The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hello all,

    Having been a member here for quite a few years I've finally got round to posting something!

    I'm attempting to play along to Romaine from the album Undercurrent (Bill Evans and Jim Hall), but I'm having real trouble following the timing of the piece. Does anyone have any tips on how to identify the beat on this tune? While I think I'm managing to figure out the notes and timing within phrases ok (by my standards), I'm pretty much just guessing at when to come in with the next phrase and it's annoying me! I don't usually have too much of a problem with this, but sometimes I hit a tune (like this one) where I just can't lock in with the timing. I wonder if it is maybe because both Evans and Hall are playing around the beats? Any hints or tips relating to this particular tune, or how to tackle this in general, would be very much appreciated.

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  3. #2

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    It's a very floaty 4. Once jim comes in, I find it easiest to feel as a 6 on 4 feel-- two triplets per bar in 4 beats.

    See if you can "sing" drums over it..."trip-pl-et trip-pl-et"

  4. #3
    Thank you mr. beaumont ... yes, thinking in the way you describe definitely helps, but just when I think I've got it, I realize I've lost it again. Some parts of the piece seem easier to follow than others - I guess that's progress anyway!
    Last edited by clovie; 10-01-2019 at 11:02 AM.

  5. #4
    Yeah. Definite 12/8 feel. Two masters who have played forever who basically can hear the drummer and bass player which aren't there. They're hearing the full thing in an overplayed, slow blues version in their head and just reducing down from there to something sparser and a lot harder to hear if you don't know what you're listening to.

    While you're trying to learn something more difficult like this , I would maybe listen to equal parts "Fine and Mellow" , the old Billie holiday live recording with a ton of players.... very large ensemble, until you can basically hear 12/8 under everything, even when it is not overtly stated. That recording really has everything for learning to hear this stuff:doubletime, quarter note triplets, eighth note triplets, as well as certain players playing with very different swing feel, which isn't directly tied to the 12/8 slavishly.

    In that old version, you really hear all the subdivisions of the beat very clearly, and it's slow enough to easily here.

    Anyway, in my mind, I imagine that's what Jim Hall and Bill Evans are hearing over everything. Then, they just subtract out most of it when they play.


    Doubletime feel around 2:00+ in the Evans/ Hall BTW. You can basically tap your foot twice as fast and hear the triplets for each note etc.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 10-02-2019 at 06:07 AM.

  6. #5

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    Well, for chrissakes let's hear what you're on about!



    I'd say this is something spontaneous that you just feel when you're playing. I've done that with tunes, got something wrong and then tried to copy it... fatal error, couldn't do it. Not properly anyway. These things arise from a natural feel for syncopation.

    What I'm saying is that it's extremely doubtful if they sat down and measured out fractions of timing, etc etc. Absurd, really :-)

  7. #6

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    It sounds out-of-time until a brief silence, after which Jim enters. An edit perhaps? Maybe they counted it in?

    There is then a brief period that sounds uncertain, after which it feels like a slow 4/4. Keeping a 12/8 overlay in mind probably won't hurt.

    An aside, roughly related:

    In the last few years, I've been playing with a big band that does a lot of material in 6/8, broken up in different ways. So, there may be a section of dotted quarters interspersed, here and there, with actual eighth notes or combinations of quarters and eighths.

    The guitar and bass are reading the same line. That's helpful when you need him to show you what's going on. It's not so great when he's nailing it and you're not.

    In adjusting to this, I went through a phase where I tried out different ways of tapping my foot. A better reader/player probably wouldn't have to think about this, but I found it necessary.

    Eventually, I came to the realization that, often, tapping my foot on dotted quarters was easiest, depending on the tune. But, it can create some excitement when, after 32 bars of dotted quarters, you suddenly have to play quarters (no dots). In that situation, it was sometimes easiest to tap my foot on the 1 of each bar. So, it was one-and for dotted quarters. Feeling a triplet for quarters or two triplets for eighths. So far, I haven't found it easiest to tap quarters or eighths.

    In 3/4, it seems to be easiest to tap dotted halves.

    After a while it suddenly seemed easy. It didn't at first.

    One hint that went over my head at first: the leader usually counted it off the easiest way to tap. So, he'd count off dotted quarters, say, in 6/8.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    These things arise from a natural feel for syncopation.
    It may be NATURAL in the end, after a ton of listening, playing with others and working it out, but I think that misses the point. You aren't going to magically wake up one day with that level of "natural feel for syncopation".

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    What I'm saying is that it's extremely doubtful if they sat down and measured out fractions of timing, etc etc. Absurd, really :-)
    At surface level, this seems based on the number one logical fallacy used on the forum: "Practice room methodology must be the same as bandstand methodology." Maybe you're not sailing that exactly?

    Anyway, they're two different entities entirely. The number of things which the greats DON'T think about on the bandstand isn't necessarily related to their NEVER having done a ton of listening, playing and working out those same things in practice.

    How one thinks in the end isn't necessarily related to how one thinks in practice. That's the whole point: to get to the point where you think about things in a completely different way , ....or basically DON'T think. But that's not the starting point.

  9. #8

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    I'm quite sure that one can have a natural feel for syncopation although it can be enhanced with experience. There's no question of magically waking up with it. Some have it, some don't, some have it in abundance. All things can be improved on, of course.

    I think Jim Hall hesitated very slightly before coming in, not that I blame him; he recovered quickly enough. Personally, listening to that, I found getting the pulse of Evans' playing very difficult. There's no rhythm section tapping out a consistent beat. There probably is a pulse somewhere to it but, let's be honest, it sounds very much like free play to me.

    Try tapping along to it, not easy. It's much more obvious when they both get into it later, especially at about 3.40 when Jim starts strumming the beat! I think there's a lot of rubato playing at the beginning, they're both feeling their way.

  10. #9

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    As soon as Jim Hall starts playing, they go into tempo (i.e. it is not rubato any more) and the beat is there, it’s not that hard to hear if you are used to ballad tempos. Also remember these guys are at a level where they don’t need to state it explicitly, or do anything so obvious as count it in.

    I recommend the OP listens to a lot of slow ballads (e.g. Dexter Gordon), then they will eventually get a better feel for this kind of tempo.

    At this tempo the soloist normally has a choice of playing triplets on each beat, or going a bit faster and playing sixteenths, Jim Hall keeps switching between the two, which is probably what is confusing for the OP.

    I would add it took me a lot of listening before I could get my head around these really slow tempos, especially coming to jazz from rock.

  11. #10
    rpjazzguitar - thanks for those tips on following the beat. This is definitely something I have to work at, but as you and others have said above the more time that is spent actively working on this the clearer, and more natural, it becomes.

  12. #11
    grahambop & matt.guitarteacher - Thank you for the recommendation to spend more time listening to slow ballads and examples like Billie Holiday's "Fine and Mellow" to get a better feel for the underlying timing being applied here - will look into these.

    grahambop - I think I get what you are saying about Jim Hall switching between triplets and sixteenths. This is perhaps what I was getting at in my reply to mr. beaumont - I could follow along (tapping) for a while, then there seems to be a change - to me I can follow some parts most easily by tapping or clapping a triplet rhythm, but other parts seem to fit more easily with a syncopated rhythm.
    Last edited by clovie; 10-02-2019 at 09:18 PM.

  13. #12
    ragman1 - You mentioned finding it hard to identify a solid 'one' and that is I think the crux of the reason I initially brought this up. Although not probably naturally gifted in the rhythm department I can usually figure things out provided I can identify the basic pulse - which I just could not seem to do with this piece. I think you also brought up the other area that was confusing me. Having listened more to the track, and really focused on time, I think the tempo does change a few times through the piece (not just in the introduction section).

    Anyway, it is encouraging to know that "it's not just me", and there does appear to be some complexity or quirkiness to the timing in this track - which I'm sure more experienced players can probably roll with fairly easily, but definitely presents challenges to me!

    Having said all that, to me this is a beautiful tune with beautiful piano and guitar sounds, and maybe the complexity/quirkiness of the timing is part of what draws me to it. It amazes me that the two of them can seemingly sail through it all so effortlessly together. Awesome tune I think.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by clovie
    ragman1 - You mentioned finding it hard to identify a solid 'one' and that is I think the crux of the reason I initially brought this up. Although not probably naturally gifted in the rhythm department I can usually figure things out provided I can identify the basic pulse - which I just could not seem to do with this piece. I think you also brought up the other area that was confusing me. Having listened more to the track, and really focused on time, I think the tempo does change a few times through the piece (not just in the introduction section).

    Anyway, it is encouraging to know that "it's not just me", and there does appear to be some complexity or quirkiness to the timing in this track - which I'm sure more experienced players can probably roll with fairly easily, but definitely presents challenges to me!

    Having said all that, to me this is a beautiful tune with beautiful piano and guitar sounds, and maybe the complexity/quirkiness of the timing is part of what draws me to it. It amazes me that the two of them can seemingly sail through it all so effortlessly together. Awesome tune I think.
    Absolutely right, it's a very beautiful piece of music, beautifully played. But there's no particular time at the beginning, they're playing off each other. It's very well done and very subtle. It's certainly not just you.

    I've tapped out the strong beats to see if there's a set interval between them; there isn't. I've also speeded it up quite a lot. If there was a steady pulse you'd hear it; there isn't. They're playing off each other. Only at 3-something when Jim Hall starts strumming is there a recognisable beat.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Only at 3-something when Jim Hall starts strumming is there a recognisable beat.
    Not really, as soon as jim comes in the 6 on 4 feel is pretty evident, and Bill plays plenty of quarter note triplets in his left hand too.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    it’s not that hard to hear if you are used to ballad tempos.
    I would add it took me a lot of listening before I could get my head around these really slow tempos.
    Um, so it's not hard to hear... but only after lots and lots of listening. Right!

    It's hard for me, I couldn't tap to it. I think I'm waiting for a solid 'one' beat followed by a 'two' which doesn't seem to come, and just get confused. Maybe I'm missing something.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Not really, as soon as jim comes in the 6 on 4 feel is pretty evident, and Bill plays plenty of quarter note triplets in his left hand too.
    Well, maybe a little earlier, but not at the beginning. I can't tap it out and, like I said, if it's speeded up there's no steady pulse. I can see we're going to go round and round with this :-)

    It's rhythm, Jim, but not as we know it

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Absolutely right, it's a very beautiful piece of music, beautifully played. But there's no particular time at the beginning, they're playing off each other. It's very well done and very subtle. It's certainly not just you.

    I've tapped out the strong beats to see if there's a set interval between them; there isn't. I've also speeded it up quite a lot. If there was a steady pulse you'd hear it; there isn't. They're playing off each other. Only at 3-something when Jim Hall starts strumming is there a recognisable beat.
    Sorry, you are just wrong on this. As soon as Jim Hall starts playing at 40 seconds, Bill Evans holds the tempo at about 90 bpm (you can hear the beat in the first 2 chords he plays at the moment Jim starts) and this tempo is pretty well maintained from then on. I can hear it and count it easily.

  19. #18

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    Another thing worth listening to is the solo sessions Bill Evans did to finish his Riverside contract. He did a marathon set of solo piano takes which constantly switch between rubato and tempo playing, listening to these is a great way to learn to hear where he is placing the beat. When he plays in tempo he doesn’t always place an obvious chord on the one for example, it’s a lot more subtle than that.

  20. #19

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    I found this, for what it's worth. Seems to be an honest try and maybe not bad. They have it in 2/2 and say it's 'free tempo until guitar first enters'. First 29 bars here.


    Bill Evans & Jim Hall - Undercurrent - Romain sheet music download free in PDF or MIDI

    Timing in Jim Hall's Romaine-score_0-png@1000000-jpg

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Sorry, you are just wrong on this. As soon as Jim Hall starts playing at 40 seconds, Bill Evans holds the tempo at about 90 bpm (you can hear the beat in the first 2 chords he plays at the moment Jim starts) and this tempo is pretty well maintained from then on. I can hear it and count it easily.
    OK. I don't mind being wrong :-)

  22. #21

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    I still can't tap to it till well into the tune

  23. #22

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    Try listening to 49 seconds in, when the chord changes, Bill Evans clearly states all 4 beats at a nice steady tempo, with a chord played on each beat. For the purposes of hearing the beat, ignore what Jim Hall is doing at this point and just listen to Bill.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    As soon as Jim Hall starts playing, they go into tempo (i.e. it is not rubato any more) and the beat is there, it’s not that hard to hear if you are used to ballad tempos. Also remember these guys are at a level where they don’t need to state it explicitly, or do anything so obvious as count it in.
    My perceptions is the very same. It is completely in 4/4, and JH when enters plays triplet feel, then some delay, then some syncopation.when starting the phrase. Great ballad rhythm, and all part of the "rhythm vocabulary"

    ***

    I would add that I can hear the 4/4 by Bill Evans in the very preceding bar before Jim Hall enters. So there is some kinda "count in"..

    ***

    It may help if the listener finds the 4/4 temp in this very last bar before Jim Hall enters, and if the listener already "in tempo" this way it could be easier understand, play along or sing along and catch Jim Hall's solo.
    Last edited by Gabor; 10-03-2019 at 10:29 AM.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Try listening to 49 seconds in, when the chord changes, Bill Evans clearly states all 4 beats at a nice steady tempo, with a chord played on each beat. For the purposes of hearing the beat, ignore what Jim Hall is doing at this point and just listen to Bill.
    It's okay, I've got it. I know they're doing it, I just find it incredibly difficult to tap along in time with it.

    (This was the guy who leapt out of bed without a warm-up and sailed through that time test we did (where the music stops and starts again later). I've still got it somewhere!).

  26. #25

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    When Jim comes in it's 4/4... and very stable (easily countable)...

    Actually I hear Jim plays quite conventionally - just some syncopated accents.

    But Bill at the beginning plays something like in triplet to 2/2 time...
    I am not sure.. it feels like twice slower (so it is 2) and feels like 3 pulse... so probably a triplet in 2/2
    Last edited by Jonah; 10-04-2019 at 09:39 AM.