-
GREAT question. Well for my way of thinking, I try to shift my awareness from chord obligation, to line sound.
Originally Posted by wzpgsr
By that totally confusing language I mean if I've relieved myself of the obligation of "making" a whole bunch of chord changes, I want to spend my time making a lyric line. So one thing I got from Jim Hall's playing was to start a tonal area with a chordal "stab" or just a quick statement of a tonal area you're working with, and create a line from that. Since you've got the sound of that change, you don't need to spend your notes outlining anything... that obligation's been filled. Create a line. Some ideas:
Start a scale passage on an unexpected note, maybe the second note of the scale, and lead up to a chord tone.
or
Play arpeggio sections and then change direction with a scale passage. Experiment with rhythms. Once you've played your idea, remember it. In the next block of harmony, re-create that phrase in your new tonality.
or
Make short motivs (do re mi fa) then move that (mi fa sol la) and from another chord tone (sol la ti do) and end with a little blues figure. That's a good use of figure, motiv or pattern with a statement conclusion.
or
Target a chord tone and chose an embellishment figure that takes you there. (I really should do another embellishment thread)
always with these ideas, strive to play them from inside yourself, not from the fingers or not by the number. Strive to do this and it will come. The larger blocks of harmony will allow you to hear what you've done and build on it.
As far as the other chords I've cut out, well they're still there for me as the melody is. Sometimes I'll allude to them, sometimes not. But never if it takes me from an idea I want to realize.
This is just one approach to learning a tune. It's not gospel by any stretch of the imagination, but it does help to see the big picture, and once the big picture is in the ear, getting off book is much easier.
Anybody else chime in with any thoughts?
David
-
11-17-2017 06:34 PM
-
Great ideas summed up.
Regarding ideas One and first part of Two, I am starting to work with David Baker's How To Play Bebop volume 1 book. It has sections on starting [the bebop dominant scale] on non chord tones, extending the bebop line, deflection, enclosures, etc.
As to part 2 of idea Two (experimenting with rhythms) that is a quality I admire in the masters. For example when Wes changes to double time from measure 34 on of his solo in Misty, with Wynton Kelly Trio, throwing excitement to a slow ballad.
Another example of mastering rhythm even in a slow ballad, I find here:
-
-
Time has gotten a bit tight the last couple of weeks and I feel like I’ve been floundering. This week I’ve decided to change up my routine since I didn’t make much headway with last week’s tune. I am breaking Autumn in New York into 8 bar sections and working on just section per day. Instead of improvising over each section for 3 10 minute sessions I am spending one of those periods (longer than 10 minutes for sure) getting the melody for that section down. Then I do two 10 minute improv sessions. So far so good. I should have the melody and chords down in 4 days, which will give me 2-3 days to play the whole tune and probably have much more meaningful improv sessions.
Random thoughts
I find that I don’t hear tunes very critically until I dive in and start playing them. Then things start to reveal themselves. I might hear snippets of what’s going on, but working through the melody really helps me get inside the song.
We’ve had a few tunes where a melody line will repeat over a different harmony. Really cool sounding.
-
This is such a beautiful tune.
I sat down tonight with intention of analysing it, starting with a quick run through the changes to get a feel for it. I got totally sidetracked and went through many times getting carried along by my enjoyment of the progression. However I voiced it, wherever I played it. Sometimes with the melody and other times just letting it breathe.
Part way through I had a recall of the Billie Holiday lyrics,which conjured up images of the NY roofscapes and made me think about the visualisation you talk about. Tomorrow’s task is to get the lyrics proper and explore this more. (I’m usually quite indifferent to the presence of vocals and avoid them more often than not).
Anyway here’s one my favourite recordings:
-
I love this version...
-
Thanks for including that recording. It reminded me that I should listen to more Kenny Dorham. Originally Posted by woollyhair
-
I'm having a real blast with this tune. Yes, it's so beautiful that in a way it plays itself and analyzing it can impose playing habits that take away from hearing it. On the other hand, it's full of twists and turns, so as you're looking out the window enjoying, you can easily find yourself in a train wreck.
So this is a little bit of the map in my head. Arrows are dominant phrases that I use to play into a phrase and colours indicate the amount of time I'm actually safe within a sound or tonality (my scenic area spots along the road). Colour changes, change of ideas.
wpzgsr I know you're taking these a few bars at a time. Great idea. This is how I've tackled this piece.
You can see some areas where the tonality doesn't really change, but the way I hear, or the way the piece breathes does change.
Yes there are places where I find myself in keys that are just perfect but defy diatonicism of the piece key.
I would say that the better you know a tonality as a whole and not by individual changes, the better off you'll be. For example those first two bars aren't just four chords to arpeggiate, they're a breathing passage that creates an exhale when you reach the F tonic chord. Those are trees that shouldn't get in the way of seeing the beauty of the line you can create.
Maybe I'll post a list of things to focus on, different ways of looking at making a solo besides the obvious "notes that fit" approach.
I did some of that in the Super Chops thread, but maybe I'll revisit that. But for now, great ideas guys!
David
-
Hi guys. I'm still here. been traveling and other busy holiday ventures bit I'm very much here. I did a week on Blue Bossa and that was fine. I'm not gonna bother posting anything on that one.
I am deeply immersed in "How Deep..." at this time. this one is incredibly challenging but I'm diggin it.
I'm particularly interested in your map, David and am gaining a lot of insight in to this tune using it but I have some questions (which I'll post a later post). But let me just ask one thing : What is the significance of circle vs box in the chords of your map? at first I thought it was "diatonic vs substitution or outside thinking BUT I'm not so sure. I love the idea of color coding and I'm going to steal it for my own analysis. Also , in one section you havs a box surrounding 2 chords. help, I need a little legend! I'm good though. the interesting thing is as I work on it I'm discovering that there are many ways to approach it and am making my own notes on that too. I will definitely post ideas on this one but probably not until next week.
I'm also "transcribing" my favorite licks from Bill Evans solo. some fantastic lines in this. Love his imagination. his playing really speaks to me...
-
Heh, no biggie. Sometimes I'm thinking "a few chords make up this sound, and I put them in a box. It's easier to draw than a circle. A single chord, it's easier to draw a circle. Ha ha. That's all it is, seriously. And they're my study notes so when I'm tackling a piece, I really am merciless about marking up a lead sheet. Ignore this, this is going to that point 3 measures away (big circle and arrow), key change here, breathe before you hit this section... that kind of stuff. It's just a glimpse of how I envision. Colours ARE important though, they break up sections dramatically. I never see a piece of music linearally, there is a heirarchy of chords and boundries of influence for each section. Changing a boundry on purpose can really change the architecture and arc of a solo. Originally Posted by Michael Kaye
Truth be told, when learning a piece, I take it off the staff paper, line up those colour coded sections vertically on a piece of notebook paper, and then listen to a recording going down the page section by section. I'll learn piece that way. It's way too densely distracting for me to see everything in front of me at once.
It's chapters in my mind. So now you know one person's game plan in learning tunes.
David
-
The fourth week of the month, where we dig into the box of tunes I think are worth knowing, tunes that you may not know from everyday listening.
This week's tune is a tune I know almost exclusively as a vocal vehicle. That makes it worth while to consider in approaching this tune. Listen to the vocal versions, and work on learning this as a vocalist would, by phrase, by line of music, my ear.
Putting the vocal line, the lyric, the meaning of the melody as your primary focus can really help in prioritizing learning and playing a piece. If your lines sing, they will have life to them. If you can hear a piece for the lyric beauty, then try using that as a starting point.
Thought question for the week: Can you "see" melody on the fingerboard as you listen to a piece? Do you have an intervallic map of where the sounds are? If you do, playing ideas and sounds by ear becomes a very lyric experience. If you don't, it's an all too easy trap to fall into to play by patterns that come from the fingers and bypass the ear. Maybe we can explore this question this week as we look at our tune Answer Me, My Love
Please bear with the quality of the lead sheet. This tune is not in ANY of my real books. But I definitely consider it worth inclusion in our Tune a Week selection. The tune as written here is in Eb
Nat King Cole's version
Here's the embodiment of a singer's approach on an instrument. It's Gene Ammons. An example of what thoughtful nuance can do.
Marcus Roberts hears this almost like a Hymn. Note the lyric singing lines he gets by using the blues as in improvising scale. Tastefully!
And Joni Mitchell gives a really nice reading, listen to the ways she works with the song form but adds so much by inflection and nuance.
I'll take a closer look at the tune structurally and practically in the days to follow, but think vocal... and enjoy this piece!
David
-
So some random thoughts about learning the Jazz Language. Just like any language ideally it's best to speak it with the people who actually speak it as their first language. Besides understanding all of the technical aspects like II/V/I and all of it's variations as well as scales/modes and their respective chord tones available.
This is actually hard if you don't have your theory or instrument basics already. You definetly need to work on that first!
Aside from that FEEL or GROOVE is primary and second. Other wise you end up sounding like someone who speaks with a poor understanding of language. I keep encountering excellent musicians who teach me that lesson in all styles, be it Jazz,Pop.etc.
You will never learn that from say "The Real Book".
Another lesson is I've learned more from Bassists than other instruments or players. The basic principal is to follow the melody along with the bass direction/line. The harmony/chords is subjective and up to interpretation. That is also very hard if you don't understand the substitutions or paths of the progression available. I suggest listening to Barney Kessel and or Howard Roberts on Julie London's early records.
Not only are these great standards to study but full of very interesting harmonic adventures as well!
-
I'm going to do a detailed look at this tune, just because I think it's such a great tune and we haven't done a straight Eb major to G minor piece yet. But I'll add the study notes soon. Anyone have any thoughts on this tune?
First of all, this lead sheet has the tune in two keys. Two distinct versions. The first 4 systems are the Eb version and 5-8 are another version in C. Take your pick. An unusual feature of this tune is the B section goes into minor. But it's not the relative minor, which would be C minor in Eb, but instead it moves to the tonality of the third degree, that is G minor. This is a modulation, because you don't play the bridge in phrygian. It's little things like this that make tunes so fresh. That Major to III minor is part of the unexpected beauty of this tune.
Now there are a lot of slash chords, or chords over bass notes in this tune. That moving bass line in the tune is the way people hear this tune; it's kinda essential. But it's actually just a suggestion of how to voice the chords, they don't dominate the function as much as suggest a way to play these chords. In a chord solo though, they're really handy, but as far as understanding the piece so you can learn it, the top part of the chord is the important functional part.
In other words, look at that Bb/D as a V function, that's an inversion of Bb(7) that happens to sound good with the 3rd in the bass. Same with the Ab/C. You don't HAVE to play it that way. When I'm comping this piece, hearing a I V IV (even a IV-) back to the I is the sound I hear for the first system.
I'd suggest as you're working with this tune, step back and take a look at the larger picture. Where are your start and end points for 4 bar phrases and tonal areas? Play with being able to hear them, and work your own ways to voice your way through. Listen to the vocals, where the breaths are, where the thoughts and lyrics build to and where they relax. Listen to the melody, where it rises, where it pauses, where it falls and use that as a model for creating a solo when you find your own lines habitually following the changes too much. See if you can use that arc to inform your own solo lines.
When you get to the 3rd system (I've marked that III- on the sheet), shift gears, shift positions, plant your self in G minor and there stay until you go back to the top.
This is a great tune to try as a chord solo too. For chord soloing, especially in broad tonal centres like this piece, do play around with SOUNDS of chords, different voicings, play the chords in different parts of the neck, don't allow yourself to stay in one position so long that it becomes a habit. Be aware of the sounds of inversions and the different sounds you can get simply from finding a new neighborhood of chords in a different location... and keep the sound library in your mind open.
There's a lot you can get from Answer Me.
DavidLast edited by TH; 12-11-2017 at 12:54 PM.
-
We begin December with a real workhorse standard, Cole Porter's What Is This Thing Called Love?
This piece is a great way to really get to know the relationships of dominant chords to chords within the key of C.
The form is AABA, and the A part plays with a dominant going to a IV- chord (our modal interchange IV) before finding the dominant movement to our I chord. We do that once more.
Then in the B section, our C becomes the II- chord of the Bb a whole step below. Then again dropping down a whole step to a dominant that leads us back to the A section.
Because the form has so much room to experiment and find your tonal centres, it's a suggestion that you don't get bogged down in running each and every change but rather play with dominant to target chord areas.
If anyone needs or wants suggestions on what or how to practice and learn this tune, just say so, and we can all throw in our thoughts.
Off the bat, I'd say for those getting to know this piece, learn to feel of the harmonic movement and target the strong notes of your goal.
For those with more experience and even those who've worked with this piece before, there's a reason why this piece is a popular piece for contrafacts. Try writing a new head on these changes. It's a very satisfying experience and this is a great tune to work with. There's a lot you can get out of writing your own heads.
Have fun
David
Bill Evans and the way he hears the harmony
Lee Konitz and the way he takes apart and reassembles the tune, always with a great sense of melody
Lee Konitz wrote a contrafact of this tune called SubconsciousLee, here done by Bill Frisell
-
Love this tune. Probably the first tune I really dug into when I returned from my guitar-playing hiatus a few years ago. That said, I find it elusive. Looking forward to writing a new head. Great idea, David.
I’ve been out of town and rather busy the past couple of weeks, but back in the saddle tomorrow!
-
I've been stupid busy with refinishing my basement, barely hanging on to my practicing... But, this old favorite will draw me back in with renewed purpose.
-
Sweet, good choice!
(I'll admit that I completely skipped last week's tune, because I absolutely loathe Answer Me, My Love after playing it as a slow, dragging waltz for three years in a big band.)
-
So used to hearing WITTCL at cooking tempos. Started out at 80 bpm tonight. Going to add 10 bpm per night. That will get me about as cooking as I think I can handle. The only slow version of this song I know of is Sinatra’s from In the Wee Small Hours.
-
Make those slow tempos cook as much as the fast ones.
Don't forget, What is Thing Thingy has a lyric--a decent one at that.
Had a lesson with my mentor.
He said that when he played with Bill Charlap, Bill would actually mouth the lyrics as he played the melody (and improvisation).
Monk does the same, in his own sweet way (nod to Bru-bee)
Commit time to the lyric and the melody before separating everything.
The problem with learning tunes is that we separate way too much.
Think holistically, as in "what's the big idea, see?"
Truth is giving us a huge hint--think sections NOT individual chords.
The melody is also built in sections, look at how the melody carves around the chords. Look for the punctuation in the melody--that
might help with melodic development with your solos. Think in phrases, 2 bar, 4 bar, 8. Screw the harmony--play something in the key and focus on your phrases for a while, your ear will thank you.
Truth, that's my contribution you've asked for a while back. I am still woodshedding Body and Soul for my lessons (I had to actually sing last lesson), but I can add one more song to the list.
I already started singing through WITTCL over the summer, it's be great to revisit it with the melody as king.
-
Some vocal versions:
How's that for research (in 15 minutes) Time well spent.
Enjoy, and note all the subtle differences. I am not sure who has the most "original to the standard" melody of the bunch (even Cole's version might be a variation)
--IREZLast edited by Irez87; 12-06-2017 at 12:43 AM.
-
Yeah, I noticed my phrasing of the melody at 80 bpm was rather stilted, so I started singing it. Definitely helps! Originally Posted by Irez87
See, I know this tune pretty well. I love this program, but trouble starts for me when I can’t find the time to internalize a melody and play it competently within the week timeframe.
-
This is the earliest version that I was able to find a few years ago when I first started working on the tune. Is this the “original” recorded version? It’s from 1930 I think.
-
Originally Posted by wzpgsr
Originally Posted by wzpgsr
That's the plus and the minus of having the slate wiped clean each week. If you pick up one useful skill each week, you're way ahead. Keep a notebook and make it a goal to internalize one new skill a week: Singing a solo, targeting a note within a tonal centre, expanding your awareness of what beat you begin your phrases on, learning to hear your solo phrases as a sax player...as a vocalist...as a pianist would, writing a contrafact, purposely using dynamics, changing your relationship with the bar line... All these things, if you make a weekly project, will give you something you can bring to your playing for the rest of your life.
I see different people are getting different things from their time. That's really great!
I do still hold to the strength of the original goal, to begin each piece at slow tempo at the beginning of the week, and wind up at your speed limit by the end increasing each day. Yes, this changes the original tune but it gives you a perspective where all tunes share certain commonalities, and your skill as an improvisor will grow in all song types. Of course some may want to learn the tunes as played by certain specific versions over the week, sure, that's cool too. I just want to say my song choices have been based on a diverse sample of progressive and interesting lexicon.
Players at the start of the improvising journey might spend more time on hearing the changes. This, at first will benefit from just being able to play the chord tones and connecting passing tones. Put together this gives you chord scales by which melodic lines can be built.
Once you have these, it is important to be able to find tonics throughout the complete fingerboard, open up all the underutilized zones of your guitar; make the entire neck your friend.
After that, introduction to rhythmic devices is important as soon as possible. This brings space, life and dimension to those notes.
More seasoned players can begin to assimilate ornaments, diatonic and chromatic embellishments onto their essential lines. This is a lifelong pursuit and the thing that gives a distinctly "jazzy" sound.
Harmonic devices, substitutions and reharmonization are what I find really satisfying. When you get comfortable with the songs as they follow the changes, you might find new and exciting, and beautiful ways to navigate a piece. You hear this in Bill Evans' playing, and in a lot of modern players. The forms within each of these pieces are just one way to play a piece, and how you get to the important defining aspects of a piece can be as much an improvisational adventure as anything. The devices for these theoretical and practical sounds, the degree of "inside" and "outside" can be found in the structures of composed pieces. Things like secondary dominants, areas of tonality which can be treated as modal areas for re-interpretation, superimposing meter within a defined metric passage... these are all things you can try out on a weekly basis, and perfect as the speed increases throughout the week.
I'll also try to find pieces that cover a variety of keys, so we don't build up a fear of keys and really see the universality of tonal centres and their relationships all over the fingerboard.
That's kind of the way I envision a useful regimen for tune of the week. Mostly though, getting the guitar out on a regular basis, and developing a growing ear and awareness is my greatest hope. This yearlong group is our common shared experience by which we can all get to become the best musicians we can through playing real tunes and unlocking the learning material within.
I'm learning so much from your questions, the insights and approaches that are different from mine, and the things you are all encountering. Thanks guys!
David
-
I say, do both.
Pick a song you really love and commit a month to just that tune. That will build up your song mechanics and melodic knowledge.
In addition, pick a song a week.
That allows us (me too) to see how all structures are similar.
Where are the key reference points of each tune?
What harmonies are the same?
What harmonies just work for this tune? (rare)
But, always start with the melody--then go to the harmonic structures.
This is what all my mentors told me. I only started listening to them now
-
If you did this, if you had the time, I believe that this exercise, done with the help of others you can find to play with, could give you the material and foundation you could get through a four year program. I do believe that. Originally Posted by Irez87
I say, do both.
Pick a song you really love and commit a month to just that tune. That will build up your song mechanics and melodic knowledge.
In addition, pick a song a week.
That allows us (me too) to see how all structures are similar.
Where are the key reference points of each tune?
What harmonies are the same?
What harmonies just work for this tune? (rare)
But, always start with the melody--then go to the harmonic structures.
This is what all my mentors told me. I only started listening to them now
The knowledge of harmony, ear training, historical perspective, not to mention the self motivation and personal prioritization needed to really understand can be achieved through the tunes, questions and answers.
It worked in the big band model before there were ever music schools and on line programs. It's all in the personal investment.
You make it meaningful. You make it good. You make it fun. It's in the music.
As far as a specific tune to really immerse yourselves in, every great player I know has one or a small handful of tunes that are their own personal favourites, that they identify with. These tunes recur constantly in their sets and each time, they reflect that player's development at that time. They're touchstones for growth. You get that from knowing a tune really well, and trying to know it better constantly.
It surprised me when I talked to Jim Hall maybe 20 years ago. He said some tunes he'd been playing regularly throughout his career and they always stayed fresh and challenging. He said Round Midnight was still a mystery to him.
You learn a lot from investing wisely. Your time, your efforts. Keep the ideas coming!
David
Reply With Quote
mclaughlin sound here
Today, 12:26 AM in The Players