The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    In C-
    Well first chord Cmin

    B section last bar ....
    I've seen |Cmin7b5 F7| to get you back to Cmin
    How come its not
    |Dmin7b5. G7| ?

    I can hear it works , ok but wouldn't |Dmin7b5. G7| be better ?

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  3. #2

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    I think it's the case when it's no 'better or worse'... D-7b5/G7 brings in minor cadence... so it makes the connection much more smooth than in original... it's the matter what the meaning and character you want to imply..

    But... it also brings in strong functional C minor key orientation...

    And I see actually one interesting thing in original charts...

    To me at the beginning there's not C minor in functional sence...
    It's C minor triad with 5th moving up chromaticall g-ab-a-bb
    And I hear the 1st and 2nd notes are stronger so Ab and Bb sound more like passing tones... between G and A.

    After all it resolves to Fmaj7.. (Eb goes to e, Bb goes back to A).. after that the key is conventional F major

    So my idea that this Cminor - Fmaj7 realtion are based more on modal sound - it's more C Dorian with passing chromatic tones... I mean teh mode here even more in general 'sound sence' than in trad jazz sence. This turnaround is common in folk music for example...

    So in B section all these ii-v's come to Cm7 - F7 which goes again to that C minor triad... this seems to me to be backward movement and even stronger since it's F7 (not Fmaj7 that was needed for further development of a song), but F7 that fits perfectly C Dorian


    Yes this Dorian cadence sounds much tougher than functiona HM cadence, but probably that's what was needed for the song... at least as you said you heat it works.. and I hear it too...
    I hear it as coming back from smoother jazzy harmonies to more natural and plain Dorian sound

    also one can find minor blues sound in it too and this also benifits the meaning of the song.... and to me F7-Cmin fits minor blues better than traditional HM cadence... ( I believe that it's what the author had in mind... that bluesy sound)
    Last edited by Jonah; 12-19-2017 at 07:12 AM.

  4. #3

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  5. #4
    Thanks Jonah , that's very interesting
    I'll have a play around with the Phrygian sounds and see ....

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    Thanks Jonah , that's very interesting
    I'll have a play around with the Dorian sounds and see ....
    Yesteday I tried playing C-7 F7 C-7 F7 (kind of Dorian harmony to my ear) instead of the first changes (C-7 with ascending 5th)... and it fits...
    it is different of course but the general harmonic sound is the same to my ear...

    The same thing goes on in 'You'd be so easy to love'
    Last edited by Jonah; 12-19-2017 at 07:11 AM.

  7. #6

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    Sorry man...

    I just got that I put it Phrygian everywhere... though it's of course Dorian... some mind eclipse)))

    I corrected it in my posts...

    But it's only kind of term misprint - thinking about Dorian I typed Phrygian first and then kept on the term mindlessly...

    All the harmonic content behind is ok...

    Sorry for inconvinience

  8. #7

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    I didn't know the song.

    On IrealPro it has the chromatically ascending 5th within Cm.

    But, the Billie Holiday version on youtube doesn't sound like that.

    Instead, It sounds like 5, 6, b6, 5 (it's mostly in the strings, but they don't play that last 5)

    That makes the change an Abm7 (Billie's key) to a C#maj7.

    Or, stated another way ...

    Abm7, Ab B Eb Gb

    to

    C#maj7 C# F G# C

    Theory aside, when I pick up the guitar, the notes that sound good over the Abm section are Ab Harm Min. I even like the E rather than the Eb. Adjustment to account the moving inner voice may help. Which would mean that there could be a beat each of natural minor and melodic minor, but thinking that way is overkill. It's one chromatic movement of a single note.

    I hear C# Ionian.

    And the movement sounds a little like the last Abm feels like an Abm6, which is almost the same chord as C#9, and then it goes to C#maj7, so the movement is the B to C, among other things.

    Or, I hear the Abm as being close to a Bmaj7 and the next chord is simply the same thing up a full step.

    In soloing, what I would be thinking would be, the Abm stuff should sound sad and then for the C#maj7, the mood changes to happy/wistful. For notes, that would be bluesy changing to a maj7 type sound.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Sorry man...

    I just got that I put it Phrygian everywhere... though it's of course Dorian... some mind eclipse)))

    I corrected it in my posts...

    But it's only kind of term misprint - thinking about Dorian I typed Phrygian first and then kept on the term mindlessly...

    All the harmonic content behind is ok...

    Sorry for inconvinience
    No worries man , it was fun trying to fit
    Abmaj sounds to the sequence !!

    I don't think in modes very well generally
    Thanks for everyone's input here

    However I'm really asking about the way
    the B section gets back to the last A section ...

    Any more thoughts on that chaps ?

  10. #9

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    In the Billie Holiday version, there's the ii V that looks like it should resolve on Gbmaj, but, instead, it goes to G#m. False cadence.

    The G#m certainly sounds like a tonic minor to me. So, I guess I'd play the usual stuff for the ii V, and then, for the minor tonic, make sure my line emphasized that it's a minor tonic. The bass is going to have the G#, so I'd think of the B and Eb as most important and play it as if it were a G#m6.

    G#m6: G# B D# F. Then, avoid the nat3, b7, nat 7 and b9 . As I play it, Bb sounds good, it's the 9th. That's 9 notes. The 11th seems to detract from the m6 sound, so avoid it too.

    What's left? #11? Makes it sound diminished. Avoid. #5 makes it sound dominant. avoid.

    So, it's G# B D# F Bb. If you must have more, I'd add the 4 and the nat 7 back in. Which, unsurprisingly, gives you the melodic minor scale, always an excellent choice for a Im6.

    And, this is, I should think, a better way to do it than to think than, oh, Im6, I'll play Imelmin. That's because it attends to the sound of the song and it distinguishes between the foundational notes for that sound and the rest.

  11. #10

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    Thank you, I believe to explain what I mean about Dorian sound here it would be easier to make audio with the sound I hear there.. than typing it all.
    I'll try to make it today later...

    The G#m certainly sounds like a tonic minor to me. So, I guess I'd play the usual stuff for the ii V, and then, for the minor tonic, make sure my line emphasized that it's a minor tonic. The bass is going to have the G#, so I'd think of the B and Eb as most important and play it as if it were a G#m6.

    G#m6: G# B D# F. Then, avoid the nat3, b7, nat 7 and b9 . As I play it, Bb sounds good, it's the 9th. That's 9 notes. The 11th seems to detract from the m6 sound, so avoid it too.

    What's left? #11? Makes it sound diminished. Avoid. #5 makes it sound dominant. avoid.

    So, it's G# B D# F Bb. If you must have more, I'd add the 4 and the nat 7 back in. Which, unsurprisingly, gives you the melodic minor scale, always an excellent choice for a Im6.
    You see... melodic minor sound... if we speak about the harmonic sound of it (not just any weird jazz application of scale)... to me is connected with major V dominant in minor key.
    If you use Melodic minor on minor chord you would outline Harmoinc minor cadence V7-I which makes different sound than Dorian.

    Dorian is also minor 3rd scale, it has the same notes as HM except major 7th (and it fits m6 chord).
    But harmonically it's absolutely diferent sound to my ear...

    So yes G# (or C in the charts) sounds minor tonic...

    The thing is I hear no major7th in the opening minor chord of the song... which is crucial for MM or HM.




    In the Billie Holiday version, there's the ii V that looks like it should resolve on Gbmaj, but, instead, it goes to G#m. False cadence.
    Formally you are right... but to my hearing these ii - v's at the end of the bridge are not cadences... the key orientation in bridge is unstable (as it often is).. and for me functional cadence is clear statement of the key. Usually it's not enough just to play typical cadential turnaround to get to new key, there should be something in the music before that prepares this key.
    The final chord should sound very stable - be real tonic.

    Do you really hear it should resolve to Gbmaj (or in chart key Bbmaj)? Because what I hear is that these ii-v's just moving in parallel movement and they could go on moving actually chromatically... there's no specific key there..
    I mean I can resolve it like that of course... but I do not expect it here and it does not make it tonic to me.. on the contrary it would like it only begins to move away..

    You call it 'false cadence' but it is very specific thing to me.. it's when the final tonic is really expected and then suddenly it goes the other way... so probably we just understand the term differently.


    Byt the way ... in Ella's record it sounds like they just stay on C minor (I use charts' key)... I mean they do not play C#m - F#/ Cm -F... but just C#m-F#/ Cm-Cm etc. Cm again... maybe bass play C-G I can't rememeber but general sound is like they sit on C minor...
    It brings in strong bluesy feel to my ear...

  12. #11

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    However I'm really asking about the way
    the B section gets back to the last A section ...
    And this was what I answered))) I find it's realted to opening of the A section harmony


    'So in B section all these ii-v's come to Cm7 - F7 which goes again to that C minor triad... this seems to me to be backward movement and even stronger since it's F7 (not Fmaj7 that was needed for further development of a song), but F7 that fits perfectly C Dorian'


    By the way I checked the Real book I have...

    it goes Cm7// F-Dbmaj7add9!!! and then back to A section Cm))))

    voicing goes ... immagine it is a score from high to low

    (1)c - db - c
    (2)a - ab - g
    (3)eb - eb - eb

    (b) F - Db (or Fpedal) - c

    If you play G bass under that Db chord you'll have kind of alt dom to Cm without 3rd

  13. #12

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    I couldn't follow your explanation of why the C- right after the bridge is Dorian. Dorian has a b7 and I hear this as a Cm6, not Cm7.

    The bridge is a series of ii Vs in minor, major, major and whatever you want to call the last 4 chords. I'd be happy calling it a modulation, noting that Cm7 F7 doesn't usually go to a Cminor tonic, although it works in this tune. Ordinarily, it would go to Bb tonic. I understand that C Dorian is the same notes as Bb tonic (Ionian), but I just don't ear it that way.

    I don't hear the major 7 (B) in Billie's version on that chord, but I do think it fits the overall tonic sound. I'd call it a secondary choice for improvisation.

    My main point is to try to figure out what kind of chord sound you like for that part of the tune and then find the notes that work, by trying them one at a time.

  14. #13

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    I couldn't follow your explanation of why the C- right after the bridge is Dorian. Dorian has a b7 and I hear this as a Cm6, not Cm7.
    Yes Dorian has a b7 in the scale... it has seven notes in the scale they are not all in the chords we play...

    but what would be the chords that you choose to express C Dorian sound in harmony?
    I mean not only 7th chords or triads... but what harmonic sound would you call C Dorian?
    For me it should be root-b3-maj6 it's minimum to hear Dorian...
    b7 is not that much characteristic but it becomes important if you involve 7th in harmony or melody because if you use maj7 it brings in minor V7-I functional cadence feel. If you play b7 you stay in Dorian

    Besides there's horizontal harmony too... what's before and after...
    Contextual F major implies Bb pretty much for Cm here to my ear

    By the way try Cm-F7 Cm F7 on opening line... it works here too ... and it sounds like both are tonica... it's either D Dorian or F MyxoLydian.. the C tonic feels betteronly because of the strong beat it falls on...


    Again - I am not against playing Cminor here with G7 or whatever... but it's different sound and choice... which brings in different colour, character...

    I just try to explain how my Dorian idea is un my hearing related to song and bridge and all that...

    I understand that C Dorian is the same notes as Bb tonic (Ionian), but I just don't ear it that way.
    Actually... thanks! I hear it that way... but I did not think about it))))



    My main point is to try to figure out what kind of chord sound you like for that part of the tune and then find the notes that work, by trying them one at a time.
    Mine too

  15. #14

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    Oddly enough, I'm not sure what notes sound Dorian to me. Certainly, the chord tones of a m7 chord used as a kind of Tonic, like So What. And, then the Dorian mode. In that situation, I guess the b7 sounds more Dorian to me than the 6th, although I know that's not the conventional way of thinking.

    But, we understand each other, I think. There is no expectation that two players are going to hear things the same way -- that's what makes it jazz. We ought to be able to communicate our thinking, and we did that. And, we even agree on the approach to this situation. Try every note and see how much you like each one.

    I keep thinking that my approach doesn't work well in situations for which some players can create great bitonality. I'll probably address that the same way I learned monotonality -- transcribe some ear catching lines, figure out what's going on scale/arp/note/chord-wise and use the sounds that stick in my mind.

  16. #15

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    Oddly enough, I'm not sure what notes sound Dorian to me. Certainly, the chord tones of a m7 chord used as a kind of Tonic, like So What. And, then the Dorian mode. In that situation, I guess the b7 sounds more Dorian to me than the 6th, although I know that's not the conventional way of thinking.
    I see... I believe Dm7 sounds Dorian only when you mentally think of it as ii of C major and reconsider D as root... sort of unconciously imlying harmonic context with B natural...
    For example if it's VI of F major or III of Bb major it's difficult to hear the Dorian sound behind it...

    I guess So What sounds Dorian because it starts with the melody where there is a B natural...
    and accent on D in bass which makes it sound tonic...

    this implies that Dorian sounds of the following harmonies that follow

    first is sort of very soft suspension a whole step above and it also has natural B
    second... yes there's a C in it I am not sure I would really call it 'true' D-7
    It's kind of extended D minor triad sound to my ear... b7 does not function here as in normal D-7
    Yes there's no B in that chord... but it's already in our mind because of the melody and previous chord...

  17. #16

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    I am no pianist... but I decided on piano it's more illustrative.. I did it quickly on the run with no editing... hope it clarifies better what I meant

    especially about connection between Bridge and A


  18. #17

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    Here's Lage Lund's version - I also hear this Dorian sound over Cm in soloing (in the intro though he plays some nat minor notes)

    I thought also about something... when soloing (especially fast tempo as here) - you need sort of integral tonal space - at least for a chorus... and since it's mostly F major.. and Cm is minor V of F major (so it's 'a' and 'bb' are in the F key, and 'eb' is from Cm triad)
    and it brings it all again C dorian of F mixolydian... the tonic will depend on accents and context

    When he starts soloing this sounds like F mixolydian actually to my ear... probbably the contest implies it... and makes it hear F as tonic