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  1. #1

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    So I was watching this Mike Moreno video:



    And the point that landed home for me is when he talks about the artists you are inspired by and learning their music - properly and in detail.

    And it made me think of the essential passivity with which I’ve learned repertoire. Basically started learning the obvious tunes because that’s what the jazz players at the jams were playing, later on learned quite a few of the early and gypsy jazz style tunes because that’s what the band leader wanted. And although I know a few hundred tunes, there’s only a few by each composer.

    Because of this I feel I’ve had a very passive career so far, and I feel now is the time to start driving it in the direction I want. I like the idea that the starting point for this is falling in love with music and getting close to it, rather than just learning stuff for a gig (though you do that too.)

    I’m not saying it’s all like that - I’ve made more of an effort to learn tunes I enjoy as a matter of course, but I feel I could still make this more of the centre of my practice instead of bits here and there.

    In any case I think of younger students who can play very well but know almost no repertoire. I think it’s worth asking them the same question Moreno asks in this video. And we prescribe them the same ten tunes everyone learns.... it’s a bad pattern I think.

    What are your thoughts regarding your relationships with tunes and repertoire?

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  3. #2

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    Play what you love, I've you can't sing it you don't love it. If you can't sing it you shouldn't play it. If you can't work out the basic harmony from singing it you don't understand harmony. If you can't transpose the harmony it you don't know your instrument. If you find reasons to avoid these things you are missing out.

    D.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freel
    Play what you love, I've you can't sing it you don't love it. If you can't sing it you shouldn't play it. If you can't work out the basic harmony from singing it you don't understand harmony. If you can't transpose the harmony it you don't know your instrument. If you find reasons to avoid these things you are missing out.

    D.
    In my experience these things don’t have that much to do with love. I can sing the melodies and transpose scores of tunes I feel nothing for at all just because that’s what I’ve played on thousands of gigs.

    It’s important to be able to do your job obviously, if it is your job. Amateurs have the privilege of never having to play music they don’t love.

    However, that’s really sad if you lose your connection with tunes. I need start by writing a list of tunes I learned entirely out of love. And that will be the start of my personal repertoire. Obvious really, but easy to forget.

    What’s your list?

  5. #4

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    Oh me I'm just an amateur. Anything I have ever sang in my life.

    D.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freel
    Oh me I'm just an amateur. Anything I have ever sang in my life.

    D.
    Is there one or more composer/musician that has particularly inspired you?

  7. #6

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    One day when I was working as a music therapist (though I have not the qualification) in an acute stay mental hospital a woman there started to tell her life story.

    She did not use pitch but the most lyrical story emerged. Beautifully paced and the language all in her own idiom but forming the most wonderful verse and from the very outset it was clear that it would be perfect in structure and form.

    There were around eight of us, myself, the Occupational Therapist and some other patients.

    I had the misfortune of having a guitar in my hands and as she started there were some chords ringing and I knew that she and I were in this together and that she needed me.

    I tried my best.

    D.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    So I was watching this Mike Moreno video:



    And the point that landed home for me is when he talks about the artists you are inspired by and learning their music - properly and in detail.

    And it made me think of the essential passivity with which I’ve learned repertoire. Basically started learning the obvious tunes because that’s what the jazz players at the jams were playing, later on learned quite a few of the early and gypsy jazz style tunes because that’s what the band leader wanted. And although I know a few hundred tunes, there’s only a few by each composer.

    Because of this I feel I’ve had a very passive career so far, and I feel now is the time to start driving it in the direction I want. I like the idea that the starting point for this is falling in love with music and getting close to it, rather than just learning stuff for a gig (though you do that too.)

    I’m not saying it’s all like that - I’ve made more of an effort to learn tunes I enjoy as a matter of course, but I feel I could still make this more of the centre of my practice instead of bits here and there.

    In any case I think of younger students who can play very well but know almost no repertoire. I think it’s worth asking them the same question Moreno asks in this video. And we prescribe them the same ten tunes everyone learns.... it’s a bad pattern I think.

    What are your thoughts regarding your relationships with tunes and repertoire?
    You just play a kind of jazz that is very popular so it's kind of "easy", the more you play it, the best you play it. You have just to figure out you play it with better quality than before. Maybe people call you for that point.
    I know a bunch of guitarists, they all play the thing called "gypsy" jazz maybe except gypsies, they all play the same stuff but you are on the top of the basket, that's better, but you don't figure out about anything because it's something that is built slowly, so you see nothing.
    About repertoire, I just learn tunes on the bass, to play them without score, without a paper where the chords are written, without the help of a tablet or a smart phone.
    Technically it's good because you become functional even if I don't have any gig as a jazz bassist... just jam sessions time to time... I want to be functional.
    Why ? There is a snobbish tradition or illusion that says you have to play the upright bass.
    They sometimes call me as a saxophonist for a gig, but I don't dig it a lot sometimes because I would like the rhythm session to be a bit different, difficult.
    Just think about you did and are doing, it is not empty.

  9. #8

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    One of the things I loved about Joe Pass was the incredible depth and breadth of his knowledge of tunes. What jazz guitarist records "That's Earl, Brother"? On ACOUSTIC guitar? Joe's album Appasionato remains for me one of the most impressive sets of tunes, played in an acoustic archtop setting (Joe played John Pisano's dad's Epiphone!) that swings and bops like crazy. "The Red Door" "Stuffy" "When It's Sleepy Time Down South" and on it goes.

    And he could change them up and play them many different ways, solo, ensemble, duet, accompanying a vocalist, side-man. We should all love the music that much!

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    What are your thoughts regarding your relationships with tunes and repertoire?
    In short answer- I personally don't see knowing and constantly learning new tunes as a virtuous path so to speak. You kinda do it by necessity to get more gigs that brings you money, and that's that for me. I'm not saying I don't like it, I love more than quite a few tunes and enjoy playing them. But I don't see it as an ultimate achievement, it's just a job. Frankly, I only work on tunes that I need for a particular gig.

    My point is, what is much more important for me, is to write your own shit! Work on your sound and concept, try to find a niche, and I love doing it through writing. I noticed a lot of enthusiasm from a crowd when you play an original tune. Much more than when you play another version of Body And Soul.

    It may have something to do that I play shitty versions of standards or just mediocre, and on originals I can really deliver... Maybe, but whatever entertains people better, whatever works.

    I guess not really short, haha, but my answer- add as much original music as you can to your repertoire . You'll love it, and people will love it, and it's better for the universe.

  11. #10

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  12. #11

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    I think yall overthinking this. It comes down to - what do you love? What turns you on. Doesn’t have to be one style.

    If you can’t answer that question and have dug into it some depth - I think that’s pretty revealing. And to be honest, I had trouble articulating an answer. The answer is there but it wasn’t fresh in my mind. I don’t want to be that sort of musician because you get pulled this way and that.

    Life is too short for that sort of thing.

    Of course your thing might not be that easy to pigeonhole, but if you wish to work you will end up getting pigeonholed as a specialist. It may as well be in an area you really like.

    Some areas are tougher than others. There’s more paying cover band gigs than there are bebop gigs for instance.

    I don’t agree with everything Moreno said - I don’t think you have to play one strict style necessarily though I can see it’s a good route (I don’t think Frissell ever did for instance, perhaps I’m wrong) but I do think you have to go deep and have some identity in your music if you want it be worth listening to.

    Checking out music and making an emotional connection with it is key, and I needed to be reminded of that.
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-27-2018 at 07:09 PM.

  13. #12

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    Joe Pass was a guitar genius!!!

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think yall overthinking this. It comes down to - what do you love? What turns you on. Doesn’t have to be one style.

    If you can’t answer that question and have dug into it some depth - I think that’s pretty revealing. And to be honest, I had trouble articulating an answer. The answer is there but it wasn’t fresh in my mind. I don’t want to be that sort of musician because you get pulled this way and that.

    Life is too short for that sort of thing.

    Of course your thing might not be that easy to pigeonhole, but if you wish to work you will end up getting pigeonholed as a specialist. It may as well be in an area you really like.

    Some areas are tougher than others. There’s more paying cover band gigs than there are bebop gigs for instance.

    I don’t agree with everything Moreno said - I don’t think you have to play one strict style necessarily though I can see it’s a good route (I don’t think Frissell ever did for instance, perhaps I’m wrong) but I do think you have to go deep and have some identity in your music if you want it be worth listening to.

    Checking out music and making an emotional connection with it is key, and I needed to be reminded of that.
    Go deep is a must. But go deep where, and how to find the identity? Start analyzing hundreds of tunes, trying to find love for some that you don't dig yet? Or go deep to yourself and ask what do you REALLY like in music, discard other stuff( to a degree, of course), and just focus on that?

    I think both are legit. Personally I just focus on what I like to hear from myself, the other stuff is just work. Not that I wouldn't care if I do a bad job, I always try to play and treat any gig the best I can, but my alone practice time I know where are my priorities are.

    Re: Gypsy jazz, I never claim to be a GJ player, but a lot of the tunes I love to play are from GJ book of standards. I have a genuine love and can play it all day, tunes like Moonglow, but again, I don't treat it in GJ style. I use telecaster with a bigsby through a dirty enough amp, and that's my statement. (Naturally, I'm talking about when it's my own gig!)

    Another question how much do you really need to listen and connect to a lot of music to be able to create something good of your own? I'm honestly not sure anymore. Watched an Eddie Van Halen interview, and when he's asked what new inspiring music he has discovered, he said he doesn't listen to music, not since his Eric Clapton obsession days. I thought he was saying the truth too! I know I know, that's rock, and this is jazz, but still, kinda amazing...

  15. #14

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    My thoughts about tunes and repertoire:

    I like a lot of different kinds of music. I prefer to play jazz. I like blues and rock, but I never seek out situations to play those styles.

    I play in two horn bands (big band and octet, all American jazz) and I enjoy both -- but I don't listen to that type of music much. Between those two bands, that's a working repertoire of maybe 125 tunes.

    I go to a regular jam session. The repertoire there is every Real Book ever and charts that people bring in. Mostly, I don't listen to that kind of music either, but I did at one time.

    I host one session a week, and this is where my heart is. It's all Brazilian. I have amassed a book with about 160 arrangements. This is the stuff I listen to when I have time. I love this music.

    So, that's a pretty large number of tunes that I play with some regularity, some of which I like and some of which I love.

    There aren't all that many which I heard and then thought, I have to transcribe that! But there are some like that.
    Some are from an arranger I know. I have charts for tunes that I heard and loved and found charts on line.

    This does tend to focus on a few composers whose work I was exposed to by a teacher and loved.

    I also like to sing, and do so on gigs (usually as a one-off novelty, since I'm not really a singer) so I have a vocal book of about 20 tunes. I pick them mostly for interesting or funny lyrics.

    I don't gig the Brazilian music very often. If I were to get a call today, my set list would be based on the tunes that I feel have the greatest emotional expression -- at least, to me. I don't think any two people would pick the same ones. And, I like to hear a lot of music that doesn't strike me as especially emotionally deep when I play it -- but does when other people play it.

    So, for me it's a mix of passive and active tune acquisition. The passive part is because I enjoy being a sideman and I don't turn down opportunities to play with players I admire. The active part is because some music speaks to me emotionally.

  16. #15

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    Do you see yourself as an artist? Or a gigging musician? Both would be nice, a gigging artist!

    For me, an artist doesn't just go deep into a specific style or composer, but goes deep into his own style, right? Some folks know their own fave style early on, most probably don't. You can learn a bunch of tunes (even if you don't really like some), then narrow it down to a style or 2, and maybe eventually invent your own stylistic tweaks to the styles you're in deep with. Perhaps at this point one arrives as an "artist" - gigging or not...

    So if you wish to emerge as a true artist, then I suppose you have to shed (as in lose) some of the tunes you've learned, especially the ones you don't really like....

    Artist = Specialist.

  17. #16

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    Interesting topic! I guess I've always had a sort of 'twin track' approach to this. I've tried to learn at least some of the commonly played tunes. (But some I don't like so I didn't bother with them!). But at the same time, I couldn't resist learning some more obscure tunes just because they really appealed to me, even though I'll probably never play them with anyone.

    Some tunes I've learned in the second category are:
    Simple as That (by Peter Bernstein - funny that Moreno moaned about the PB fan who didn't learn any PB tunes!)
    Chant (Duke Pearson) - even done a video of this one! Inspired by seeing Bernstein/Goldings/Stewart trio play it.
    Lost (Wayne Shorter) - love the weird chord changes. But can't really solo on it very well yet!
    Signal (Jimmy Raney)
    Dee's Dilemma (Mal Waldron)
    Night Bird (Enrico Pieranunzi)
    For Minors Only (Jimmy Heath)

    All these I worked out by ear as I don't have any charts for them. (Although I think I got the changes for Signal from Jon Raney's blog or something). The last 3 are there simply because I love the way Chet Baker plays them.

    It's kind of a nice treat to indulge oneself with tunes like this.

    Mind you I am just an amateur so I can do whatever I like!

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Interesting topic! I guess I've always had a sort of 'twin track' approach to this. I've tried to learn at least some of the commonly played tunes. (But some I don't like so I didn't bother with them!). But at the same time, I couldn't resist learning some more obscure tunes just because they really appealed to me, even though I'll probably never play them with anyone.

    Some tunes I've learned in the second category are:
    Simple as That (by Peter Bernstein - funny that Moreno moaned about the PB fan who didn't learn any PB tunes!)
    Chant (Duke Pearson) - even done a video of this one! Inspired by seeing Bernstein/Goldings/Stewart trio play it.
    Lost (Wayne Shorter) - love the weird chord changes. But can't really solo on it very well yet!
    Signal (Jimmy Raney)
    Dee's Dilemma (Mal Waldron)
    Night Bird (Enrico Pieranunzi)
    For Minors Only (Jimmy Heath)

    All these I worked out by ear as I don't have any charts for them. (Although I think I got the changes for Signal from Jon Raney's blog or something). The last 3 are there simply because I love the way Chet Baker plays them.

    It's kind of a nice treat to indulge oneself with tunes like this.

    Mind you I am just an amateur so I can do whatever I like!
    Yeah it’s really interesting from that standpoint. Moreno is almost advocating a high level amateur mind set. But I think this is an NYC jazz scene thing. Basically if you aren’t insanely passionate about jazz (and talented to boot) you aren’t going to be playing the modern jazz circuit.

    In London I’ve mentioned before that it’s possible to make a reasonable living playing if you get into the West End and sessions and so on. Many players get sucked into this and end up not playing much jazz. But until you get the money gig, you’ll probably do some jazz clubs etc.

    So the emphasis on being a well rounded player is almost the enemy of a jazz career lol. But many players here are able to play a number of styles to a high level.... (only problem to me is that jazz is not a style)

    (I suppose that also happens a bit in NYC with broadway and tv but there’s so many players who come just to play jazz otoh)

    The jazz players I know in london are able to do other gigs but tightly focussed on what they want to achieve. I think you have to be.

  19. #18
    Walter Inglis Anderson, an extraordinary Mississippi artist, had a really useful philosophy for this kind of thing. Basically, that it's the artist's "right" to pursue their art in its purest form without compromise , and that it's also societie's obligation to allow the artist this freedom to pursue an art that is mostly personal. In return...., it's the artist's obligation to produce a PORTION of consumer product. For Anderson, these were largely screenprints sold on weekends etc, and produced in bulk. Anyway, he really LIVED that life. He would go out to Horn Island for days or weeks at a time, or work on his private murals that no one would ever see in his lifetime etc. etc. From time to time sell too the community. I understand that music is never going to be AS private a pursuit, but I like the philosophical clarity that this way of thinking brings.

    The pursuit of personal passion of course is going to bleed over into the "other". Goes without saying probably. But I just feel like so many of these conversations get into EITHER/OR. There's a degree to which you HAVE to play to the people in front of you, without condescending or judging their tastes, I mean, if they're NOT artists. There's always that balance. I feel like some are only playing for other musicians. Meanwhile, others "sell out" at every level. At least that's the way they talk about it.

    Personally, I triy to let my passion drive the day job part as much as possible too. I mean, if the guy LEADING the group or PERFORMING isn't excited about what they're doing at SOME level, none of it works. I've been fortunate to be able to make a living and pursue the parts that are "just for me" . I'm always seeking the intersection of the two as much as possible.

  20. #19

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    Well I would sell out, but no-one's buying.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well I would sell out, but no-one's buying.
    It's hard to sell something new and original when the market is mostly interested in the same old recycled BS. The Post Modern Jukebox global success speaks for itself, for example.

    It seems to me it wasnt always like that, there were times when people were seeking for new and fresh as a way to consume art and music. 50' and 60's?

    Still, we own it to ourselves to keep trying

  22. #21

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    If I think about it, an extensive repertoir of standards learned well, with all intros and endings worked out is sure way to make a decent living as a pro.

    When I see guys like Vinnie Raniolo, that's top paying gigs in town, AND touring. To me it doesn't get any better, but also realization that I'm bound to get just bread crumbs from the table if I'm to compete at this level. Which still might be ok.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    It's hard to sell something new and original when the market is mostly interested in the same old recycled BS. The Post Modern Jukebox global success speaks for itself, for example.

    It seems to me it wasnt always like that, there were times when people were seeking for new and fresh as a way to consume art and music. 50' and 60's?

    Still, we own it to ourselves to keep trying
    PMJ is of course based on a (probably bad) idea that's hard to do well, done fantastically well IMO. They deserve their success in my book.... But I see your point... We've gone from the Beatles to ..... this?

    Unfortunately for the rest of us, its now an expectation and a MASSIVE troll because it remains a concept that is hard (or at least, work intensive) to do well.

    If someone else MD's the gig and does it well with good charts, I'm all for it... IF.

  24. #23

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    To address the second point, these cycles of nostalgia now are self consuming.

    One odd thing about the more recent wave of the '80s revival (which seems to have been underway now for at least 15 years) is that many of the creatives involved in this stuff are not old enough to remember it first time around. The guys who made Stranger Things are too young to remember '80s pop culture first hand.

    It's not like Stephen King, Zemeckis, Spielberg etc looking back to their childhoods in the '50s during the '80s, for instance.

    I think this is what has changed. Probably Adorno saw it all coming decades ago, when he wasn't attacking jazz for being commercial trash.

  25. #24

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    I honestly think the jazz tradition here, which isn't talked about a ton, is that you know the book of the people you want to work with. A really great jazz bassist who's now a great singer songwriter, Alan Hampton, talked about making a list of people he wanted to play with, learning their book, apparently this is how (among other things) Alan got the gig playing with Andrew Bird. I remember reading a similar interview with Pat Metheny where he tells new members to basically learn the first 3-4 PMG albums because it all comes out of that. I am guessing that when Pat says that, he isn't also handing you the music.

    I was somewhat frustrated recently because I have spent (and continue to spend) a bunch of time learning songs I love, standards, in a lot of keys and memorizing things, and there doesn't seem to be much call to do that kind of thing anymore. and then lo and behold, last week I went to a friends' gig, was asked to sit in, and didn't embarrass myself playing a cole porter tune in the singer's preferred key.

    that said, I feel like every single time I go to a jam session, some tune gets called I barely remember or am rusty on.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald
    I honestly think the jazz tradition here, which isn't talked about a ton, is that you know the book of the people you want to work with. A really great jazz bassist who's now a great singer songwriter, Alan Hampton, talked about making a list of people he wanted to play with, learning their book, apparently this is how (among other things) Alan got the gig playing with Andrew Bird. I remember reading a similar interview with Pat Metheny where he tells new members to basically learn the first 3-4 PMG albums because it all comes out of that. I am guessing that when Pat says that, he isn't also handing you the music.

    I was somewhat frustrated recently because I have spent (and continue to spend) a bunch of time learning songs I love, standards, in a lot of keys and memorizing things, and there doesn't seem to be much call to do that kind of thing anymore. and then lo and behold, last week I went to a friends' gig, was asked to sit in, and didn't embarrass myself playing a cole porter tune in the singer's preferred key.

    that said, I feel like every single time I go to a jam session, some tune gets called I barely remember or am rusty on.
    Yes that's it. That's the NYC mindset too, I think, the hard hustle! Which artists do you want to play with? Learn their albums. Go up to them after a gig and say, 'I love your music, I've learned all your tunes, here's my name and number if you are ever stuck for a guitarist.'

    I don't really know any London musicians who have this approach... Well maybe a couple....