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  1. #1

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    Just rediscovered this gem. The Manzer baritone guitar is amazing. My favorite part of Pat's shows are when he sits down with an acoustic solo. Apparently recorded in one day, won a Grammy for best "new age". Pat probably got a laugh out of that. One mic, one guitar. The reverbs are gorgeous. I'm guessing protools with maybe some help. Steve Rodby co-produced. Beautiful album by Pat.

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaco View Post
    Just rediscovered this gem. The Manzer baritone guitar is amazing. My favorite part of Pat's shows are when he sits down with an acoustic solo. Apparently recorded in one day, won a Grammy for best "new age". Pat probably got a laugh out of that. One mic, one guitar. The reverbs are gorgeous. I'm guessing protools with maybe some help. Steve Rodby co-produced. Beautiful album by Pat.
    I've listened this album a lot (as all PM's albums). 5-10 years ago. I could not help thinking that many parts of this album is not real. I mean many parts are self-serving dissonances with no integral artistic concept. . I do not doubt PM hears what is he doing, still the music is more l'art pour l'art or dissonance pour dissonance, no sentences and no message there. Agree the sound quality is very tempting, but this also underlines the l'art pour l'art feeling

    Ferry Cross the Mersey has its mood, I really enjoyed it

  4. #3
    I think of dissonance like a spice used in a recipe. If you're from say Wisconsin, garlic or cayenne pepper are not very popular. While in New Orleans it better have plenty of both and a lot more. Europeans are not as offended by dissonance as an American audience. Probably why jazz musicians are much more appreciated there then in the states. That said I do think you can over do it. Listening to Kreisberg's take on Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah" it's a bit overdone and looses something for me. If I do a take on something like that I'll probably leave a lot of the dissonance out as my Florida audience is going to think I'm making mistakes...

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaco View Post
    I think of dissonance like a spice used in a recipe. If you're from say Wisconsin, garlic or cayenne pepper are not very popular. While in New Orleans it better have plenty of both and a lot more. Europeans are not as offended by dissonance as an American audience.
    I like dissinance :-) (I know its like the man who does not understand jokes but insists he has sense of humor.)
    I thought I put it my original answer, I listened ELP (well decades ago), then Ornette Coleman, then Dewey Redman, Shostakovich, etc. So my problem is definitely not the dissonance, instead (and here I only could repeat the reasoning all I wrote)

  6. #5

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    I bought an inexpensive baritone (ABT60E) and have it permanently in "altered nashville tuning" because of this album.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by zdub View Post
    I bought an inexpensive baritone (ABT60E) and have it permanently in "altered nashville tuning" because of this album.
    I did the same thing with an ABT-60 that I have installed a Baggs Lyric into. I was out of town for a few months to take care of my father. When I returned, I found the baritone out of tune, with some broken strings.

    It turns out, my son had some of his buddies over one time, and one of them attempted to tune the guitar up to e-e! The top 2 strings didn’t care for that. "One Quiet Night" Metheny. No damage to the guitar, and my son learned not to trust any of his friends around my stuff.

    Anywho, I put a new set of standard baritone strings on it, and haven’t gotten around to replacing the middle strings. I’ll get back to it one of these days.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  8. #7

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    Guys, could you get a bit more into that 'PM baritone tuning'. I read an interview with him about that CD where he describes it, as far as I understand it is something close re-entrant tuning


    As Pat says he used two middle strings an octave higher, and he is in A...

    so we have from top string down A2 - E2 - C2 - G2 - D1 - A1 - right?

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Guys, could you get a bit more into that 'PM baritone tuning'. I read an interview with him about that CD where he describes it, as far as I understand it is something close re-entrant tuning


    As Pat says he used two middle strings an octave higher, and he is in A...

    so we have from top string down A2 - E2 - C2 - G2 - D1 - A1 - right?
    I found this: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/in...-night.738536/
    Build bridges, not walls.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles View Post
    thanks!

    Looks like I am right.

    I think by the way with modern strings it is possible to string regular dreadnought or jumbo that way (with regular 62-65 cm scale) - just to pick correct string gauge.

    I amnot sure though how it would sound on acoustic - theoretically guitar top of the baritone should be tuned differently.

  11. #10

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    I'm just relistening to the album at work -- I forgot how much I liked it!
    Build bridges, not walls.

  12. #11

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    Whenever I do something like this, I use a string tension calculator. Pretty important for an acoustic to avoid possible damage especially with shorter scale length instruments. Here is my B to B setup with info from the program STC:

    ALVAREZ ALTERED TO B
    len 27.7"

    B3 .014" DAXS == 16.63#
    F3# .020" DAPL == 24.11#
    D4 .014" DAXS == 23.52#
    A3 .018" DAPB == 24.38#
    E2 .049" DAPB == 26.54#
    B1 .060" DAPB == 22.13#

    total == 137.3#

    DAPB is bronze wound, DAXS is steel wound, DAPL is plain steel.

    I ended up slotting the saddles for the 5th & 6th on my ABT because the heavier strings just kept popping the bridge pins up especially when playing with 66 gauge (Metheny uses a 65 and tunes to A).

    Metheny calls it "altered nashville", with the 3rd & 4th an octave higher. Regular nashville tuning has 6 through 3 an octave higher. There is also Gambale tuning which has the 1st & 2nd an octave lower with the lowest string tuned to A2. Gambale explains and extols its virtues in this video:


  13. #12

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    What the hell. Here's me playing one of the OQN tunes in aforementioned tuning.


    Last edited by zdub; 10-29-2019 at 07:47 PM.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by zdub View Post
    Whenever I do something like this, I use a string tension calculator. Pretty important for an acoustic to avoid possible damage especially with shorter scale length instruments. Here is my B to B setup with info from the program STC:

    ALVAREZ ALTERED TO B
    len 27.7"

    B3 .014" DAXS == 16.63#
    F3# .020" DAPL == 24.11#
    D4 .014" DAXS == 23.52#
    A3 .018" DAPB == 24.38#
    E2 .049" DAPB == 26.54#
    B1 .060" DAPB == 22.13#

    total == 137.3#

    DAPB is bronze wound, DAXS is steel wound, DAPL is plain steel.

    I ended up slotting the saddles for the 5th & 6th on my ABT because the heavier strings just kept popping the bridge pins up especially when playing with 66 gauge (Metheny uses a 65 and tunes to A).

    Metheny calls it "altered nashville", with the 3rd & 4th an octave higher. Regular nashville tuning has 6 through 3 an octave higher. There is also Gambale tuning which has the 1st & 2nd an octave lower with the lowest string tuned to A2. Gambale explains and extols its virtues in this video:
    Thanks.

    By the way - what do you think about that Alvarez? Is it well-made?

    I have that kind of experience as I play different scale lutes and there you have to calculate strings... today with moders string it is possible to string almost anything at any pitch...
    On lute with 61cm scale I have basses as low as Bb... the most important thing is the tensions as you said.. and that the string would not be too thick - becasue on guitar one has to fret it.

    PS
    It is interesting that these tunings have historic precedents: theorbo and baroque guitar had re-entrant tunings and the players and composers actively used the advantages

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Thanks.

    By the way - what do you think about that Alvarez? Is it well-made?

    I have that kind of experience as I play different scale lutes and there you have to calculate strings... today with moders string it is possible to string almost anything at any pitch...
    On lute with 61cm scale I have basses as low as Bb... the most important thing is the tensions as you said.. and that the string would not be too thick - becasue on guitar one has to fret it.

    PS
    It is interesting that these tunings have historic precedents: theorbo and baroque guitar had re-entrant tunings and the players and composers actively used the advantages
    Alvarez is well constructed and amazing bang for the buck. Pretty much flawless. Seems to be a highly regarded import brand for acoustic guitars at all price points, akin to Yamaha. I bought used for $400 with HSC and I've seen a Guitar Center version (still Alvarez branded) for $300. No other acoustic bari near that price although Ibanez makes a cutaway bari for $700. It can be somewhat tiresome to play due to body size, scale length, and heavier strings. If interested in something higher end, there are often discussions at Acoustic Guitar Forum.

    I was introduced to theorbo via Rob Scallon's channel. He has been doing some stuff recently with Brandon Acker including this one with some interesting historical info on the evolution of the 6 string:


  16. #15

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    By the way I saw an 8-string baritone where two middle strings have octave courses (like on 12 strings or lutes)... I thing it follows approximately Pat's tuning idea.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    By the way I saw an 8-string baritone where two middle strings have octave courses (like on 12 strings or lutes)... I thing it follows approximately Pat's tuning idea.
    Taylor did this on their 326e Baritone-8.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by zdub View Post
    Gambale tuning which has the 1st & 2nd an octave lower with the lowest string tuned to A2. Gambale explains and extols its virtues in this video:
    that Gambale tuning looks very interesting for getting some close cluster voicings going i’m gonna give it a go ...I’ve got the individual gauges now i’m gonna try

    A3 18w
    E3. 24w
    C4. 14p
    G3 20w
    D3. 28w
    A2. 38w

    the tensions look okwe’ll see how that goes

    Sorry that's difficult to read ...
    i don't know what happened to all my spaces
    and returns
    Last edited by pingu; 11-02-2019 at 07:04 AM.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu View Post
    that Gambale tuning looks very interesting for getting some close cluster voicings going i’m gonna give it a go ...I’ve got the individual gauges now i’m gonna tryA3 18. E3. 24. C4. 14p. G3 20. D3. 28. A2. 38. the tensions look okwe’ll see how that goes

    Sorry that's difficult to read ...
    i don't know what happened to all my spaces
    and returns
    try clearing your cache on whatever browser you are using. This problem happened to me (and a lot of other folks) after the recent server migration.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by zdub View Post
    try clearing your cache on whatever browser you are using. This problem happened to me (and a lot of other folks) after the recent server migration.
    phew .... thanks Zdub that's better ....