the background. I think a lot of 70s jazz education had to make that case to become accepted by higher music education, even while Gary Burton et al obviously understood the real school was the bandstand. But things have moved on.

    For instance; I don't need to teach a student the melodic minor modes. Ever. It's no longer necessary in the 21st century. They know that stuff before they come to me.

    I need to tell them what to work on, maybe how to work on it. That's more a mutual exploration, much less top down than traditional pedagogy. Setting tasks, inviting and developing capacity for self reflection.

    In the traditional learning environment - this would happen on gigs. Now it's up to the teacher to create this to some extent.

  21. #295

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    There was an old adage those who can play do so, those who can't teach. And while things definitely changed so teaching became part of the players income in recent years. It still pretty much true.
    Teaching is a separate skill to doing, of course. A lot of music education is rather unsophisticated from a teaching perspective. The chops here are.... basic. Players aren't sophisticated educators necessarily.

    Teaching is a set of chops like anything else, and if you see a teacher with them, it's like seeing a good guitar player. If you know what to look for. Actually, I feel about experienced classroom teachers the way a lot of rock guitar players feel about jazz guitarists. Like... how?

    Anyway, as a paper I was reading points out, pretty much all name players on the international circuit hold down associate professorships. Hep to the Jive mentioned that John Patitucci was teaching at his community college. Try getting a teaching gig around NYC. Not happening.

    Aside from the European tours, it's presumably the thing that keeps the NYC players in NYC. It certainly isn't the $30 gigs.

  22. #296

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    "In the traditional learning environment - this would happen on gigs. Now it's up to the teacher to create this to some extent." Christian


    Sadly, C . . . this IS the reality. Good playing . . . Marinero

  23. #297

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, T,
    I think you're confusing "self-superiority" with one's firmly established aesthetic and lack of desire to revisit forms of music that they do not find interesting, challenging or to their personal taste. For example, why should I spend my valuable time listening to music I deem pedestrian, trendy, or lacking real artistry? And, if I find most contemporary Y2K Jazz/Classical not fulfilling my musical or personal needs, why not spend the rest of my life listening/playing the music that does: 50's-70's mainstream Jazz, Latin/Bossa, and 19th, early 20th Century European Classical Music? And, if I had three lifetimes, I could never really scratch the surface of the wealth of music that exists during those time periods. Does that make me a Luddite? Not at all . . . just someone who has little time to waste and still much to discover.
    And that's fine. I have my own tastes, and much music, both modern and old, doesn't satisfy my tastes. No one is calling you any names like "luddite" or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    So, T, it's your life, your choice but don't suffer from the illusion that everyone must enjoy the music you do and that it's "their loss, not mine." That certainly smacks of what you call the "obvious sense of self-superiority." Thanks for your honest response. Good playing . . . Marinero
    No, I'm not saying my taste is regnant, I'm saying that writing something off immediately because it's "new" or "pop" or whatever other adjective you prefer to use is silly. It's music. You either like it or you don't. If you filter your own tastes through the necessary skillsets required to play it, great. I've found great songs that are terribly simple (early Beatles is a great reminder on this score), and challenging songs that bore me to tears.

    This is because technical adeptness is not the same as enjoyability.

    As a result, when I don't care for a song, I don't start a thread about how modern music sucks. I just move on to the next thing and try to find something good about it. It is not an arrogant approach at all; it's an approach that says "you should listen to what others like and maybe find something you like in it as well." It's a subtle but distinct difference. I'm not better or worse than you for holding this opinion, but I do think that those who think that all the best music has already been written are robbing themselves of valuable music.

    If someone only listens to the music of their youth, on the general principle that it was all better back in the yore, it is indeed their loss. That's not me demanding agreement, that's me pointing out that they may not know wtf they're talking about.

    If you don't like a song I like, I sure don't care. I don't know you from a can of paint. But I can certainly criticize an attitude that asserts modern music being unmusical, or stupid, or whatever the OP's gripe is (I suspect his gripe is that it isn't the music of his adolescence.) There's good and shitty modern music. There's good and shitty old music. Anyone who looks at era and provenance before actually listening to the music is probably not tuned into musicality, I think. There's good stuff in all eras and all genres.

    Whether someone shares my taste or not is irrelevant. But I think shortly of people who write off entire fields because it doesn't comport to their taste. For instance, I detest opera. I detest it. I love the music, but the overwrought vocals absolutely put me off. I would never say that opera is bullshit, or that my preferred music is superior. That's because I understand that 1) it takes talent and 2) that my taste is only that: my taste.

    OP says he's worked for plenty of name artists. I don't know if that is or isn't the case. I don't care, either. That makes him a musician, same as me. Trying to grab high ground and claim superiority is what I'm objecting to here.

    If you need further help in understanding my point, just let me know. I can give you five or six thousand words on why artistic snobbery is stupid. As I wrote above: De gustibum non disputandum. Your taste, and my taste, is no better than anyone else's taste, because ... wait for it ... we like what we like.

    We clear now?

  24. #298

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    That Scofield guy also has been teaching for ages ... Dunno .. His playing career probably didn't recover from losing that Miles Davis gig ...
    Well, he never got his alternate picking together, so what do you expect.

    In seriousness, this actually speaks to a deep problem, which is outside NYC, and maybe like Ronnie Scott's in London which is the tourist industry, most of the money coming into jazz is from education.

    That's a problem, but it's not really MY problem. I have no desire to get involved in policy. (OTOH Jazz is actually pretty popular among younger people if you count, Thundercat, Snarky Puppy, Kamasi etc.)

    I just want to do the best my my students in the situation I find ourselves in. And that in part is becoming advocates for the music...

    Of course the present situation aside, I'd like to note that Lennie Tristano, Barry Harris, Warne Marsh and George Van Eps were all by that old adage - 'those who can't'







    (jk)

  25. #299

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  26. #300

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