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The big debate on YT--which resulted in a lot of insults--was whether the intro was off. Everyone agreed that after 10 seconds, the performance was amazing, but the question was the intro. The debate got into the bigger question of jazz people understanding something about music that few others understand.
So, is the intro a bit off (or confusing, or messed up, or whatever?)
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11-21-2017 11:37 AM
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I would say yes, it's off. And they recover quick, and play great.
That's jazz. It's in the moment. I'm scared to read the comments...I'm assuming they will again shatter my fragile hopes for humanity.
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Drums are very up front for a small room like that. Phone video. I mean you can't really turn drums down. I think everyone would've locked quicker if the drummer had just eased in a little bit more at the beginning. To me sounded like a second or third chorus, rather then an intro in a tiny space. Amazing what not being able to hear can do to you . I'd imagine it's the same even if you're really good player.
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drums - is it just quality of recording or just style of playing?
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I'm no jazz player at all, but to me, as a musician, you play TO several factors: audience, the other musicians, and to the room/acoustics as well. If it's tiny, and you can't hear, I mean, are you really pushing, second chorus style? But I don't think you can judge anything from a phone recording really.
Originally Posted by kris
Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 11-23-2017 at 07:25 AM.
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I think the drumer is playing to "modern stuff" sometimes...and it is not comfortabe for other musicians.
This is my diplomatic player coment.
Best
Kris
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Yeah it's jazz and it's great. Julian is just such a complete player. I mean, he always finds a way....a path.... and comes up with something fresh and very much him.
I think he's from another planet........or at least he's definitely circling Volton 5.
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This is what pickup jazz bands without rehearsals sound like. Like real jazz.
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Yes, they are off. The sax player and the drummer are not at the same tempo initially and then are not in the same groove, which throws off the guitar and bass. The drummer's playing in general is not apropos for the tune (to my taste anyway) and the sax player never gets it by the end of his solo, to my ears- like the ground is just never solid under his feet- but I tend to be biased about sax. Just have heard too many sax cliches.
I couldn't even make it to the end of the video, maybe it gets better.
And it just goes to show how hard jazz is. It is a negotiation between all the players as to what the tune is going to sound like, and sometimes it doesn't gel. This tune is improvised from the count-off, like many jazz performances, and that's just hard to do. I mean: Larry Grenadier and Julian Lage, for pete's sake- these are two of the best in the business. Dayna Stephens and Louis Hayes are unknown names which you can blame on my ignorance of modern players. If guys like this can't just nail it from the start, then that's just a testament to the difficulty of the art form.
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I would have straightened them out immediately, but I was not there.
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Oh yeah, i left comments there too, pretty much what you guys are saying. And immediately got accused of not getting 'it'. The drummer played perfect, the whole tune, no discussion. Well, I can enjoy a bit of a banter with those guys, so I just laugh.
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Louis Hayes is a legend. He recorded on numerous Cannonball records, Kenny Burrell and Coltrane. Originally Posted by Cunamara
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Originally Posted by eh6794-2.0
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LOL! Well, there was another opportunity to display my ignorance! It shows that I don't often read the liner notes and attend to who is in the band, I just put the record on and listen to it. And nowadays I tend to get music via iTunes and there are no liner notes at all in most cases. Originally Posted by eh6794-2.0
If he played with Trane, well that explains something to me. He's got a conception of time and groove beyond my ears and mind. Often these discussions display the limitations of the listener rather than the musicians. Perhaps it was just me that was never able to find the groove and time in what he played.
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What kind of era then, of ruining the intros to standards? Originally Posted by djg
it's louis hayes, a drummer from a different era. he's searching for interaction on the bandstand, trying to squeeze water (or in this case swing) from a stone. but he's just being ignored by the rest of the musicians who seem happy to just float over him, never even trying to interact or, god beware, to lock in.
guitar jazz at it's worst
Sorry, I'd be with the ''rest of the musicians" on this one, I see no fault of any.
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Again, my only problem is the first few seconds. But don't lie, doesn't the beginning sound like the first week of Junior High band class?
PS, the intro still sounds 1000 times better than my playing! haha
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Tempo counted is a little slow, I agree, I'd like it crispier. Don't see the sax player come in late, though. Originally Posted by djg
It drags along during the head, yes, but to my observation, due to no one is willing to take charge in establishing the groove. The guitarist is playing spaced out embellishments as chords, the bassist does what normally expected- mostly half notes (lack of percussive texture). The sax player of course is stretching the time, again, as expected. Now the drummer that they all hope (my guess only) will set them all in is trying to 'interact' as you said, (but definitely not to lock in!). The result is what it is.
I say they are all brilliant musicians in their own right. They have their styles worked out, it's all great, nobody denies anyone's legacy. But those few seconds to a min in the beginning maybe a showcase what is 'wrong' with modern school jazz? Too much emphasis on interaction and less on a groove thang? Old time Swing musicians would never have that problem.
All very subjective and IMO only.
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I think sometimes it takes a bit of time to feel where the other players are feeling the tempo - even when all the players have good time... It's like a stylistic thing....
You might hear differently, but to me - it does sound as if the drummer is feeling the pulse at a fractionally different tempo (faster) to the other guys, and the result is a slight awkwardness.
In fact I think he plays those hihat upbeats to signal to the others where he is feeling the pulse as guitar and bass are playing 1 or 2 in a bar and the sax player is kind of floating, and so not unambiguously expressing any clear upbeat information.
Of course there's an aspect of schadenfreude - look they are human after all! :-) But I like humanity in the music, I don't think any less of a player if they make the odd mistake, in fact I often think more of them.....Last edited by christianm77; 11-23-2017 at 05:51 PM.
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Also - this might be total rubbish - but it often feels to me more modern players play with more of a neutral centre of the beat type of metronomic feel and older school players like to have a bit of a push in there, which might account for the discrepancy....
It might not be a tempo thing per se, even, more a beat centre issue.
But that's pretty wanky, so feel free to shoot me down :-)
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Doesn’t sound particularly out of time to me. I think Louis Hayes was putting triplet-based accents on the hi hat and snare etc. which were deliberately displaced from the expected ‘2 and 4’ type of beat. The sax player is intentionally playing displaced from the beat too. There is still a common pulse implied by all of them.
I don’t think players at this level need the beat to be spelled out obviously, the sax player counted them in, after that they all know where it is, it’s as simple as that.
Plus as pointed out, the recording balance doesn’t really help, I don’t think it’s what you would have heard in person.
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I refute your expostulation thus: Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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Yea, all you did was sent me to dictionary to make sense of your cheeky words choice Originally Posted by christianm77
Too bloody fancy for a laddie like me.
So what are you refuting exactly? I know Julian Lage has got it, he can play any style and does it great. He is prolly the only modern player I really enjoy, (you can keep your other Lage!)
So... in simple words?
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I think Julian can swing his ass off in an old school way. I'm not saying every modern guitar player does that, but it's very much part of Julian's style.
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Absolutely, I agree. I never said he can't! Originally Posted by christianm77
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Listening back on headphones for first time, it just sounds like a halftime ballad feel to me on the first chorus. Everybody sounds pretty great, and if you were in the room, the drums wouldn't be perceived as being so loud probably. I think it's easy to mis-hear the drums (on this very low quality recording) as having played something more straightahead than what was actually intended. Apart from the actual comparative louder recorded volume, it's pretty soft "fill playing".
Everyone kicks in more straightahead at about 1:00. I think if this had been mixed in a studio this performance would be heard as being fine.
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