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  1. #301

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus View Post
    It's not that differing opinions are being aired. It's the obvious sense of self-superiority some folks exhibit in expressing their views. That doesn't bug me that much, because at the end of the day they're only depriving themselves of good music (and good opinions!) with the obvious sense of closed superiority. I just think it's sad to see musicians -- artists -- be so closed-off to great stuff simply because it doesn't comport with their self-important opinions.

    Generally, I prefer discussions that aren't so didactic.

    But hey, it's their loss, not mine. <shrug> I regard open ears as the most important quality any musician can have. Just because something doesn't comport to my taste doesn't mean it sucks. De gustibum non disputandum.
    Hi, T,
    I think you're confusing "self-superiority" with one's firmly established aesthetic and lack of desire to revisit forms of music that they do not find interesting, challenging or to their personal taste. For example, why should I spend my valuable time listening to music I deem pedestrian, trendy, or lacking real artistry? And, if I find most contemporary Y2K Jazz/Classical not fulfilling my musical or personal needs, why not spend the rest of my life listening/playing the music that does: 50's-70's mainstream Jazz, Latin/Bossa, and 19th, early 20th Century European Classical Music? And, if I had three lifetimes, I could never really scratch the surface of the wealth of music that exists during those time periods. Does that make me a Luddite? Not at all . . . just someone who has little time to waste and still much to discover. So, T, it's your life, your choice but don't suffer from the illusion that everyone must enjoy the music you do and that it's "their loss, not mine." That certainly smacks of what you call the "obvious sense of self-superiority." Thanks for your honest response. Good playing . . . Marinero

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  3. #302

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    That's all fine M. Just don't call me a one-eyed king in the land of the blind.

  4. #303

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft View Post
    That's all fine M. Just don't call me a one-eyed king in the land of the blind.
    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed king has got to sleep sometime. Just sayin'.

  5. #304
    The difference is Jimi Hendrix and Jaco just like Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, were COOL! So was Steve McQueen and Paul Newman.
    Just about everything now in today's culture of music,arts,as well as food, ISN'T !

    There is probably COOL in technology and SCIENCE, but not the arts. When you need to shamelessly need to self promote how COOL you are, you are definitely NOT!
    And as Snobby and as it seems , you kids ain't even close!

    P.S. I'm in no way Cool, as the people I've aspired to be like musically,or otherwise.

  6. #305

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  7. #306

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    Nah, kids today just need us the music educators to be more patient and well.. educate instead of rambling how things are shittier today than in our day. It's true, the quality of music went down IMO, but show the kids the good times, good music that we had, you'll be surprised!

    In my school everyone is going crazy over TNT, I mean 8 year olds shouting 'TNT I'm dynamite...' with the teachers band, and love it! Yesterday I showed them Rock You Like A Hurricane, and they were like wow, that's cool, lets play it. So it'll be ok.

    Of course, many of you guys would say rock is subpar music as well, blah blah. Well, I'm still a teenager in my brain, and that's what I thought was great music, and more fun than jazz tbh. So I'm doing my bit in music education.

  8. #307

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    "A local keyboard player who plays with a national R&B act said to me " R&B is where all the Jazz Musicians hide out!"" JADS


    Hi, J,
    This was certainly the case when I was playing as a saxer. Auditions for gigs in those days were very competitive since many Jazzers could make a better living in R&B than in Jazz. And, the quality of groups was very high with horn bands like: Earth, Wind, and Fire; Blood, Sweat, and Tears; Chicago; Average White Band; Cold Blood; Ohio Players; James Brown; Sly and the Family Stone; Edgar Winter's White Trash, and the brashest sound of all:Tower of Power. Here's a taste of one of my favorites! Good playing . . . Marinero

    P.S. I chose this version for the better audio sound. Everyone in this band IS a Jazzer.

    https://youtu.be/jFD9mdh3mGc

  9. #308
    While Teaching is a fine profession per se. I think Music Schools turning out Jazz and Rock students as w ll as tech schools turning out rappers,etc. This is really a problem in a lot of ways.
    There really isn't a system of assimilation like other professions. Classical Orchestras may be the lone exception still. But even the Old Buddy Rich Big Bands are all But gone. And Rock and Pop have no such thing.

    So the student has no where to go but perhaps teach.And that is also falling by the way side now.
    There will always be superior music students who will find their way. But in general without a source of revenue Music and the Arts has always been a long shot at best,Unfortunately !

  10. #309

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    They all end up on YT playing covers of tunes in NYC apartments and so on...

    The explosive growth of the music education sector, and a shift towards a pedagogical approach to education - for instance in jazz education - is a symptom of a lack of performance opportunities. And I say that as a student of education.

    The main thing I learned from studying pedagogy is that we all do far too much of it...

  11. #310

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    They all end up on YT playing covers of tunes in NYC apartments and so on...

    The explosive growth of the music education sector, and a shift towards a pedagogical approach to education - for instance in jazz education - is a symptom of a lack of performance opportunities. And I say that as a student of education.

    The main thing I learned from studying pedagogy is that we all do far too much of it...

    Hi, C,
    I agree with everything except your last line. Theoretical pedagogy without a practical application serves no purpose--agreed. However, I could have never written arrangements for horn bands for years without my indispensable knowledge of Music Theory and Arranging/Composing.
    Good playing . . . Marinero

  12. #311
    There was an old adage those who can play do so, those who can't teach. And while things definitely changed so teaching became part of the players income in recent years. It still pretty much true.

    In other words gigs where were you not only made your living but learned repertoire and nescessary skills and styles to keep working. And as Ive said repeatedly in this thread, actual musicians are no longer needed. Especially when the public doesn't hear or care.

    As far as entertainers who can also play, thats strictly for their self enjoyment!

  13. #312

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57 View Post
    There was an old adage those who can play do so, those who can't teach!

    So who many iterations starting with "Those who can teach do so, those who can't ...." do you have to go thru before you end with "... those who can't complain on the internet" ?

  14. #313

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero View Post
    Hi, C,
    I agree with everything except your last line. Theoretical pedagogy without a practical application serves no purpose--agreed. However, I could have never written arrangements for horn bands for years without my indispensable knowledge of Music Theory and Arranging/Composing.
    Good playing . . . Marinero
    Yes, but that knowledge had an immediate application to stuff you were doing in the real world.

    People don't learn to play music in music schools. At best, they learn more things that can help them. But I think increasingly the perspective has shifted towards schools being the place where you learn to play.

    In general, the teacher's role is now even less than it was 'the custodian of the info' - attempts to cling on to that are understandable but rather sad. So that purely pedagogical role fades into the background. I think a lot of 70s jazz education had to make that case to become accepted by higher music education, even while Gary Burton et al obviously understood the real school was the bandstand. But things have moved on.

    For instance; I don't need to teach a student the melodic minor modes. Ever. It's no longer necessary in the 21st century. They know that stuff before they come to me.

    I need to tell them what to work on, maybe how to work on it. That's more a mutual exploration, much less top down than traditional pedagogy. Setting tasks, inviting and developing capacity for self reflection.

    In the traditional learning environment - this would happen on gigs. Now it's up to the teacher to create this to some extent.

  15. #314

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57 View Post
    There was an old adage those who can play do so, those who can't teach. And while things definitely changed so teaching became part of the players income in recent years. It still pretty much true.
    Teaching is a separate skill to doing, of course. A lot of music education is rather unsophisticated from a teaching perspective. The chops here are.... basic. Players aren't sophisticated educators necessarily.

    Teaching is a set of chops like anything else, and if you see a teacher with them, it's like seeing a good guitar player. If you know what to look for. Actually, I feel about experienced classroom teachers the way a lot of rock guitar players feel about jazz guitarists. Like... how?

    Anyway, as a paper I was reading points out, pretty much all name players on the international circuit hold down associate professorships. Hep to the Jive mentioned that John Patitucci was teaching at his community college. Try getting a teaching gig around NYC. Not happening.

    Aside from the European tours, it's presumably the thing that keeps the NYC players in NYC. It certainly isn't the $30 gigs.

  16. #315

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    "In the traditional learning environment - this would happen on gigs. Now it's up to the teacher to create this to some extent." Christian


    Sadly, C . . . this IS the reality. Good playing . . . Marinero

  17. #316

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    pretty much all name players on the international circuit hold down associate professorships. Hep to the Jive mentioned that John Patitucci was teaching at his community college. Try getting a teaching gig around NYC. Not happening.

    That Scofield guy also has been teaching for ages ... Dunno .. His playing career probably didn't recover from losing that Miles Davis gig ...

  18. #317

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero View Post
    Hi, T,
    I think you're confusing "self-superiority" with one's firmly established aesthetic and lack of desire to revisit forms of music that they do not find interesting, challenging or to their personal taste. For example, why should I spend my valuable time listening to music I deem pedestrian, trendy, or lacking real artistry? And, if I find most contemporary Y2K Jazz/Classical not fulfilling my musical or personal needs, why not spend the rest of my life listening/playing the music that does: 50's-70's mainstream Jazz, Latin/Bossa, and 19th, early 20th Century European Classical Music? And, if I had three lifetimes, I could never really scratch the surface of the wealth of music that exists during those time periods. Does that make me a Luddite? Not at all . . . just someone who has little time to waste and still much to discover.
    And that's fine. I have my own tastes, and much music, both modern and old, doesn't satisfy my tastes. No one is calling you any names like "luddite" or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero View Post
    So, T, it's your life, your choice but don't suffer from the illusion that everyone must enjoy the music you do and that it's "their loss, not mine." That certainly smacks of what you call the "obvious sense of self-superiority." Thanks for your honest response. Good playing . . . Marinero
    No, I'm not saying my taste is regnant, I'm saying that writing something off immediately because it's "new" or "pop" or whatever other adjective you prefer to use is silly. It's music. You either like it or you don't. If you filter your own tastes through the necessary skillsets required to play it, great. I've found great songs that are terribly simple (early Beatles is a great reminder on this score), and challenging songs that bore me to tears.

    This is because technical adeptness is not the same as enjoyability.

    As a result, when I don't care for a song, I don't start a thread about how modern music sucks. I just move on to the next thing and try to find something good about it. It is not an arrogant approach at all; it's an approach that says "you should listen to what others like and maybe find something you like in it as well." It's a subtle but distinct difference. I'm not better or worse than you for holding this opinion, but I do think that those who think that all the best music has already been written are robbing themselves of valuable music.

    If someone only listens to the music of their youth, on the general principle that it was all better back in the yore, it is indeed their loss. That's not me demanding agreement, that's me pointing out that they may not know wtf they're talking about.

    If you don't like a song I like, I sure don't care. I don't know you from a can of paint. But I can certainly criticize an attitude that asserts modern music being unmusical, or stupid, or whatever the OP's gripe is (I suspect his gripe is that it isn't the music of his adolescence.) There's good and shitty modern music. There's good and shitty old music. Anyone who looks at era and provenance before actually listening to the music is probably not tuned into musicality, I think. There's good stuff in all eras and all genres.

    Whether someone shares my taste or not is irrelevant. But I think shortly of people who write off entire fields because it doesn't comport to their taste. For instance, I detest opera. I detest it. I love the music, but the overwrought vocals absolutely put me off. I would never say that opera is bullshit, or that my preferred music is superior. That's because I understand that 1) it takes talent and 2) that my taste is only that: my taste.

    OP says he's worked for plenty of name artists. I don't know if that is or isn't the case. I don't care, either. That makes him a musician, same as me. Trying to grab high ground and claim superiority is what I'm objecting to here.

    If you need further help in understanding my point, just let me know. I can give you five or six thousand words on why artistic snobbery is stupid. As I wrote above: De gustibum non disputandum. Your taste, and my taste, is no better than anyone else's taste, because ... wait for it ... we like what we like.

    We clear now?

  19. #318

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov View Post
    That Scofield guy also has been teaching for ages ... Dunno .. His playing career probably didn't recover from losing that Miles Davis gig ...
    Well, he never got his alternate picking together, so what do you expect.

    In seriousness, this actually speaks to a deep problem, which is outside NYC, and maybe like Ronnie Scott's in London which is the tourist industry, most of the money coming into jazz is from education.

    That's a problem, but it's not really MY problem. I have no desire to get involved in policy. (OTOH Jazz is actually pretty popular among younger people if you count, Thundercat, Snarky Puppy, Kamasi etc.)

    I just want to do the best my my students in the situation I find ourselves in. And that in part is becoming advocates for the music...

    Of course the present situation aside, I'd like to note that Lennie Tristano, Barry Harris, Warne Marsh and George Van Eps were all by that old adage - 'those who can't'







    (jk)

  20. #319

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  21. #320

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  22. #321

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  23. #322
    Guys like Scofield and Gary Burton came up in the mid to late 1960s. Berklee wasn't the McDonald's Guitar School it later became. The players were prepared before they went to College. The music bar was much higher and Jazz Pedagogy and a disciplined reading program were the rule.

    I attended a semester in 1975 when it became a more Guitar centered profit making school. I was not prepared and quickly realized it was not the approach that worked for me. The good news was Gary Burton and his Quintet w Pat Metheny etc. played regularly as well as Jazz Greats at the Jazz Workshop. And there was a great local scene in Boston for many scenes.

    There were younger players who already could play well. But I would say the majority of guitarists were pretty weak like me at the time

    Again teaching became nescessary for players as part of income but not usually full time. It only was if you had a College degree already, and that wasn't the majority of players back then, even the serious pros as well.
    It's only in the past 20 years or so has this become more normalized. And that's because of all of the students attending music schools. And from my experience many of them can't Swing or Groove well at all.

    My feeling is that can't be taught, you either get it or don't And most musicians along with listening to others is were they are weakest.
    On the other hand many non schooled musicians I've worked with get this part,but lack the reading or versatility of repertoire skills.
    And now that it's strictly the Look part it really isn't music ability that gets you work. But that has been true since the Beatles at least.

  24. #323

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    Scofield is all about the bears now.

  25. #324

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    "If you need further help in understanding my point, just let me know. I can give you five or six thousand words on why artistic snobbery is stupid. As I wrote above: De gustibum non disputandum. Your taste, and my taste, is no better than anyone else's taste, because ... wait for it ... we like what we like.

    We clear now?" Thump



    Hi, T,
    Your above narrative was logical until it quickly unraveled when you said: "I can give you five or six thousand words on why artistic snobbery is stupid." You seem to equate those who have a better understanding and knowledge of a subject as "snobbery" when it is simply a higher level of exposure and expertise. For example, if a student studies physics in high school but cannot understand Quantum Mechanics, would he/she call Einstein, Fenyman, Oppenheimer, or Hawking a "physics snob?" And, if the current level of theoretical Physics has stalled in its creativity, vision and direction in comparison to the level of these luminaries, should we pretend that it still has the same health and vigor that it did in the past? And, to return to Music, should we then deem contemporary Music profound, interesting, and creative just because it it "new" or "modern." These premises would easily fail Philosophy 101 and should be left to other arenas of discussion with less demanding standards. Thanks for your reply. Good playing . . . Marinero

  26. #325

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb300 View Post
    s

    Nice Old School R&B licks on the guitar, T! Good playing . . . Marinero

  27. #326

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    Hi, Tony,
    Loved your first video but if Aaradhna is R&B by today's standards . . . I'll eat my pet canary. . . well, not really since I don't have a pet canary. Good playing . . . Marinero

  28. #327

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    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu View Post
    Scofield is all about the bears now.


    Great video, E,
    As a hunter/fly fisherman in Northern Wisconsin/Michigan for over 30 years, this man is a Fu--ing idiot! Firstly, animals are not humans . . . they're animals. They operate under a different understanding of the world--both natural and human than we do. Secondly, the first rule you learn in Bear Country is to never get between a sow and her cub(s) and, if you see them, leave the area as quickly as possible. Any misunderstanding of your intentions can lead to a serious mauling or death. It was obvious when he got between the mother and cub that the cub became frightened when it climbed the tree and the sow became nervous and agitated. He's lucky it ended well.
    There's a strange notion that exists by some naive souls that believe wild carnivores in their natural environment want familiarity with humans. This could not be further from the case and is sadly promoted by those with little or no knowledge of animal behavior. The animals lives are centered around predator/prey consciousness and the desire to kill as often as possible to fulfill their caloric requirements. Simple. This was glaringly demonstrated when Timothy Treadwell "Grizzly Man" was killed and partially eaten by a Grizzly bear during the time he spent making a documentary film about the bears and how he believed he had the ability to be accepted by the bears. After his death, the video was found at the kill site of the attack. Good playing . . . Marinero

    Last edited by Marinero; 05-25-2020 at 11:17 AM. Reason: deletion

  29. #328

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    Oh.. thanks for the info. That was interesting. I only meant that the first man who spoke looked and sounded like Scofield, thats all

    I am proud for this derail though

  30. #329

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  31. #330

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  32. #331
    Barney Kessel at his best imo. I've learned a lot about harmony and shore subs from this recording as well as Howard Roberts on the subsequent Julie is her Name vol 2 recordings. Highly Recommended !

  33. #332

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    "Wake me up","Levels", "Hey brother" by Avicii - If anyone could do any better right now, you'd be livin in a mansion instead ... whatever you're doing right now.
    The point is not to hype Avicii. My point is someone can do this multiple times. If that's happening, it's not just luck. Could bitch all the day but can you beat that?

  34. #333

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    Also Mumford son's "The Cave". A beatiful new thing. It's my trump card to make the students get a better grade for 3rd years exam. They didn't know what hit them.

  35. #334

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    This piece is pretty perfect as it is. I like it a lot better than the final product. Now, the question - how could you make it better with natural instruments? I'd be sounding like '60 Bond movie track... or hm.. any thoughts?

  36. #335

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    All you need to conquer the world are 3 chords



    Fond memories of a time where my kids where tiny ... Music is hard to quantify .. No swing, only 3 chords and yet people loved this



  37. #336

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  38. #337

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    Yeah, what a challenge would it be - the least notes to do something meaningful.

  39. #338

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    This is a masterpiece of modern pop .. ballad? or what? in 60's or 70', whats like it?


    Don't watch it. The video is a disgrace. But it's unique, deserves to be out there.

  40. #339

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    This new ipad ipod chick can sing a song if she wants: