The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 41
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    who doing that?

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Not necessarily in all keys, but i do practice them in many keys, till i can play a tune by following the movements of the chords and the melodies regardless of key. It has been one of the best practices in order to learn to play and hear tunes and changes, whether comping or soloing

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    If you can’t instantly transpose a vocal standard or other simple tune to all 12 you’ve learned it wrong.*

    *a lot of the older stuff in my rep hasn’t been learned this way, and I struggle transposing bebop heads at full tempo.... however that is a great exercise.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    I just started making it a part of my daily practice. Why? I read yet another interview with a great musician talking about what a valuable lesson it was for them to learn a particular tune in every key.

    I started with simple tunes I know well- all of me, blue monk, D-natural blues. It definitely has given me a deeper feel for the tunes and facility with improvising over them. That said, I put in a lot of time the past two years practicing and if I had attempted this earlier, it would have been very frustrating.

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    It's the most relevant ear training for the skill of improvising. Any fool can think of a tune, finding it on the guitar is the hard part, transposing makes you practice finding the tune you have in your mind's ear.

    Moving a single fingering up and down the neck is absolutely pointless though, no thought needed so no learning.

    D.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    This was the mainstay to my ability to see all tunes as relationships of chords in convergence with a target. Kinda like getting the big picture from the beginning. Now I pretty much know all my tunes by ear and the salient divergence from key as what and where the interesting contours are. It then becomes a matter of "What tune do you want to play and what key?"
    It's what I call Roman Numeral thinking because that's a relative reference system as opposed to the absolute reference of letter note names.
    Really powerful way of seeing/hearing/playing.

    David

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    Not necessarily in all keys, but i do practice them in many keys, till i can play a tune by following the movements of the chords and the melodies regardless of key. It has been one of the best practices in order to learn to play and hear tunes and changes, whether comping or soloing
    Same here (as in not in all keys). What I tend to do is practice a song first in another key that forces me to use different chord voicings. E.g. A song in G major verses the same song in, say Eb major. One difference being that the root 6 string chord voicing of G major chords that sound fine in G may not sound 'right' in Eb. Therefore I had to come up with other voicings, and as I progressed inversion. So when I learned a new song in Eb I didn't go to the standard Eb voicing I was so used to.

    So even if I never actually play a song that is typically played in G major, in Eb major, this type of practiced helped me when playing a song that is typically in Eb major. I also found it a more 'fun' way to work inversions into my chord choices beyond the strictly theoretical.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    I had a teacher years ago that would have the class/group play tunes through various interval cycles.
    I found it very insightful and quite challenging.

    Every now and then I've played some informal small group sessions where the players were willing to play this game.
    I remember with a piano player friend, going through Body and Soul in 12 keys.
    Each key we played 3x, melody/solo 1/solo 2.
    It took a crazy long time, I think we took a break after about 8 keys before finishing up.
    I realized that shorter forms at medium+ tempos were a better choice for a social musical moment.

    I am not a fan in general of the Ireal app due to uninspiring instrumental sounds, lack of groove and engaging content
    but I love it's transpose each repeat by interval function because now I can play this game without stressing out my
    musical relationships.

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    It's a matter of how you learn the tunes. The answer is - don't work by chord or note names, work by degrees of the key.

    First of all, you have to know the degrees for all the keys. This could be rote learned (like times tables) but TBH I learned it through learning tunes. For instance, chord IVm in Ab major? Should be instant recall.

    Once this is internalised, learn a tune in chunks. Lets take Body and Soul.

    1) Learn the melody by ear. Sing it several different keys and get used to playing it in different keys and positions. If you want you can use chromatic solfege - Do Di Re Ma Mi etc - to learn the tune.

    Harmony

    2) Big chunks - AABA. B section has two key centres, up a half step, down a half step from the original key.
    This gives you the basic map. In fact, an experienced musician can probably work by ear with just this info.
    Esp. if you tell them it starts on II.

    3) Smaller chunks - take the A as an example:

    a) II-V-I
    b) IVm-IIIm-bIIIo7-IIm
    c) VIIm7b5 III7b9 VIm
    d) II7 V7 I

    c) and d) often go together BTW.

    Extensions are governed by the melody. For instance that V7+5 in the last module is from the note b3/Ma in the melody.

    It's important to go for the simplest basic vanilla harmony and build up from there any subs. For instance my modules don't match the Real Book changes, but the RB changes can be built on these.

    For the B, I'd go by the local key - and remember the modulations.

    The modules can be given names
    a) II-V-I
    b) Chromatic descent from IVm
    c) II-V-I relative minor
    d) A-Train

    For instance.

    This is how it works for standards. For more modern tunes, it may make sense to take a different approach.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Yes, I do it all the time. And if a non-talented, busy-office-job-working, late-music-taker-upper like me can do it then anyone can.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    I pick one tune a month and go thru as many keys as I can. Sometimes I get pretty far, sometimes just two or three...I find it very beneficial...

    I go through the cycle so it's not just "counting frets."

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    I prefer to play songs, the complete thing including walking bass line etc, with fingers, so impossible to learn in every key, for me anyway.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    A fun exercise is to pick a key and then play as many tunes back to back as you can in that key, essentially turning it into a medley (opening track to Rollins Plays for Bird album is a 7 tune medley in Eb which is where I got the idea).

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by coolvinny
    A fun exercise is to pick a key and then play as many tunes back to back as you can in that key, essentially turning it into a medley (opening track to Rollins Plays for Bird album is a 7 tune medley in Eb which is where I got the idea).
    I like to do it this way as well.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Yeah I don’t think it’s a matter of working harder on this case - It’s a matter of working smarter.

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Some things in music really are about the ‘grind’ as gamers call it. Scales, arps etc, tho.

    One of the best things a teacher can give is their advice on which is which.

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Play gigs with different singers and you'll learn them all..... whether you like it or not.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Bruce Foreman mentioned that most female singers like to do standards a fourth down. That’s probably a good start.

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It's a matter of how you learn the tunes. The answer is - don't work by chord or note names, work by degrees of the key.

    First of all, you have to know the degrees for all the keys. This could be rote learned (like times tables) but TBH I learned it through learning tunes. For instance, chord IVm in Ab major? Should be instant recall.

    Once this is internalised, learn a tune in chunks. Lets take Body and Soul.

    1) Learn the melody by ear. Sing it several different keys and get used to playing it in different keys and positions. If you want you can use chromatic solfege - Do Di Re Ma Mi etc - to learn the tune.

    Harmony

    2) Big chunks - AABA. B section has two key centres, up a half step, down a half step from the original key.
    This gives you the basic map. In fact, an experienced musician can probably work by ear with just this info.
    Esp. if you tell them it starts on II.

    3) Smaller chunks - take the A as an example:

    a) II-V-I
    b) IVm-IIIm-bIIIo7-IIm
    c) VIIm7b5 III7b9 VIm
    d) II7 V7 I

    c) and d) often go together BTW.

    Extensions are governed by the melody. For instance that V7+5 in the last module is from the note b3/Ma in the melody.

    It's important to go for the simplest basic vanilla harmony and build up from there any subs. For instance my modules don't match the Real Book changes, but the RB changes can be built on these.

    For the B, I'd go by the local key - and remember the modulations.

    The modules can be given names
    a) II-V-I
    b) Chromatic descent from IVm
    c) II-V-I relative minor
    d) A-Train

    For instance.

    This is how it works for standards. For more modern tunes, it may make sense to take a different approach.
    I think that's a good distillation of the usual approach.

    That said, I want to discuss, without recommending, a different approach.

    I've always found it hard to believe that a player that knows hundreds of tunes remembers them that way.

    What I think may be going on is this. People remember songs pretty easily. Most people can sing plenty of melodies.

    A good player, who knows a melody, can play it in any key simply by sound. You know the sound of the next note, so you can hear the interval and find that note. I'd argue that a player who can't do that isn't a jazz player yet -- it's the fundamental skill involved in getting a line from inside your head to the speaker.

    For me, that doesn't necessarily get me to the chords. I work on it regularly by trying to play standards without knowing what key I'm in. When it works, I'm hearing the interval and the chord type in the context of the tonal center -- from knowing the sound of the tune. For the sounds I can hear and identify, this allows me to play the tune in any key -- often not being aware of the key I'm in until I reach a tonic. And, there's nothing to forget.

    There are a few tunes where I have some linguistic mediation that I've learned someplace and still use. But there are more where I learned the roman numerals or whatever at some point, and can't remember them.

    There's a class at the Jazzschool in Berkeley in standards in 12 keys. A friend took it and said it was very helpful. Combo class with the teacher calling out random keys with no charts. Sink or swim. You find a way to get better.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I think that's a good distillation of the usual approach.

    That said, I want to discuss, without recommending, a different approach.

    I've always found it hard to believe that a player that knows hundreds of tunes remembers them that way.

    What I think may be going on is this. People remember songs pretty easily. Most people can sing plenty of melodies.

    A good player, who knows a melody, can play it in any key simply by sound. You know the sound of the next note, so you can hear the interval and find that note. I'd argue that a player who can't do that isn't a jazz player yet -- it's the fundamental skill involved in getting a line from inside your head to the speaker.

    For me, that doesn't necessarily get me to the chords. I work on it regularly by trying to play standards without knowing what key I'm in. When it works, I'm hearing the interval and the chord type in the context of the tonal center -- from knowing the sound of the tune. For the sounds I can hear and identify, this allows me to play the tune in any key -- often not being aware of the key I'm in until I reach a tonic. And, there's nothing to forget.

    There are a few tunes where I have some linguistic mediation that I've learned someplace and still use. But there are more where I learned the roman numerals or whatever at some point, and can't remember them.

    There's a class at the Jazzschool in Berkeley in standards in 12 keys. A friend took it and said it was very helpful. Combo class with the teacher calling out random keys with no charts. Sink or swim. You find a way to get better.
    Yeah, I think horn players tend to operate that way (what a great idea for a class BTW.)

    Eventually, we can reach the same situation with chords, but it takes time. You learn what a IVm sounds like etc, move to rel minor etc.

    Functional ear training is pretty close to what you describe, and the Bruce Arnold/Banacos school teaches this to a very high level. That's something I work on, but TBH I've really hit a wall on that stuff ATM, it's pretty dispiriting.

    Also bear in mind my general musicianship is pretty mediocre at best and what I have I have shedded HARD. so I need all the hacks & help I can get. The numeral stuff goes along with the ears. :-)

    I play with people who consistently baffle me with how good of a musician they are, and generally they have been playing music from an early age. Still, as long as it may continue I shall enjoy the roast.

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yeah, I think horn players tend to operate that way (what a great idea for a class BTW.)

    Eventually, we can reach the same situation with chords, but it takes time. You learn what a IVm sounds like etc, move to rel minor etc.

    Functional ear training is pretty close to what you describe, and the Bruce Arnold/Banacos school teaches this to a very high level. That's something I work on, but TBH I've really hit a wall on that stuff ATM, it's pretty dispiriting.

    Also bear in mind my general musicianship is pretty mediocre at best and what I have I have shedded HARD. so I need all the hacks & help I can get. The numeral stuff goes along with the ears. :-)

    I play with people who consistently baffle me with how good of a musician they are, and generally they have been playing music from an early age. Still, as long as it may continue I shall enjoy the roast.
    It was this issue, more than any other, that led me away from a career in music. I could tell that other people had a much easier time with this sort of thing. I could do it with melody, but not very well with chords. I didn't know that ear training even existed and had no idea how to improve.

    It remained a struggle.

    The one thing I found that might be helpful to someone else is this ....

    I noticed that pianists often didn't comp in block chords. Rather, they'd be playing little lines here and there and filling in the spaces with chords.

    It occurred to me that, if I did that, I could noodle around for a moment, until I got a note or two that sounded right. Sometimes, that's all you need. Some of Jim Hall's finest moments were two notes per change.

    So, the way this works is, you come to a chord change you don't know. Instead of grabbing a chord anyway and hoping for the best, or laying out -- you start, say, from a note in the chord you just played and play a little line of some kind. Use it to find a note that fits. You probably have a beat or two before anybody will notice anything is wrong. That could be a full second at a medium tempo. Plenty of time to play some notes.

    In what I imagine is a majority of cases, the current chord and the next chord have some notes in common and there's a guide tone line which outlines what changes. If you can recognize that when you stumble upon it, you're part way there. The tougher ones are major key changes. But, if you can hear, in your mind, that there's about to a major key change, then maybe you just run a chromatic line until you hear something helpful.

    That's to get a note or two.

    Tommy Tedesco played mostly three note chords. He wasn't the only one. So, you don't need the whole grip necessarily. Just one, two or three notes that outline the changes.

    To practice it, I suggest IRealPro (no, they don't give me any money). Pick a tune, set it for key changes by a 4th or 5th every chorus and a slow enough tempo that you have a shot at it. Keep at it, eventually you find a way to improve.

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    +1 on the three note thing. I feel fortunate that that has literally the first thing I ever learned of jazz guitar, courtesy of Dave Cliff.

    I teach my students that too. It’s so useful.

    In practice for standards there aren’t that many combinations and the melody usually gives you a lot of clues... but not always lol.

    Like I say I’ve shedded it a lot. I know a lot of ways to work on it. And I am surrounded by people who are better at it than me.

    These two things keep me rumbling along, and I like to learn.

    But if anyone has any advice on the Bruce Arnold two notes thing, I’m all ears. I’m stuck at 75%... some of the combinations are tough. I suspect it has to do with bad key retention.

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    It's probably heresy to say this, but I only occasionally take a song through all twelve keys, and I can't honestly say this has ever been part of my routine for all or most tunes. I do practice more than one key, though, for many (but not all) tunes, but my overall strategy is to triage this a bit. "Jazz standards" (as opposed to GASB tunes) are almost never called in anything other than the original key, so I tend to just practice that for stuff like Recordame or I Remember Clifford. I find that most GASB standards are in either C, G, F, Eb, Ab, or Bb, and singers almost invariably transpose to only one or the other of these. (e.g, a singer won't transpose My Foolish Heart to F#). So when I do multiple keys, I mostly limit it to those, and don't do the full cycle. That, plus there are a handful of tunes that have more than one "standard" key (I guess due to the RealBook vs the Tradition dichotomy), such as e.g., Green Dolphin Street in C or Eb; Autumn Leaves in Emin/G or Gmin/Bb; Here's that Rainy Day in F or G, major or minor. For those I often just learn those two keys. For the most part, this has given me enough grasp of functional harmony that I don't find transposing on the fly terribly difficult; I don't find that going to all twelve keys adds a whole lot of value (vs time spent), compared to practicing some portion of my repertoire in somewhere between 2 and 6 keys. I have limited practice time, and my main goals are to add more tunes to my repertoire, be able to do chord/melody with more tunes, and to learn to play more interesting stuff over those tunes. I just don't have time to do all that in all keys (or even >1 key) all the time.

    John

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    It's probably heresy to say this, but I only occasionally take a song through all twelve keys, and I can't honestly say this has ever been part of my routine for all or most tunes. I do practice more than one key, though, for many (but not all) tunes, but my overall strategy is to triage this a bit. "Jazz standards" (as opposed to GASB tunes) are almost never called in anything other than the original key, so I tend to just practice that for stuff like Recordame or I Remember Clifford. I find that most GASB standards are in either C, G, F, Eb, Ab, or Bb, and singers almost invariably transpose to only one or the other of these. (e.g, a singer won't transpose My Foolish Heart to F#). So when I do multiple keys, I mostly limit it to those, and don't do the full cycle. That, plus there are a handful of tunes that have more than one "standard" key (I guess due to the RealBook vs the Tradition dichotomy), such as e.g., Green Dolphin Street in C or Eb; Autumn Leaves in Emin/G or Gmin/Bb; Here's that Rainy Day in F or G, major or minor. For those I often just learn those two keys. For the most part, this has given me enough grasp of functional harmony that I don't find transposing on the fly terribly difficult; I don't find that going to all twelve keys adds a whole lot of value (vs time spent), compared to practicing some portion of my repertoire in somewhere between 2 and 6 keys. I have limited practice time, and my main goals are to add more tunes to my repertoire, be able to do chord/melody with more tunes, and to learn to play more interesting stuff over those tunes. I just don't have time to do all that in all keys (or even >1 key) all the time.

    John
    John's summary of the usual key info is my experience as well. But I still practice 12 keys (more on soloing than comping, but some of both). I started doing it when I began playing a lot of Brazilian music, which is sometimes written in guitar friendly keys that you don't see often in the GASB. And, the songs modulate a lot, so it's not unusual to be playing in non-GASB keys. And, with transpositions being cranked out electronically by notation software, you see a good deal of G#, C# and even the occasional A# or D# (and so forth). So, I decided to work on those keys. For me, I find that it builds fluency. Would I teach it? Not necessarily.

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    Transposing tunes is a good way to learn how to learn tunes. If you aren’t practicing this give it a go.

    You might find you are missing a trick.

    It will also make you more employable.