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  1. #51

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    tbh I do think there are problems with modern music. I think contemporary music always does best when it says ‘screw you’ and embraces a new aesthetic.

    so if the new aesthetic is digital, that means are moving away from some of the aspects of analog and ‘people playing proper instruments’ era...

    but there is still huge nostalgia even for those too young to remember it... in fact some of the sequences sounds - 808s and so on - are themselves vintage. Genuinely new digital sounds are perhaps rarer than it might seem.

    so it’s sort of uneasy. Bruno Mars is a case in point (and I like him.)

    also instrumentalists are absorbing programmed music/EDM aesthetics into their playing. Mark Guliana is a good example in the jazz sphere. My impression is guitarists are sort of stuck. We’ve had our day in the sun.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    I have always said there is great music from every era, you just have to know where to find it.

    Brittany Howard, D’Angelico, Kendrick Lamar, Nathaniel Rateliff, Brenda Carlisle, Wilco, Jason Isbell immediately come to mind. And Gillian and Dave.

    Re’ Cage the Elephant—like their recordings, but saw them at an outdoor venue with the Black Keys, and they played excessively loud, and their performance was way too punky. And I know from punk.

    The problem is that pop music in general has migrated toward a real rut, where there are banal melodies, annoying production techniques and a real lack of variety. My GF put on Taylor Swift last night and remarked, “why is she the biggest musician in the world right now? I don’t get it.” And Taylor is pretty talented and not the worst of the lot, really.

    The worst sins in my opinion are overproduction and overwriting. Yes, Uptown Funk is fun, but every other song that mines that groove is horrible and derivative. And Prince did it himself and 10 times better 40 years ago.

    There is something about the songwriting that I have a hard time putting my finger on. You listen to even trivial stuff from the 60’s by Dionne Warwick or Lulu or the Association...there is such a craft evident, and the melodies are SO MEMORABLE. (I bet you are all humming Do You Know the Way to San Jose and Wendy right now...)

    You play a modern pop song by Taylor or Katy Perry or Bruno Mars, and I challenge you to hum it even 5 minutes later. They are so, so unmemorable. Tin Pan Alley has become a Tin Pan graveyard.

  4. #53

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    If we look at music from its most elementary point, we must look to melody. This, of course, is the origin of all music that began around the campfires of primordial Man. Songs were sung that celebrated Life, Death, Happiness, Sorrow and Loss or even the retelling of important events in the group. They were clearly recognizable and capable of being sung by all members of the group. And, when a song was popular it was because it had an enchanting melody and profound words expressing some aspect of life. So, melody and lyrics go hand in hand.
    And, of course, we must look to originality. Is this song a rehash of other songs or is it unique? When we discover a beautiful melody, enchanting lyrics it is because they have an air of originality that other songs do not possess. Both melody and lyrics are memorable. So, when we listen to the above "song" what do we get? Enchanting melody, lyrics, or originality? No, we get none of these qualities.
    So, if an average English speaking person listened to this song, he/she might get 50% of the "lyrics." I got a few:
    "She's endangered," "Playing with toys," "blowing up the mountain," "ugly strangers," "watch a caravan fly." So, if using my above definition, how are these lyrics "recognizable and capable of being sung by all members of the group?" I had no idea what she was singing about other than some obtuse stream of consciousness in her mind. Secondly, is the melody "memorable?" Could you hum it to yourself on the way to work? And, does it have an "air of originality?" when the music sounds like some old George Duke piano licks from the 70's/80's and a predictable and banal trumpet solo reminiscent of Miles after he lost his mind. So, when Jads makes a point that there hasn't been any serious music written in 50 years and if we use this as an example, is he wrong? We all must be open-minded BUT, we must have standard from which to judge and if we compare the standards written 50 years ago to the tripe today, there is no comparison for the musically sophisticated ear. So, here's Little Jimmy Scott singing one of those old songs. What do you think? Good playing . . . Marinero


  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    You play a modern pop song by Taylor or Katy Perry or Bruno Mars, and I challenge you to hum it even 5 minutes later. They are so, so unmemorable. Tin Pan Alley has become a Tin Pan graveyard.

    I typed this out for my own sake, but will just leave it here. Unlike my previous comments in this thread, this one is not sarcastic, but serious enough and up for debate



    Tin pan alley
    You're talking about a business that made it's money from sheet music. Something people actually played ... also a lot of those great american songs, where from musicals shows where people would sit in a theater for a couple of hours immersed in a story. Given that amplification wasn't really a thing songs and singing ensured that you could reach the audience in the back row.

    A time where you basically had to buy sheet music and play the song four handed with aunt Wilma at the piano. You and Wilma banging out I IV vi V end up being boring. Also not being able to listen to the songs on a device or the radio meant that you had to have something that made you want to sing it.

    So all of it is based around performance or theater shows.


    But off course you also had plenty of drinking music based around 3 chords and a dirty lyric, but that was never sold as sheet music, so it's not reallly remembered equally well. But you know, music as background to people having fun. Not much "fun" in a theater, no?


    From then to now
    So what happened is that recorded and amplification appears. So you don't need to someone to perform to enjoy music and you no longer need a large orchestra to make enough noise to entertain a lot of people. So the "fun" music can suddenly reach a wide audience.


    Now

    The thing about Jads is that he is seeing music thru his eye, which are those of a performer. What is fun to play and not what is great to listen to. When you lament the death of Tin Pan Alley, if is also mainly thru the eyes of a performer. But the thing is in my view that music isn't about technical proficiency or complexity. It is 100% about emotional response and inspiration.



    When you're in this setting



    What you're looking for is something totally different than when you're in this setting



    Use of music
    To me this entire discussion totally ignores that music has a function in peoples lives. It's just boo hoo hoo, everything was better in the old days, while basically only mentioning Jazz, Hendrix and 60/70s black music (in other words stuff that is rooted in blues and jazz and still harmonically complex). Oh yeah and then there is The Beatles as an honorable mention, where we forget all the fluff they released from 62-65.

    So what are the functions of music?


    Escapism
    This is the main purpose of broadway shows or 40s musicals. To sit for couple of hours and get away from a dreary daily life. It's also the function of symphonies and concertos. In the lack of better you close you eyes and try to get away from being you for a while.

    What other means of escapism did they have in the old days? .. Books off course, but that demands that you enjoy reading or at least that you're litterate .. or at least oral storytelling. But that is it.


    These days escapism has a broader range. You've got movies and series on demand. You don't need to go to a musical. Just pop on Netflix and enjoy 5 seasons of your favorite show. And as Christian said, there are video games. Grand adventure that you can be a part of. The top post on Reddit a few days ago was this trailer on the next Assassin's Creed game. It surpassed politics, pandemic and what not





    In other words music's market share with regards to escapism is severely reduced ... Thus the need for those grand symphonic pieces is lessoned. Not really my thing, but I'm sure there are composers that to this day still compose great symphonies operas musicals and themed albums. We just don't need them as much as previously.


    What we need (Why humming a song matters little)
    Whether you can hum a tune or not is really irrelevant. Cos these days you can just play it on your musical device. Stuff can sound great despite not being hummable.

    But what functions do we need apart from escapism.

    Fun and dancing
    When out on town we need music that facilitates sexual excitement. The music you can't hum isn't designed for that purpose. It's designed to set the stage where boy and girls have a good time and maybe end up attracted to each other. Have you ever had a women get all moist to a Tin Pan Alley tune. Funny thing tho. That tune you can't hum is probably going to be their song play at their wedding and probably at their 25th anniversary. I see that as a bigger accomplishment that satisfying Jads or yours aesthetical preferences.


    Dealing with injustice and letting off steam
    Songs from the old days that weren't pretty but served a purpose




    I could off course also place a zillion of the 3 chords protest songs from the 60s where, but being Gen-X it's too much before my time.


    Keeping yourself going
    Whether working, running or whatever, where you need to push forward in the face of tiredness or other adversity simpler tracks with a steady beat work much better than a lot 'better' songs.



    And so on and so on and so on ..... This post is far too long already.


    My point (or summary)
    To sum up, music in it self is never good or bad. It is and has always been part of people and the times. You can't make a piece of music that is in it self is great and will always function no matter when or who you play it for. Music serves a purpose, has a function or is a statement.


    Epilogue
    Would I be taken seriously if I posted that no modern clothes look good? (Do you still dress like the this Jads? .. It would match your taste in music)

    Last edited by Lobomov; 05-02-2020 at 12:52 PM.

  6. #55

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    ‘I look so pretty I could kiss myself, gonna give the colour red the blues’

  7. #56

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    Dismaying how a thread like this attracts so much attention while other members of this forum are posting some great original music with practically zero feedback. Now, that could be something to "rant" about.

  8. #57
    Agreed with above statement . My gripe is it's all older been done music which is wonderful! Where are the New Artists that will add to the Great American Songbook? My generation had it's writers like Stevie, Lennon & McCartney, etc.

    I haven't heard any from the younger generations since the advent of the IPhone or dare I mention Internet.
    I'm comparing this because since it was touted as a great freedom for artist's. I don't see it that way at all. I see as freedom for posers to sell their crap and if it gets enough Likes,etc it's considered professional.

    Further contend since the demise of actually paying musicians,arrangers, etc. That this has kept many pros from contributing their abilities. This along with all of the computer assisted loops,drop ins,etc.
    So I think the amateurs have taken over, and for the WORSE!

  9. #58

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    Who cares about 'original' music, when you can do so much with tunes people know:

  10. #59

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    A few computer music pieces with a bit of "soul" (thats only in my opinion, of course.)







    Computers are AWESOME

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    Expecting musicians to starve for their art is just asinine. Sane ones produce music that sells. Jazz does not sell, and it's difficult, if even possible, to make a living just playing jazz. 90 or 100 years ago it might have been possible, but not in the last 50 or so. The number of musicians who make a good living doing nothing but playing jazz is vanishingly small. Jazz is not popular music, it's a small niche market. We may play jazz for the love of it, but not many on this forum actually make a living doing it. The number is not zero, but it's very small. Slagging anyone for making good money by producing non-jazz music is not something I consider right. I may not listen to it, but I don't condemn it. My idea of good music is not the standard everyone is required to meet. Rent has to be paid, food has to be bought, and baby needs new shoes.
    Fuckin' A. If you're paying your mortgage with your music, it may or may not say anything about your music, don't know and don't care, but it does say something: you're not balancing the books at a gas station to feed yourself, and that's more than I can say for myself.

    I would love to clear an honest living making music and doing nothing else. Like many here, that ain't happening for me. Spitting on them who do just strikes me as churlish.

    We can have a discussion about the quality of that music another time. But it's easy to be a snob from the bedroom.

  12. #61

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    Yeah, but "musical abilities" is such a wide term.

    My case - I have no artistic characteristics and I suck at keeping good rhythm. All I am good for is figuring out good notes. This ain't gonna sell today anywhere. Does that mean every person who can boss around and play everywhere is a better musician than me?
    Probably certainly yes. But I like what I can do and am able to be happy here. So are so many people of those 7,000,000,000 living around, doing different things in music. Who exactly are you blaming for not amusing you the right way? Searching for likable stuff is so easy these days.

  13. #62

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    The music business is not like it used to be, and it never was. It has been evolving and changing for as long as there has been anything like a music business. It's always changing. Once one made a living by having a rich patron hire you at his palace. Later one wrote sheet music sold in stores. Then the recording industry started, and things changed constantly. Now recording companies are scrambling to stay in business, and artists are creating their own recordings, with the equipment being easily and cheaply available. The quality of music has always been highly variable, some divine, some lame, and most somewhere in between. That goes for every music genre. Taste changes, and quickly. My taste is pretty well stuck far in the past, but I won't quarrel with those who prefer more modern music. I don't have to listen to what I don't like, at least not for very long. Whether I like a particular song or not does not determine whether or not it's good or bad. Same for all the music being produced.

  14. #63

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    After teaching for 15 years in music schools (about 200 students), the taste... damn. There is no universal "taste" nowadays. This is the only fact in music left at all.
    I do remember liking the same things as my friends when 10-20 years old. But only because there was so little of it (new). Now, omg! The students rarely share enthusiasm to a particular piece.
    And lately, for a few years, they offer songs that are NOT from the common dumb stream for the masses.

    The "business" is something else. Hell with the business

  15. #64

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    ..no words

  16. #65

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    In major cities there are still radio stations that use computer driven play lists of past popular songs and artists..I hung out in a coffee shop that had progressive rock/jazz/classical music playing over their sound system..they changed that to a "top 20" format station..why..they said customers didnt like jazz/classical...so you could hear Hotel California twice in the same hour if you stayed there that long..I found a different coffee bar..!!

    I understand the outlook about the quality of todays music vs back in the day..when I teach "kids" .. they want to learn,,how to play fast..some know how to play Steve Vai solos but dont know basic blues progressions or chords..and for me the fustrating part..they dont want to know

    I listen to quite a few different types of music..and like some of it (Sat Radio) I dont go down memory lane with music..I have heard enough 60's music and the musicians and the way people still romanticize it ...alot of it was awful...

    There were some very talented groups and some great songs ...and if you look/listen to varied stations you may find some gems being played by todays musicians..hey you have to look beyond pop stations..college stations and public radio has a wealth of "new" music and some of it is very good..

    we are not in a vacuum of no talent..and there are musicians/groups making a living and doing world tours and appearing on late night TV and have a loyal following of fans..and many have never heard of them because they may not have a "pop" hit on MSM radio stations..

    there is an abundance of talented guitarists playing all styles of music and some are technically mind blowing.. Matt Mancuso comes to mind and many others that are not on MSM so many have not heard of them...Eric Johnson has been touring for 20+ years and few know his work...he is an amazing player...

    Music schools are turning out super talented musicians every year and many choose not to go the MSM route...we must remember today a 12 yr old can create play record and market their music on the Net without leaving their bed room...and have a following of tens of thousands...a traditional record company cannot do that without spending many thousands..Yes its a very different world..and welcome to it..as Bobby sang..the times they are a changin..

    as for not likeing the general publics taste in ANY mass consumed form..be it art fashion film music food trends etc..they will always outnumber those that create it and few will understand it and the sad part of this is few will even notice or care...

    I would like a far more perfect world..and many other would also...some years back a group called Yatch..had a tune with a "hook".."I thought the future would be cooler.." ahhh..so did I..so did I..

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    But come on where's the Music that challenges us or is even worthy of considering on the same level! I say there are not the $$ to support such adventures anymore. Say what you will but Charlie Parker ,Jimi Hendrix, Jaco Pastorius, Sting, were all signed to major labels and had financial backing an insight to their musical abilities! What happened?
    You realize that downloading and streaming have changed the business model, right? You may as well lament the extinction of the dodo.

    And quite frankly, for every Jimi or Jaco, how many Archies or Bay City Rollers did we have to suffer? Record companies didn't give much of a damn about quality. They wanted "radio-friendly unit-shifters". If by chance there was some quality in the tracks, that was incidental.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    [...] ...so you could hear Hotel California twice in the same hour if you stayed there that long..[...]


    What'd they play in the remaining four minutes?
    Last edited by Thumpalumpacus; 05-03-2020 at 08:38 PM.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    Who cares about 'original' music, when you can do so much with tunes people know:

    Hi, SG,
    You're right! I played R&B, Funk and Jazz/Rock during the 60's/70's in Chicago's lounges, bars, restaurants, hotels, colleges, and auditoriums. And, we played pop tunes known by everyone with our own arrangements where people actually danced. We got paid fairly and worked often. By the early 80's, Disco/recorded music killed all the jobs. Today, unless you're a big name, those jobs don't exist unless you're a desperate soul and play for free. I loved the bass and alto flutes in the piece. Good playing . . . Marinero

  19. #68

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    We live in a world of:

    - Sterile automated beats
    - Plastic sounding preprogrammed instruments
    - Computer singing
    - Legions of fashion model singers that look better than they sound
    - Disney channel alumnus becoming today's Pop stars
    - Crossover Country Rap
    - The death of Rock & Roll
    - Strippers ... I mean female rappers that can't spit rhymes very well, but does that matter?
    - The disappearance of an improvised solo in any form of modern music.
    - Tribute bands
    - Urban music losing it's soulful connection to the church
    - Steven Segal becoming a guitar player
    - John Mayer becoming a guitar hero
    - The fact that Jazz is at it's lowest profile of all time in the modern music world.



    ........ and you want to complain about Alicia Keys chord structure?!!

  20. #69

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    "I heard someone from the music business saying they are no longer looking for talent, they want people with a certain look and a willingness to cooperate," Joni Mitchell says, summarizing just about everything she feels is wrong with the pop world these days.
    "I thought, that's interesting, because I believe a total unwillingness to cooperate is what is necessary to be an artist -- not for perverse reasons, but to protect your vision. The considerations of a corporation, especially now, have nothing to do with art or music. That's why I spend my time now painting.”

    Washington Post, 2004

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Yes I complain because of everything that you list as a problem in your post tonyb300.
    When it is no longer a viable business for professionals, this IS WHAT HAPPENS!
    OK so if you agree that most of modern music (outside of Snarky Puppy and Gregory Porter) is total poopoocaacaa. And the industry has gotten rid of all the "professionals", right? ....... wrong. The people running the music industry now are more professional than most of the music cats of the past. They're selling the worst crap and getting everybody to buy it, if that isn't the most professional sell job I don't know what is.

    The point is, with all the real problems with today's music, why rag about Alicia Keys not doing complex chord inversions.

  22. #71

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    do we like this ? It's newish

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Lament the extinction of the Dodo? I'm saying that IS the reason why Music, songwriting is so awful these days. But let me list it for you.

    1.) Pros don't work for FREE!
    2.)Pros don't work for FREE !
    3. Pros don't work for FREE !
    And artists don't always create art for money, do they?

    If someone wants to write a top-seller, fine by me. I'm free to change the station for dreck, or tune in for good stuff. Most everyone knows that nowadays musicians earn their living playing live, because ... wait for it ... record companies are no longer able to provide big cash advances. Technology and music consumption has changed, and that is a two-edged sword.

    Artists can now completely control the recording and release of original music, but because anyone can upload original recordings, it takes longer to find the gems.

    "Pros don't work for free" is kinda definitional, a tautology, but in reply I'd say that artists create first and market second. If you're creating in order to sell, maybe that's part of the problem? Me, I'd rather listen to some nobody who's got good songs than someone who writes to garner a check -- but then, I've always liked weird stuff so my mileage is probably different than others.

  24. #73

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    Since 1999 he's written or co-written over 50 top ten hits, almost half (23) hit #1, has been awarded ASCAP's Songwriter of the Year 11 times, and has accrued a net worth of approximately $260 million as of 2017 (earning $54 million in 2016).

    Interesting things from his Wikipedia page:

    "We work melody first... We’ll spend days, sometimes weeks, challenging the melody."
    "Instead of making tracks for five thousand people, why not make tracks for a million?"

    Newer Music Rant!-mm-jpg

  25. #74
    My argument still stands including Snarkey Puppy. There are no songs being written now that are going to be remembered or thought of us as great songs.
    I don't care how popular or how much crap they can sell. Or what awards they ,at have won.

    And to the argument there are more professional people in the business now. What graduated from Music Schools and Business Schools?
    What a bunch of amateurs that haven't a clue. Even Prince, Frank Sinatra, and Jimi Hendrix never attended Music School,lol!

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb300
    We live in a world of:

    - Sterile automated beats
    - Plastic sounding preprogrammed instruments
    - Computer singing
    - Legions of fashion model singers that look better than they sound
    - Disney channel alumnus becoming today's Pop stars
    - Crossover Country Rap
    - The death of Rock & Roll
    - Strippers ... I mean female rappers that can't spit rhymes very well, but does that matter?
    - The disappearance of an improvised solo in any form of modern music.
    - Tribute bands
    - Urban music losing it's soulful connection to the church
    - Steven Segal becoming a guitar player
    - John Mayer becoming a guitar hero
    - The fact that Jazz is at it's lowest profile of all time in the modern music world.



    ........ and you want to complain about Alicia Keys chord structure?!!
    I came across these guys during the weekend. Been listening all weekend. Talk about originality. Proto-germanic language, historic instruments, tailord to modern equipment, if i've read correctly. Neo-folk, or as they call it; amplified history.

  27. #76

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    Huh? Are my tastes in the gutter?


  28. #77

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  29. #78

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    Tbh Snarky Puppy do kind of encapsulate what I don’t like about current music.

    Kids like it though.

    The band I like of that current jazz funk whatever crop are Knower. That’s what music should sound like in the distant year of 2020. I don’t like it when they do live band stuff though. It just gets more commonplace, more jazz funk.

    They should stick to computers with the odd Binney parp or Lefebvre bassline.

    funny thing about the kids is I played them Donny McCaslin Quartet covering Boards of Canada and they were like ‘this is really weird music.’

    they should be annoying me with their horrible noises not the other way around. The people of my gen and older are definitely left field of the younger musicians.

    anyway I like Knower’s songs. They aren’t conventionally ‘good songs’ they are more like weird thoughts Louis Cole has when he can’t sleep set to music with good pop hooks and some ‘progressive’ harmonic ideas but not in a wanky way. it also sounds like they recorded in their bedroom using the stock Logic plugins (im sure they didn’t); a little bit lo fi DIY...

    it’s the sound of the present day to me.

    And I can’t fault that.

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Since 1999 he's written or co-written over 50 top ten hits, almost half (23) hit #1, has been awarded ASCAP's Songwriter of the Year 11 times, and has accrued a net worth of approximately $260 million as of 2017 (earning $54 million in 2016).

    Interesting things from his Wikipedia page:

    "We work melody first... We’ll spend days, sometimes weeks, challenging the melody."
    "Instead of making tracks for five thousand people, why not make tracks for a million?"

    Newer Music Rant!-mm-jpg
    i actually love Max Martin. Dude’s a genius.

    Swedish pop magic; can’t fault it... the bombastic harmonic minor progressions, the happy music/sad lyrics thing (maybe more of an ABBA vibe), the wonky english, the epic choruses...

    Although this is certainly not a patch song wise on his best work, the complexity and nuance of the production is something else:



    you might not like it, but you can’t say there isn’t a craft to it. I can’t do this, can you?

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb300
    We live in a world of:

    - Sterile automated beats
    - Plastic sounding preprogrammed instruments
    - Computer singing
    - Legions of fashion model singers that look better than they sound
    - Disney channel alumnus becoming today's Pop stars
    - Crossover Country Rap
    - The death of Rock & Roll
    - Strippers ... I mean female rappers that can't spit rhymes very well, but does that matter?
    - The disappearance of an improvised solo in any form of modern music.
    - Tribute bands
    - Urban music losing it's soulful connection to the church
    - Steven Segal becoming a guitar player
    - John Mayer becoming a guitar hero
    - The fact that Jazz is at it's lowest profile of all time in the modern music world.



    ........ and you want to complain about Alicia Keys chord structure?!!
    I’m certainly not a Mayer fan - but to be fair some of his acoustic stuff is legit hard to play. had to teach it.

  32. #81

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    These conversations always lead to Snarky Puppy. I find them insufferably smug.

    I want the future to be Jessica Ackerley: Canadian; went to jazz school; improvises on a Strat, no pedals; influences include Hendrix, Hall, Montgomery, Les Paul, John Fahey, Marc Ribot, Nels Cline, Mary Halvorson, This Heat, Morton Feldman, Charles Ives.


  33. #82

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    There are some fresh fun things on KEXP.
    KEXP
    - YouTube


    As always, depends on taste.. but I've found a few gems in those lives.

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    i actually love Max Martin. Dude’s a genius.

    Swedish pop magic; can’t fault it... the bombastic harmonic minor progressions, the happy music/sad lyrics thing (maybe more of an ABBA vibe), the wonky english, the epic choruses...

    Although this is certainly not a patch song wise on his best work, the complexity and nuance of the production is something else:



    you might not like it, but you can’t say there isn’t a craft to it. I can’t do this, can you?
    I prefer DAW comedy;



    DAWs are serious stuff!

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    My daughter just played a new Alecia Keys video ,just her singinging and playing piano. Just want to say how awful the actual music was. She is a way more capable musician of playing more sophisticated harmonic structures.

    But just like John Legend, and many other current Pop Icons. They play a simple 4 chord triadic repetitive set of changes, much like 1950s Doo Wop type of song form. And while simple isn't the problem, it's the actual lack of musicality it generates. Almost like a computer generated the song.
    I think Tony Bennett said it best describing it as 4 chords and 3 of them are wrong,LOL!

    I have enough of an issue with guitarists dumbing down the harmonic structures of songs. But when someone like Alecia Keys who is so much better does this it drives me CRAZY !
    Let me chime in. I can throw in many examples when it comes to this matter, but the example that is in my head right now is Happy by Pharell. The song Happy was actually nominated for an Oscar for crying out loud. Pharell didn’t win but if he did, then that gives Pharell 1 Oscar win and the legendary Ennio Morricone Zero Oscars! What an aberration and travesty would that have been.

    My final point. The song Happy, the bulk of it is basically a repetitive hook dragged like a dead horse for 5 gruelling minutes. You would have your ears tortured when this song gets played at the gas station or mall. The song Happy pales in comparison to a typical 2 minute jazz standard. A jazz standard only takes a couple of minutes of your time, but it’s rich with both melodic and harmonic content.

  36. #85
    So I'm sorry if you think Im only about Jazz musicians. I was referring to all genres of music. Country music while very much the new Pop, is perhaps where real musicians are still involved. Although that's become quite automated with click tracks,etc.

    Maybe Music is just not the goal any longer. As much as visual and generating self popularity being the current What is Hip!
    I'm glad I'm old and lived through the Audio Age. And as stated so well here in these posts, its always still avaible.

  37. #86

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    I like that "happy" song... sorry


  38. #87

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    Anyway. At some point, there were occasional quirks injected to basic pop songs.. from 2010 and on. This never happened in '80 or '90. Like never. Now those sneak in sometimes.
    People will get tired of the same stuff at one point. The mainstream probably will get more interesting harmony-wise. If not, whatever. Can always go fishing for that ourselves when in the mood.
    One truck-driver told me after 20 years of work, he has heard all the pop and rock there is. Now he listens to opera when on the job

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    So I'm sorry if you think Im only about Jazz musicians. I was referring to all genres of music. Country music while very much the new Pop, is perhaps where real musicians are still involved. Although that's become quite automated with click tracks,etc.

    Maybe Music is just not the goal any longer. As much as visual and generating self popularity being the current What is Hip!
    I'm glad I'm old and lived through the Audio Age. And as stated so well here in these posts, its always still avaible.
    I'd say Gospel and bluegrass. They're always reinventing themselves.
    I was a pop musician so it's funny reading threads like this. There is no more pop music or music business. No one hit wonders- no pop. It's been gone for about 20 years at least in the US.
    There's good new music out there but it's buried in cyber space. You have to dig for it. One of the last pop songs might have been Thong Song. Sisqo actually made some money with one hit.
    Take the money and run. Put it in your savings and go get another job. The old system helped keep the big shots honest.
    I nominate Thong Song as the last pop song. Sisqo is a real player. He made just enough money to take care of his family.


  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    Anyway. At some point, there were occasional quirks injected to basic pop songs.. from 2010 and on. This never happened in '80 or '90. Like never. Now those sneak in sometimes.
    People will get tired of the same stuff at one point. The mainstream probably will get more interesting harmony-wise. If not, whatever. Can always go fishing for that ourselves when in the mood.
    One truck-driver told me after 20 years of work, he has heard all the pop and rock there is. Now he listens to opera when on the job
    yess..my sat radio pre-set is on classical....then "real jazz"...after that...an adventure in the wild

  41. #90
    Obviously some of you are confusing Entertainment with Music. The above video has 2 chords and a half step pop modulation.
    I seriously doubt there were more than the singer and one person involved with producing this track. And although fun eye candy this is very basic Soul R&B without musicians.

    Please someone with actual musical knowledge and ability like Stevie Wonder, Paul McCartney, Sting. By the way Pharrell uses mostly a computer to compose, and he doesn't understand harmony.

  42. #91

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    This has.. less.


    ..but is very pleasing

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Obviously some of you are confusing Entertainment with Music. The above video has 2 chords and a half step pop modulation.
    I seriously doubt there were more than the singer and one person involved with producing this track. And although fun eye candy this is very basic Soul R&B without musicians.

    Please someone with actual musical knowledge and ability like Stevie Wonder, Paul McCartney, Sting. By the way Pharrell uses mostly a computer to compose, and he doesn't understand harmony.
    I guess I was trying to make a point about the existence of pop. If a one hit wonder can't make money they can put towards savings, pop doesn't exist.
    I'm a product of the 80's and it was all about entertainment. Live music made a comeback but it was exhausting.
    I don't know if you need energetic stage shows or outrageous videos to build an audience now. I think you'd have to be younger than me to know. It worked for us for a while in the 80's but Genx had different ideas. They were becoming old enough to go to clubs.
    I'll listen to anything in a club. I don't care what it is.

  44. #93
    You're not really listening as much as reacting to the video visually and to the rhythm. And that's fine ,but it does not use your ears fully or brain in any imiganitive way.

    Again I'm not putting down fun videos with a beat that's simple. But if you compare this same video to say" I Wish" by Stevie Wonder there is a huge difference in musicality as well as actual audio experience.
    Music made by actual people creates a much more human experience imo.

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Officially, the best song of the last 50 or so years. Perfect.

    I love it. Billy made up for Achy Breaky Heart. I hate that song.

  46. #95

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    Well, this one's auguring in.

  47. #96

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    I'm a pop guitarist. People get way too hung up on things. It's just pop music. It's not like jazz where you're looking for a consensus all the time. It's pop. Love a song. Hate a song. I look for the heartfelt vocal. Last pop song that grabbed me was Somebody that I Used to Know.
    Maybe pop has become more of a style than a genre in the last 10 or more years. Any pop I like these day isn't going to be popular.

    I like this;



    A good remix;



    If you know anything about pop you know it's about female singer/songwriters these days so be nice to the ladies.
    Looks like Barhari needs a band.

  48. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Huh? Are my tastes in the gutter?

    A new take on Old School R and B. Nice! Good playing . . . Marinero

  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Geez, Ron,
    Is Alicia your concept of an "Artist?" I guess the case is closed. Good playing . . . Marinero
    Alicia Keys is a successful musician and 'artist'. While what she does doesn't match my taste, the former is a fact.

    If there is anyone to be angry at it is the listeners, the audiences, i.e. the general public, for their lack of musical 'taste'.

    But to be angry at the successful when one isn't,, does smack of jealousy. OK, I understand the concept that a true artist doesn't compromise their art for a buck. I can respect that but I still see no reason to attack others that don't follow that path.

  50. #99

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    So funny

  51. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    Alicia Keys is a successful musician and 'artist'. While what she does doesn't match my taste, the former is a fact.

    If there is anyone to be angry at it is the listeners, the audiences, i.e. the general public, for their lack of musical 'taste'.

    But to be angry at the successful when one isn't,, does smack of jealousy. OK, I understand the concept that a true artist doesn't compromise their art for a buck. I can respect that but I still see no reason to attack others that don't follow that path.
    Is that really true? I doubt anyone here wants be a famous pop star.

    What you say would have more truth if applied to, say, Pat Metheny or someone.