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  1. #1

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    I hear this a lot around here: When the first A-part ends with he tonic in bar 7 the guys sub it with the III- VI7 and then go to the standard II- V7 turnaround.

    As this is a completely legal substitution it kind of starts bothering me if you do it in every single standard that allows such thing.

    Sounds cliché and corny to me if you do it every time.

    Is this just me?
    Last edited by DonEsteban; 12-31-2018 at 08:01 AM.

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  3. #2

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    III7 if the melody allows

  4. #3

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    Yes of course, but every time????

    Reason for asking.. I played that gig last night and it was in every ***** song we did and I started to get annoyed by it.
    Couldn't we play the nice smoothing tonic there at least once in while...

    Or maybe I'm overreacting, have played Misty a bit to often...

    --- The ultimate answer to almost all guitar questions: "Practice more!" ---

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonEsteban View Post
    Yes of course, but every time????

    Reason for asking.. I played that gig last night and it was in every ***** song we did and I started to get annoyed by it.
    Couldn't we play the nice smoothing tonic there at least once in while...

    Or maybe I'm overreacting, have played Misty a bit to often...
    I try not to do anything automatically.

    But I am a devotee of Peter Bernstein, and he thinks the tonic chord is basically the most boring chord you can play. Your aim at least in the A is to avoid and keep the harmony in flux. Certainly there are other ways of doing it that than 3 6 2 5, but that’s the aesthetic.

    For modern jazz that is.

    But then a V pedal is quite nice sometimes. Something simple. Too much fourthwise motion gets on my tits.

    People reading standards from (often quite shitty iReal) charts and realising the chord symbols pedantically and non reactively is usually a recipe for boring harmony. Playing a solo over a piano comping like that is one thing they can torture me with in the after life.

  6. #5

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    I play some sort of turnaround to ii every time-- that being said the options are limitless
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  7. #6

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    Do you sub the tonic in bar 7? How often?

    I sub the scotch in the bar round the corner now and then... oh, sorry.

    Depends on the tune. If the tonic sounds good, I keep it, usually as I6 - V7+ or something. If not it becomes a 2-bar t/a. Doesn't have to be 3-6-2-5 either. Might have some tritones in it, diminisheds, blues-type subs (7#9s) or something chromatic.

    The melodies of most tunes at the end of the A part often don't resolve to the tonic note anyway, they tend to hover. How they hover would dictate the chord type too.

    Depends on the tune, definitely. Lots of options.

  8. #7

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    P.S. And just because the lead sheet says play the tonic note at the end of [A] doesn't mean you have to!

  9. #8

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    I think anything done every time gets old really quickly, even the hippest subs

  10. #9

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    During the head, or when blowing?

    What tunes? I don't like giving any sort of answer without context...
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
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    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  11. #10

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    Style - way in which something is done, expressed, performed

    Cliche - expression, idea, or element of an artistic work which has become overused to the point of losing its original meaning or effect, even to the point of being trite or irritating, especially when at some earlier time it was considered meaningful or novel

    It's a challenge developing the musical judgement to perform in the jazz style avoiding jazz cliches and then suggesting it to others.

    Best you can really do is lead by example, disarming bouncy forth and fifth moves with tri-tone chromaticism, disguising the hard starkness of some chords by softening them with voicing, and if all else fails, suggesting, "Try this."
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonEsteban View Post
    I hear this a lot around here: When the first A-part ends with he tonic in bar 7 the guys sub it with the III- VI7 and then go to the standard II- V7 turnaround.

    As this is a completely legal substitution it kind of starts bothering me if you do it in every single standard that allows such thing.

    Sounds cliché and corny to me if you do it every time.

    Is this just me?
    Doing anything repetitively like that is how it becomes cliché and corny. Everything should be done judiciously.
    Beauty is as close to terror as we can well endure. -Rainer Maria Rilke

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    During the head, or when blowing?
    Always, head, solos...

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    What tunes?
    "Girl from Ipanema" for example. They end the A-part always with Am7 D7 Gm7 C7

    Just doesn't sound right to me though of course it's not technically wrong...

    --- The ultimate answer to almost all guitar questions: "Practice more!" ---

  14. #13

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    Oh that sucks for GFI. Annoying.

  15. #14

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    The most popular one is Am7/D7b9 - Gm7/C7b9. The 'real' Bossa site has that too, only in Db.

    Others are Am7/D7b9 - Gm7/Gb7#11 and Am7/D7b9b5 - Gm7/C7b9b5.

    But just Am7/D7 - Gm7/C7... no.

    Which brings up the question: exactly what is a 7b9b5 chord anyway?

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Oh that sucks for GFI. Annoying.
    Just tried it. Hated it.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  17. #16

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    I'm confused... is the Am7 D7 Gm7 C7 replacing the Fmaj7- Gbmaj7 at the very end of the A part, or is it replacing the part right before that.

    Sounds horrible both ways.
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  18. #17

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    They go:

    | Fmaj | ./. | G7 | ./. |
    | Gm7 | C7 | Am7 D7 | Gm7 C7|

    --- The ultimate answer to almost all guitar questions: "Practice more!" ---

  19. #18

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    I see... they are kind of really bopping the bossa right out of that song, too bad, cause even if you smooth it out as Am7 - G#dim - Gm7 - F# 79b5 is starts to sound more like "Georgia" (still not very bossa)...

    If they are really into that turnaround, maybe you could suggest that on bassa tunes like this they do more like A13/G - Daug/C - G13/F - Caug/B into Fmaj9 - G13/F... for a more Bossa sound?
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."