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  1. #151

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    I consider "Alter Ego" (1995) by pianist James Williams a recent standard. It's been covered by such artists as Roy Hargrove, Kevin Eubanks, Kenny Barron, Donald Byrd, Louis Hayes, Buster Williams, and many others. Also, "Got A Match" (1996) by Chick Corea comes to mind as another "recent standard" .
    Attached Images Attached Images Why no new standards?-alter-ego-jpg 
    Last edited by rintincop; 11-10-2019 at 07:32 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #152

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    Both of these tunes are 10-12 years older than you list, so over 33+ years old. I suppose that is recent in the big picture.

  4. #153

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    Prefab Sprout is one of my favorite cult fan bands. And leader Paddy MacAloon is on record as having been heavily influenced by George Gershwin. One that would work, of many by this band is “Cruel” It’s from the’80s, but written and arranged in the old manner

  5. #154

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    Also this one, “Horsin’ Around” - has a bit of a Bacharach feel

  6. #155

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    Hot dog, jumping frog, Albuquerque.

  7. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    Hot dog, jumping frog, Albuquerque.
    I remember that. From Langley Park To Memphis.

  8. #157

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    Tal 175- Actually a lot of jazz musicians or some at least did do/use Beatles tunes as standards in the 60s! But you're right jazz is an approach to music ?. So in that case why not jazz up popular tunes of today? If I get a band together again that's what we'll do and it'll be if not original definetly different! I bet it might even cross over since it's playing pop tunes. Only problem is some of these songs are very dull harmonically and melodicly speaking.

  9. #158

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    That's because Glenn Campbell was a hell of a good guitar player/musician! He was part of the famous wreaking crew with Tommy Tedesco and Carol Kaye.

  10. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    The idea that the boppers didn’t want to play for dancers is bollocks really - the ‘no dancing’ signs were from a change in club licensing.
    .
    ok fair enough .....
    but how do you dance at the fast the tempos ?

  11. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    All pure speculation on my part, but this is how I've always seen our...

    During the GASB era, many many more popular songs inherently had great changes. Around the sixties, changes for popular music became simpler to a large degree. I don't think it's a coincidence that jazzers started playing a higher percentage of their own tunes in later generations.

    Anyway, modern popular songs with really interesting changes which jazzers like) are much more the outliers. Ever some modern songs which have become more "standards" probably have to be more heavily re-harmonized.

    Many people who don't know what jazz is assume that the GASB songs ARE jazz. Fred Astair and co ARE jazz too many, and to be fair, those tunes have much more jazz-like changes compared to pop music of later generations.
    Whatdoes GASB stand for? Pardon my ignorance.

  12. #161

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    Oh heh great American songbook! Ah

  13. #162

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    Great American song book.

  14. #163

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    On James Taylor's new album American Standard:

    James Taylor's 'American Standard' Song by Song << American Songwriter

  15. #164
    I don't see harmonies of modern pop tunes as an obstacle to adaptation to jazz. They can be re-harmonized in the jazz style in ways to still support the melody.
    After all many GASB tunes were re-harmonized by jazz musicians.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 02-11-2020 at 07:02 AM.

  16. #165

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    It's mostly the sucky melodies.

  17. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yeah, ATTYA is OK. It's better in 3, because there the rhythmic predictability of the melody is less pronounced. Not my favourite standard from a melodic standpoint although jazz musicians like the harmony. Probably not my favourite Kern.

    You know they say familiarity breeds contempt... And while any halfway competent jazz amateur can play ATTYA after a fashion, obviously there's some difference between someone who can do it really fucking well (let alone Parker or someone) and someone who has recently learned the 'right' scales from an Aebersold...

    Of course, the fact is that distinction may be completely lost an audience... (I remember that episode of Friends with Ross's music) but actually I don't think it is. People can tell the difference between something rhythmically engaged and something meandering, for one.

    (Now, go back in time and you'll find basic repeating forms such as Chaconnes that formed the basis of many simpler pieces in the baroque era. Or in the case of Bach, an honest to god masterpiece.)

    But yeah, classical music is obviously good, attracting funding from corporate sources and wealthy patrons for instance... Contemporary concert music, not so much because it sounds very different and hasn't become part of the cultural furniture. Tends to more subsidised by the state...

    The fact that you mention Sonata form suggests you are not massively familiar with trends in New Music - and you yourself are obviously an interested party, a musician? So there you go...



    Yeah, I hear you.

    Division of labour, specialisation of tasks, strict hierarchy allow certain things to be achieved that could not happen with a looser organisation, Mahler symphonies, Wagner operas and so on....

    (We could of course compare to the industrial revolution, which is when these changes happened in music... The orchestra to some extent models the social structures of the time.)

    It's interesting hearing you say this stuff after a weekend of hearing classical music educators complain about how students are taught to always revere the composer, never write or improvise their own music, never develop strong aural skills and essentially train only to interpret the notes on the page...

    And did you know job satisfaction for orchestral professionals is on a par with refuse collectors?

    OTOH today's musicians are increasingly very versatile freelancers. They can play pretty much anything.

    It's also worth pointing out that many of the composers the lay audience may have heard of - Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Schubert etc - were also performers, and many improvisers. Their artistic world did not much resemble that of the present day, which is largely inherited from the 19th century. The division of labour of this kind is more 19th century than it is 17th or 18th. Orchestras were also smaller, the conductor did not exist as a specialised role, and so on...

    But I think bottom line if you are saying - jazz musicians are not trained to be good composers, why would we expect them to be so, I would agree. There are fantastic composers in jazz of course - ranging from Jelly Roll Morton to Maria Schneider... but to expect all jazz improvisors to be good composers of original material is silly... You have to respect the craft of composition and shed the fuck out of it to be good at it.

    But I would also say, the notion that a performer can not also be a strong composer and they have to be two separate things is obviously untrue, and I feel I've shown that here.
    Better in 3? What do you mean trio form? Pardon my ignorance!

  18. #167

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    SWB? Sweet Georgia Brown?

  19. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Fz2016
    Better in 3? What do you mean trio form? Pardon my ignorance!
    I think he meant 3/4 time (or 6/8).

  20. #169
    On that note, I'm working on playing tunes in 3/4 time without making them sound like corny ballroom music. I can't seem to avoid cheese to save my life when playing some of the standards in 3/4 time. Needs work.

  21. #170

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    I write my own standards and have fun to play them

  22. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhythmisking
    Absolutely. The pseudo-historical timeline I laid out wasn't intended to be absolute or even historically accurate, but to describe a general movement through time of the relationship of jazz players and audiences and the often overlooked/underappreciated role of composition.

    There was a time period where jazz was popular, and jazz music was a part of popular music. But my point is that compositions such as the Ellington/Strayhorn tunes; indisputably "jazz songs", were first and foremost beautiful compositions. The compositional intention was primarily to create a beautiful song, not quickly dash off a framework to blow over with melody almost as an afterthought.

    Great iconic jazz musicians from the bop era forward were and are celebrated (and studied) for their improvisations first, and their compositions second -if at all. Certainly exceptions (Ellington) abound; no doubt. But I'm of the opinion that the evolution of jazz as a genre ended up in the weeds (as far as it being popular music) when the importance of song composition fell away under the dazzle and sparkle of expertly executed vertical improvisation.

    I believe a large part of the reason iconic masters such as Parker, Hawkins, Young, etc are perceived as being as great as they are is because their work took place at the overlap of horizontal and vertical improv styles. They grew up and were influenced by players whose improvisations were based on a song's melody and tended to be thematic melody-like lines that moved through changes. As they started formulating their lines referencing the changes more strongly, they still had the foundation of the primacy of a cohesive melodic thread guiding them. As newer, contemporary players study them, they concentrate largely on the chord/scale elements of their playing and also view their own improvisation primarily in terms of scalar relationships to chords, and my assumption is that this is the emphasis of what is generally taught academically in jazz studies: Use the correct patterns over the individual chords as quickly and accurately as possible and bingo, you're playing jazz!

    There's a quote I really like from Herb Alpert in the June issue of Jazz Times. He's talking about his foundation and the selection process for giving out grants. He says "There are two kinds of musicians: first, the guys who play the right notes, who know where they're going and are very precise. You listen to them and you stare out the window because nothing's really happening.Then there are those other guys who are searching for the right notes. The artists we choose are not the beat of the week; they're the ones who took the road less traveled."
    Another couple big examples Thelonious Monk and Charles Mingus!

  23. #172

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    Dizzy Gillespie could be argued as a great composer!

  24. #173

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    I tried to post a link but can't get it to work. Nevermind...
    Last edited by morroben; 03-29-2020 at 02:09 PM. Reason: can't get link to work

  25. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by rictroll
    In terms of approaching the pop tunes of the 60's as vehicles for jazz - I think most of those efforts end up sounding more like the Ventures than modern jazz. While harmony can always be 'hipped up', the lack of interesting melodies is a steep hill.
    Indeed.

    There is new music out there right now which falls on deaf ears, for some mysterious reason

    I also think that the age of "standards" as such has long passed.

  26. #175

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    Broadway tunes were usually the songs that became standards.

    Or great songs became Broadway tunes.

    Chicken or the egg?

  27. #176

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    SpongeBob Squarepants - The Broadway Musical......

    Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 04-02-2020 at 03:54 AM.

  28. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    SpongeBob Squarepants - The Broadway Musical......
    Go for it!

  29. #178

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    So IIRC this thread ended up being boomers moaning about jazz musicians not playing boomer tunes (which are apparently new despite being 40+ years old), oblivious to the fact that many jazzers, boomers or otherwise, play boomer tunes all the frickin time, and then being all butt hurt when I revealed this fact.

    i love this forum.


  30. #179

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    There should be some new standards. There are some really beautiful tunes out there.

    an unsollicited list of “new standards” that I love to play.


    • African Skies (Brecker)
    • Sing a Song of Song (Kenny Garrett)
    • Unti or Kind Folk (Kenny Wheeler)
    • Faraway (Joshua Redman)
    • Country, Innocence, Prism (Jarrett)
    • Mercy Street, Tempo de Amor (arr. By Herbie Hancock)
    • To Wisdom the Prize (Larry Willis)
    • Children of Harlem (Larry Willis)
    • If it’s magic (arr by Peter Martin)
    • There’s no sunshine when she’s gone (arr. by Billy Childs)
    • Kid Charlemagne (arr. By Rachel Z)
    • You’re Still the One (arr by John Scofield)
    • Spring ain’t here (Pat Metheny)


    new jazz standards on Spotify

    there are tons of others, maybe...
    Last edited by Djang; 04-12-2020 at 11:45 AM.

  31. #180

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    OK any candidate to be a standard type tune has to tick a few boxes

    - strong melody (well known is a bonus) which tends to lead to
    - adaptability of material (can be reharmed, arranged on the fly etc)
    - good vehicle for improvisation
    - well known by musicians, can be played on a gig with minimal or no rehearsal.

    OK so most contemporary jazz compositions often fall short on more than one of these points.

    Basically, one big issue I have with playing jazz compositions of the past few years is that they are often hard to adapt - so it feels like you are trying to recreate the original (tbh that can be a problem with standards and famous versions too, it’s - tendency here to do exactly that.)

    but it can be done.

    One way out of the last point is to slowly introduce a tune to a community of musicians over time.

    This has happened with several of the Middle Eastern tunes that my friend and collaborator cellist Shirley Smart plays. These tunes formed part of the jazz repertoire in Jerusalem where she lived for several years but in London. They tick all those boxes despite being very much not GASB tunes.

    (interestingly these tunes were regarded as ‘world music’ repertoire to be played ‘authentically’ when they hit London. In Israel they were jazz repertoire, to be improvised on and personalised. On fact some of the musicians who came up with the tunes may have thought of themselves as jazz musicians. That’s an interesting thing - local cultural differences.)
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-13-2020 at 10:08 AM.

  32. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    OK any candidate to be a standard type tune has to tick a few boxes

    - strong melody (well known is a bonus) which tends to lead to
    - adaptability of material (can be reharmed, arranged on the fly etc)
    - good vehicle for improvisation
    - well known by musicians, can be played on a gig with minimal or no rehearsal.
    There is another box that tunes in the GASB tick: they have lyrics. Most were written to be sung, and those that were originally just tunes had lyrics added after the fact (e.g. Stella by Starlight, Ellington's Never No Lament). Of course, not all "standards" are from the GASB, by any means.

  33. #182

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    Most of the tunes we think of as jazz standards were pop tunes, often from theater or movies, which were later given a jazz treatment.

    I recently looked at some song lists on the sites of wedding bands. I didn't know most of the tunes, but I don't listen to pop. Apparently, younger people know a lot of them. But jazz musicians have not, afaik, adapted many. That may be because song structure is more variable, pop music is much broader than before (so is jazz) --more styles, artists and songs.We aren't all listening to the same handful of playlist tunes on a few radio stations.

    Hip/hop songs don't lend themselves to older jazz styles -- maybe somebody will break through that apparent barrier (I'd imagine it's been done already and I'm just unaware).

    And, then, there are some jazz players who do pop tunes. I sat in with a group like that recently -- they did Just The Two Of Us, Feel Like Making Love, Oye Como Va and some other tunes that, while not all that new, weren't carved into stone by the Real Book either.

  34. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    This is more a history question perhaps. Why is it that the tradition of basing jazz tunes on contemporary popular music ended after 20's and 30's?
    I get that jazz lost interest in being the music of dance halls (or may be the other way around*), but bebop and hard bop players (and beyond) continued to play these standards. It seems like since the bebop era, jazz musicians are expected to write their originals and play the standards more out of respect for tradition. Of course new standards were added after the 30's but they are almost always originals of jazz greats like Giant Steps, So What or Full House, not popular music of the time.
    Why don't people use tunes like Smells like teen spirit or Another brick in the wall or Creep as vehicles for improvisation?
    Copyrights?
    I think that would be one way of expanding the jazz audience and create more gigs.

    * I read in an interview with Barry Harris that bebop players never intended their music not be danced to. He said he actually would regularly go hear Charlie Parker in dance halls.
    So my understanding has always been that the list of standards can vary based on location and the knowledge of songs within a group. So for me and my friends we do have a list of standards but it seems formed of mainly 90s Hip Hop and Neo-Soul, which of course is hugely influenced by Jazz from an earlier period (as well as other influences).

    But if you take a song like "the World is Yours" by Pete Rock (which admittedly is derived from Ahmad Jamal's Patterns) or any number of J Dilla beats and the amount of times it's been used as the basis for improvisation amongst many modern Jazz players of the millenial generation, you could argue that it's essentially a standard for this group of people no?

  35. #184

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    Keith Richards pointed out in an interview that when rock bands in the mid to late 1960s became the new fashion. They also basically were the players ,writers,producers ,etc.
    And while they still continued to use outside resources like studio musicians, producers, and writers. This really was a huge paradigm shift to what had been the norm up u til they arrived.

  36. #185

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    A jazz combo interpreting a rock song is in danger of appearing whimsical.

  37. #186

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    If you fucking play it like you mean it it's really not an issue.

    But then there's your problem with modern jazz all over...

  38. #187

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    A Standard is a song that lasts the test of time. Even if they appear to be Corny like "You Are the Sunshine of My Heart" by Stevie Wonder.
    I remember when this came out, and older Jazz musicians embrace this song on many gigs I attended or played on.

    The same can be said of Billy Joel's "Just the Way You Are", Leon Russell's "Masquerade ", Beatles " Yesterday", and some others as well.
    These become standards in the Great American Songbook. Even if a Brit wrote them.

  39. #188

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    Even Barry Harris plays Stevie Wonder

  40. #189

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    Thanks for the correction, old age is creeping in. And yes I know it makes one very crabby!

  41. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    If you fucking play it like you mean it it's really not an issue.

    But then there's your problem with modern jazz all over...
    Steady, the Buffs.

  42. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    These become standards in the Great American Songbook. Even if a Brit wrote them.
    Like Cherokee you mean?

  43. #192

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    ‘i can’t make you love me’

  44. #193
    A nice Coldplay jazz cover. Unlikely to become a standard however:
    Last edited by Tal_175; 07-20-2020 at 08:29 AM.

  45. #194

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    New standards? Not all songs are created equal, but, let’s say, there’s always a good song to be found.
    I had a go at Elliott Murphy’s Waltz n°2. It’s a great song, I find myself humming it all day long and it withstands every treatment,
    I am a guitar player since youth, but recently fell in love with piano. I just wished the feeling was mutual.

  46. #195
    IMO the main point of having standards is not the performers, it's the listeners. The more listeners know the melody of a tune, the more they can enjoy the solos. If you don't know the melody, then the solo is just bla-bidi-guk-duba. It's rare that a player can create spontaneous composition detached from the tune that is very memorable.

    The problem with the current standards is that, most listeners, especially the younger generation (people under 70 lol) do not know the original tunes. So the solos get a bit too demanding for the average listener outside of being background music for candle light dinners.

    I hadn't heard of most of the jazz standards before I stared listening to and playing jazz. The solos I enjoy the most are solos over tunes that I learned well enough to perform at least at a jam session.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 08-26-2020 at 03:07 PM.

  47. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    bla-bidi-guk-duba

    Well said .. That is actually totally spot on

  48. #197

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    New “standards?” That time has passed. You can’t touch brilliance with mediocrity.

  49. #198

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    Observation, perhaps made earlier: the 60s ushered in the guitar as main composing instrument, displacing the piano. make of it what you will.

  50. #199

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    But if there were a catalog of music worthy of becoming a jazz standard it would come from the Motown or Philly catalog. Come on, both of these catalogs were performed by jazz musicians.

  51. #200

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    bla-bidi-guk-duba.
    Oddly enough, that is the title of one of the most popular standards in the Great Outer Mongolian Song Book.