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  1. #1

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    Jobim's original recording. I'd been struggling to remember the changes and subtle phrasing. Here's the man and his music for us all to enjoy and study:


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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2
    Astrud's rendition---also in A Minor:


  4. #3
    Antonio and Francis Albert in '69 and B Minor. I find the rendition somewhat stilted compared to the Brasilians'. Sinatra adjusting and self-conscious? A false insight by me? Anyway beautifully arranged by, I'm guessing Deodato or Don Costa, b/c Ogerman, who arranged much of this record, is much more sparse:


  5. #4

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  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Is this your group? Played the right changes and put some blues on it. That works b/c Jobim puts blues licks in his intro/interlude section just like he does in Intuil Passagem (sp?).

    Nice version...

  7. #6

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  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    Antonio and Francis Albert in '69 and B Minor. I find the rendition somewhat stilted compared to the Brasilians'. Sinatra adjusting and self-conscious? A false insight by me? Anyway beautifully arranged by, I'm guessing Deodato or Don Costa, b/c Ogerman, who arranged much of this record, is much more sparse:

    Hi, Joel,
    I think you're being kind. Without starting WWIII, I always felt Sinatra's singing/phrasing was contrived and that he had a mediocre voice. I could never listen to his music. Here's Flora Purim for the real deal:

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    Antonio and Francis Albert in '69 and B Minor. I find the rendition somewhat stilted compared to the Brasilians'. Sinatra adjusting and self-conscious? A false insight by me? Anyway beautifully arranged by, I'm guessing Deodato or Don Costa, b/c Ogerman, who arranged much of this record, is much more sparse:
    You are correct; Deodato did the arrangements for Sinatra's 2nd bossa nova album (which had a strange release history). I will agree with you that Sinatra doesn't seem to connect with this song, or if he did connect, I'm not that crazy about his interpretation. I was surprised to refer back to the original LP release and see that it was the first track on the album.

    Sinatra's bossa nova recordings are a guilty pleasure for me. I think on 'Wave', from these same sessions, he actually did connect with the material and come up with a pretty moving recording (assuming you like Sinatra in the first place, which of course not everybody does). He sounds kind of ridiculous on Girl from Ipanema and Dindi...his Jersey-ness is really showing.

    Sinatra singing bossa nova can bring Samuel Johnson's famous quote to mind: "[It is] like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."

  10. #9

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    I have always thought that the Jobim pairing resulted in Sinatra's finest work, where the "jersey-ness" is somewhat subdued, but the fact is that Jobim's guitar and Oberman's arrangements are the stars. Still, that version of "I Concentrate On You" is for the ages.

  11. #10

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  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, Joel,
    I think you're being kind. Without starting WWIII, I always felt Sinatra's singing/phrasing was contrived and that he had a mediocre voice. I could never listen to his music. Here's Flora Purim for the real deal:
    Let's start WWIII----I'm bored. You MF----LOL.

    I have friends (actually one) who Sinatra does nothing for. I happen to think he was a master of 'acting a lyric' and giving a song that wonderful resonance. And the proof of how good he was is the songs---many---written for him, Wee Small Hours being one example of MANY.

    Regarding the 'real deal': Sinatra (nor you nor I) wasn't brought up in Brasil----was he? He did Sinatra on Jobim's songs, as Getz did Getz. They sang/played themselves and the cash register rang more and more fame came Jobim's way. (I was a little miffed at Jobim's relegation to a very minor, almost cartoonish role on the '67 collaborative recording). But Jobim was smart, laid in the cut---and his music was very well known in the States thereafter.

    Flora Purim ain't a 'real deal'----more like she had the home field advantage.

    When Brasilians play or sing jazz it's with an accent. Same is true of us playing their stuff. Why should it be otherwise? There are 2 ways to go: become a 'student' and possibly sound like that, or just say f it, let's do it, I'll be myself. If I were to be picked to do a Brasilian date I'd insist on a rhythm section from there if possible (Vanderlei Perierra, a drummer----world-class---who was in one of my groups would be my first choice. He's a walking rhythms encyclopedia). I'd tell THEM to tell ME how it goes----then just put what I do over it. The blend of the 2 would work better than if I tried to copy the style(s). That's a real deal to ME---being oneself and hiring those most qualified fir the gig...

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    Let's start WWIII----I'm bored. You MF----LOL.

    I have friends (actually one) who Sinatra does nothing for. I happen to think he was a master of 'acting a lyric' and giving a song that wonderful resonance. And the proof of how good he was is the songs---many---written for him, Wee Small Hours being one example of MANY.

    Regarding the 'real deal': Sinatra (nor you nor I) wasn't brought up in Brasil----was he? He did Sinatra on Jobim's songs, as Getz did Getz. They sang/played themselves and the cash register rang more and more fame came Jobim's way. (I was a little miffed at Jobim's relegation to a very minor, almost cartoonish role on the '67 collaborative recording). But Jobim was smart, laid in the cut---and his music was very well known in the States thereafter.

    Flora Purim ain't a 'real deal'----more like she had the home field advantage.

    When Brasilians play or sing jazz it's with an accent. Same is true of us playing their stuff. Why should it be otherwise? There are 2 ways to go: become a 'student' and possibly sound like that, or just say f it, let's do it, I'll be myself. If I were to be picked to do a Brasilian date I'd insist on a rhythm section from there if possible (Vanderlei Perierra, a drummer----world-class---who was in one of my groups would be my first choice. He's a walking rhythms encyclopedia). I'd tell THEM to tell ME how it goes----then just put what I do over it. The blend of the 2 would work better than if I tried to copy the style(s). That's a real deal to ME---being oneself and hiring those most qualified fir the gig...

    Hi, Joel,
    Well, in regards to your opening sentence . . you'll never win a Pulitzer Prize or a popularity contest and that's fine with me. It adds no weight to a weak argument . . . just the opposite. However, the point is that we should do what we do well. Period. Sinatra singing Pop Jazz. Flora Purim doing Bossa/Jazz. When you leave your neighborhood, things are never the same and it reminds me of all these washed up Rock vocalists from the 60's turning to Jazz: Rod Stewart, Paul McCartney, Sting, Ringo, etc. and producing truly embarrassing music. But, we're all entitled to our own opinions and that's mine. For the record, I've never liked Sinatra. I can't even listen to his music. My favorites from his generation are Johnny Hartman, Arthur Prysock, Tony Bennet, Nat Cole and Eddie Jefferson. Simple. Thanks for the reply Good playing . . . Marinero

    Here's Arthur Prysock with a tasty treat.

  14. #13
    FWIW: I don't have much time to hang on these sites these days. I CERTAINLY have no time for trolls. I started this thread and feel I have the right to say that----and that if your (the universal 'your') response is snarky, impolite, or otherwise offensive you're going straight to 'ignore'.

    Thank yiz and 'as you were'...

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    FWIW: I don't have much time to hang on these sites these days. I CERTAINLY have no time for trolls. I started this thread and feel I have the right to say that----and that if your (the universal 'your') response is snarky, impolite, or otherwise offensive you're going straight to 'ignore'.

    Thank yiz and 'as you were'...
    Hi, Joel,
    You have every right to say what you think/feel as well as others on this Forum. However, when people disagree with you, its a matter of taste and to call them a troll is disingenuous. I would never put anyone on the "ignore" list since freedom of expression and ideas is a signpost of our Democracy and contrary opinions are healthy to all discussions as they help us think seriously about positions we embrace. Thanks for the reply. Perhaps, next time our dialogue will be on a higher level. Good playing . . . Marinero

    Here's a tasty treat from the incomparable Eddie Jefferson who I had the fortune to see at Chicago's Jazz Showcase just before his death. I hope you enjoy!

  16. #15
    Yeah, Jobim and Sinatra (Wintermoon). A summit meeting of 2 great cultures, though Jobim lays back into his assigned role (record co.? Mr. Sinatra?).

    The cool thing about hybrids is that though some may think it only waters down each component (in this case, of course, Bossa and ASB) each style has already cross-pollinated who-all knows how many times. I like gumbo, you dig?

    It's like this by my lights: we can make a leap of faith and say racists are full of s---- b/c there IS no 'pure' race extant. Too much, um, 'juggin' between men and women of all colors/cultures. And that's a beautiful thing----just as it is in music. We get the best of all worlds that way.

    So Sinatra, as I said earlier, did not 'defile' Jobim, because he was Sinatra, what you hear is what you get. And Jobim was already influenced, he averred, by 'cool jazz', making his meeting with Getz appropriate and inspired.

    AND they ALL became geometrically more famous!

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    Yeah, Jobim and Sinatra (Wintermoon). A summit meeting of 2 great cultures, though Jobim lays back into his assigned role (record co.? Mr. Sinatra?).

    The cool thing about hybrids is that though some may think it only waters down each component (in this case, of course, Bossa and ASB) each style has already cross-pollinated who-all knows how many times. I like gumbo, you dig?

    It's like this by my lights: we can make a leap of faith and say racists are full of s---- b/c there IS no 'pure' race extant. Too much, um, 'juggin' between men and women of all colors/cultures. And that's a beautiful thing----just as it is in music. We get the best of all worlds that way.

    So Sinatra, as I said earlier, did not 'defile' Jobim, because he was Sinatra, what you hear is what you get. And Jobim was already influenced, he averred, by 'cool jazz', making his meeting with Getz appropriate and inspire

    AND they ALL became geometrically more famous!

    Thanks, J!
    I like Russian Vodka . . . no tomato juice, no tonic, and certainly no orange juice. Just straight Vodka on the rocks. I guess it's a personality trait.
    Thanks for your reply . . . Playing again . . . Marinero

  18. #17

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    I like vodka directly from the freezer. And I like Agua de Beber directly from Tania Maria:


  19. #18

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    May I indulge y'all with my version?
    thanks

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by WahmBomAh
    May I indulge y'all with my version?
    thanks
    Thanks a million. Beautiful singing and playing. The real deal from people that are from where this music stems. I even 'bought' the faster tempo. A+, and thanks again. I wish you both the best---you deserve it!

  21. #20

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    thanks! Much appreciated.
    Yes the tempo came about when I was asked to do a latin big band arrangement of the tune in NY ...nothing came of it but the idea stuck.
    Actually , I`m a NY`er but played with the 2 founding fathers of samba jazz drums and also Astrud and Bebel Gilberto and live mostly in Brazil for over 20 years ...so I guess something seeped in.
    It`s infectious and a never ending source of inspiration !
    Play on !

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by WahmBomAh
    thanks! Much appreciated.
    Yes the tempo came about when I was asked to do a latin big band arrangement of the tune in NY ...nothing came of it but the idea stuck.
    Actually , I`m a NY`er but played with the 2 founding fathers of samba jazz drums and also Astrud and Bebel Gilberto and live mostly in Brazil for over 20 years ...so I guess something seeped in.
    It`s infectious and a never ending source of inspiration !
    Play on !
    I lived in the Mango for 62 years----til I had enough 'manganese'---LOL (live in Philly now, and enjoying life and music way more----it's just a better fit).

    One of the thrills of my life was being called to sit in on Gene Bertoncini's gig with Maucha Adnet and Duduka (sp?) up there. Maucha liked something I played---me, a non-Brasilian!! She touched my shoulder and smiled and I almost melted! After the set I, w/o false modesty, just concern that I did OK with these masters, asked Duduka if I had 'played the "right rhythm"'. 'What's the "right rhythm"'? A great experience and one that only again proves that you ought to play yourself and it'll somehow always be 'right'. I know I'll never be you cats and wouldn't even try---but it's not gonna stop me from playing Brasilian classics, b/c I love them and I believe that it shows.

    BTW, you must know Vanderlei Perierra? I love him and Susan. Vanderlei and I did several gigs as I hired him for many projects. He's a walking rhythm encyclopedia and completely unique drummer. No one plays, for example, jazz like him---b/c he plays himself and is a master...

  23. #22

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    Sure ...those are all my peeps !! Gene too !
    That music is an endless source ..from Jobim to the "younger" cats like Toninho Horta, Guinga, Filo Machado, Gismonti, Buarque, Joao Bosco and so many more. Glad to meet you.

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by WahmBomAh
    Sure ...those are all my peeps !! Gene too !
    That music is an endless source ..from Jobim to the "younger" cats like Toninho Horta, Guinga, Filo Machado, Gismonti, Buarque, Joao Bosco and so many more. Glad to meet you.
    Toninho is one of three musicians on my 'bucket list' to play with (the other 2 being Tom Harrell and Kenny Barron). I think SO much of his playing, singing, writing/arranging. He's a hero. I did meet him once, in the original Fat Cat (my unofficial home in NY)----when Mitch Borden had a separate music room. He was rehearsing a gig with a nameless guitarist who at the time I thought was an egotistical jerk (after I met HIM I changed my mind---and my policy is no names mentioned when something negative is said). Every time Toninho spoke or played in this situation it was like the sun coming out. The minute I saw him I walked up and said 'I love you---all we musicians do'. He was very friendly and introduced me to his family.

    Tohinho's secret weapon to me is his single string solos on electric. Some people think he's not a soloist but they got it wrong, wrong, WRONG! His time is scary good, and he throws these things in from out of nowhere that are so musical and hip.

    Like I say, I hope I get to do any kind of project with him (and Tom and Kenny, too). I can only learn a lot---and that's what it's about...

  25. #24
    And I'd love to play with you, too. One day...

  26. #25

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    Cool !!!
    Thanks .... Agreed on all counts. Toninho has contributed so much to the language and many people don`t realize that they are hearing his influence even if they never heard him play. True genius and humility as you say.
    I just recorded a new CD with the singer I play with where we did a tune by Mr. Horta in a more "blue note" kind of reading. I`ll post the video when the time comes. As for me ...still chipping away at the songbook and learning every day. If you're in town we will do Birdland on March 1st. thanks for the good words

  27. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by WahmBomAh
    If you're in town we will do Birdland on March 1st. thanks for the good words
    Unfortunately I only come in occasionally as I'm sort of poor and live in Philly anyway. Come in for rare gigs or to study piano and composition. So I'M still learning---it's a lifelong undertaking.

    Knock 'em dead though---and maybe we can play sometime anyway...