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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1 View Post
    It's a lot easier for me to think of AL as a G6 tune; descending cycles of fifths A-D-G-C-F#-B-G6, like falling leaves.

    Attachment 46446
    You could go either way, thinking about it. The guy that split wasn't wrong, and I'm sorry I said he was. You have to go further into the tune, and then you could think in E Minor and treat the G Major part as the III of E Minor. And it DOES end on E Minor, so the major section could be thought of as a preparation for that.

    I'm no theorist, it's just a thought...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop View Post
    I should of read the original post closer I was more interested in learn tunes, because I have a tough time with it. This appear to me more Super Chops like so I probably will back to my other studies, but since I'm here
    No, NO! Stick around! This is a very good idea and a much needed "push" for us guitarists.

    You may not be able to devote time for a song each week ( just as I can not ) but simply adding aprox. 20 tunes to your repertoire is going to be great!

    I posted my functional harmonics just as I recall the song and I can easily use that chart to transpose in any key. Remember, when a song is called you just want to be able to say something quickly and then go deeper with each chorus.

    This tune is circular diatonically except for the III 7 and it's gong to give us our first bebop note too ( D# ).

    Stick around, brother.

    DH
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  4. #53

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    Let's share some ideas about how we make a piece come alive.
    Yeah, it's easy to run the changes, play the proper scale, even get through a piece without getting lost. But how do you make a memorable solo and how does this help us to learn the song?
    All ideas welcome for this side discussion.

    For myself, I always start by creating a mental picture of where I am (along with an idea of for how long), and where I'm going (and how far away it is.) Doing this, I come up with blocks that I think of as "tonal terraces". For me, the piece introduces a phrase that forms an approach to the I chord. That's my first "terrace" and within that, I can create lines and ideas that take me to the centre of gravity there.
    Thinking this loosely allows me to see contours of line rather than dots on my fingerboard.

    How about anyone else?

    David

  5. #54

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    Sometimes I start out by throwing something at the wall, and my ear or sense of rhythm takes over and runs with it, and my fingers try to keep up and translate. If I’m thinking at all, it’s probably more about a general flavor that I am going for, rather than specific notes. I don’t think too much about overall structure of a solo. Back when I played rock and funk and blues, my solos tended to move towards a frenetic peak. It’s been ear-opening to hear solos in jazz (Miles Davis comes to mind here) where a solo dies graceful before the torch is passed to the next soloist. So I guess that’s just a different sense of overall dynamic that I need to keep in mind: a good solo doesn’t have to gradually increases in intensity and end in a dynamic peak of loudness, speed, etc. At this point in my jazz development I’m not thinking about those things too much, but I think I ought to start.
    Last edited by wzpgsr; 10-04-2017 at 11:36 PM.

  6. #55

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    Here's what may be a kind of contrarian view.

    Autumn Leaves is fairly easy to memorize by thinking about minor and major 251's.

    But, I doubt that the guys who know a zillion tunes have memorized a formula for each one. And, there are tunes which defy formula, e.g. Stella.

    I think they have memorized the overall sound of the tune, sort of the same way you can tell when the IV chord is coming in a 12 bar blues. They very likely can sing the melody and "feel" the changes. Learning the lyric probably helps you remember the melody.

    So, I think that memorizing tunes is much, much easier if you can "hear" the chord changes in your mind and find them on the instrument by sound.

    That is, you try to get away from any linguistic material or bandstand shorthand ("it's a 251, it goes to the 4, 4m, and 1" kind of thing).

    To develop it, I suggest the following, although I came upon this recently and I'm not sure how well it works

    For a song you can sing, try to figure out the chords this way: Sing the tune to yourself while you play single note lines. You're not soloing - you're trying to find some chord tones. For a lot of tunes you're trying to find 3rds and 7ths on the dominants and maybe R's and 3rds on the major sounding chords. Find the notes that work. See if you can find a guide tone line (meaning a smooth, slow, line that leads from one chord to another).

    Then, on the bandstand, you can do something similar. Don't try to simply chunk out rhythm. Mix in single notes and use the notes to help you find the next chords.

    I got this idea from listening to pianists. They''re often noodling around while they're comping and it occurred to me that the noodling is a way of finding the next chord.

    So, we're working on AL. I'd suggest trying to play it in a different key without too much thought. Start, say, on Cm, and noodle your way through the changes. My guess is that the more you do it, the better you'll get.

  7. #56

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    Sorry for the double, but I also have an idea on how to construct a solo.

    This works (for me, anyway) when I can feel the changes and find the chord tones without too much thought.

    At home, strum the chords and sing a solo. If you sing a line you like, figure out how to play it.

    On the bandstand, let the other instruments influence what you're singing in your mind. A good way is to start the solo sparsely. Leave some space and pay attention to the other instruments. The drummer may give you rhythmic ideas. Same for the piano. If the bass is playing a busy pattern, figure you'll need to stay simpler. And, the reverse. You may remember a lick from the soloist before you -- and you can try to incorporate it.

    When you start sparsely, it makes it easier to build the solo up. My best advice is to sing to yourself and try to play what you're singing.

    If you get bored with your own sung lines, then it's time to do some transcription or use some theory to generate some ideas.

  8. #57

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    GREAT ideas! This is what I was hoping we'd find when I started this whole thing.
    rpjazzguitar, when you mentioned transcribing, it brought back a really important day. I was in school, a jazz ensemble with vibes player Dave Samuels. We'd get assigned a piece which we'd play in class. Then our assignment was to write a solo during that week.
    I think that was when I realized just how much of what I played got played without my permission... by that I mean the opportunities missed by succumbing to habit or safe playing. Writing out a solo along with working with that song in real time felt like I was soloing; all my ideas were there but so was attention to detail. My live soloing got better.
    I'd make a little list of things to try (start on an unexpected note, develop one idea, use long notes, don't forget pickup notes...) and when I was writing out the solo, I'd discover how they'd fit. Y'know, most of the time I didn't even play what I'd written, because it became part of my inner composer.

    Keep the ideas coming in!

    David

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Sorry for the double, but I also have an idea on how to construct a solo.

    This works (for me, anyway) when I can feel the changes and find the chord tones without too much thought.

    At home, strum the chords and sing a solo. If you sing a line you like, figure out how to play it.

    On the bandstand, let the other instruments influence what you're singing in your mind. A good way is to start the solo sparsely. Leave some space and pay attention to the other instruments. The drummer may give you rhythmic ideas. Same for the piano. If the bass is playing a busy pattern, figure you'll need to stay simpler. And, the reverse. You may remember a lick from the soloist before you -- and you can try to incorporate it.

    When you start sparsely, it makes it easier to build the solo up. My best advice is to sing to yourself and try to play what you're singing.

    If you get bored with your own sung lines, then it's time to do some transcription or use some theory to generate some ideas.
    I find this lecture by Gary Burton to generally express clearly what our jobs are.



    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post
    GREAT ideas! This is what I was hoping we'd find when I started this whole thing.
    rpjazzguitar, when you mentioned transcribing, it brought back a really important day. I was in school, a jazz ensemble with vibes player Dave Samuels. We'd get assigned a piece which we'd play in class. Then our assignment was to write a solo during that week.
    I think that was when I realized just how much of what I played got played without my permission... by that I mean the opportunities missed by succumbing to habit or safe playing. Writing out a solo along with working with that song in real time felt like I was soloing; all my ideas were there but so was attention to detail. My live soloing got better.
    I'd make a little list of things to try (start on an unexpected note, develop one idea, use long notes, don't forget pickup notes...) and when I was writing out the solo, I'd discover how they'd fit. Y'know, most of the time I didn't even play what I'd written, because it became part of my inner composer.

    Keep the ideas coming in!

    David
    This is one of the things that I love about Richie Zellon‘s bebop class. The main focus of the course is on internalizing various chord tone approaches. And then we are given “rhythm templates” and we are to sit down with our guitar and apply what we’ve been working on to the prescribed rhythms. It’s very slow, purposeful composition within a rhythmic limitation. Very helpful.

  11. #60

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    Wanted to post a few thoughts about “getting inside a tune” in a week, as it’s something I’ve done a lot of. I don’t intend my remarks to be “the way,” just “a way” of going about a short, but deep, dive into a tune.

    As you all probably know, I’ve been doing the “Jam of the Week” thing on Facebook for a little over 2 years now. The concept, if you’re not familiar, is each week a new tune is assigned to the group, and people are supposed to improvise one chorus on the tune and post within the one week timeframe.

    I’ve taken to posting “first impressions,” which means I try to post within the first 24-48 hours if possible. This means I need to get into a tune pretty fast—and while I go for fast—I do spend the rest of the week at least with the tune, if it’s a tune I’m intent on “keeping.”

    So my first plan of attack is listening. I try to go to the source to learn the changes, either the “original” or “definitive” version…some tunes I’ll listen to a few different versions and pick what I want out. For learning the melody, I like to find versions with vocals (assuming the song has words, that is.)

    My goal in the first few hours is to listen to the song dozens of times, try to get to where I can sing the melody as good as possible. I’ll also try to rough out a “box chart” of what I hear as the changes (if you’ve ever seen gypsy jazz “grilles,” that’s what I go for) as soon as possible, even while I’m still learning the melody.

    Now, for the sake of playing a tune fast, my next step is to actually reduce the melody, getting rid of any approach tones or enclosures or any repeated notes, trying to get things down to one or two notes a bar. On my box grid, I’ll write in what those notes are in relation to the “chord of the moment.” This way, I’m keeping the meat and potatoes of the melody in mind as I begin improvising.

    I start improvising on the tune right away…comping and single note. It’ll get better throughout the week, but I think it’s important to start the process early and not wait til Thursday before I start seeing what the tune has inside.

    Once I can sing the melody well, I’ll learn to play it. I explore it a few different ways, both the full melody and the reduced melody. I’ll learn it on one string (or as much as possible) on the treble strings, I’ll learn it in position, and I’ll do a rough “solo guitar” (or that term I don’t like “chord melody”) even if I don’t intend to play the tune that way, because it helps me visualize the melody in relationship to the chords.

    To me, it’s not a linear process. I think of it as having several pots on the stove at once, and my job is to tend to them and not let any one burn on the bottom or boil over.

    At some point in the week, I like to sit down and physically write out a lead sheet. This is a very big thing for memorization for me…I find that if I actually write a tune out, it’s a big step in the process of going from short term to long term memory. YMMV.

    Anyway, just wanted to contribute to the conversation. There’s really no better practice than learning tunes, in my opinion.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Wanted to post a few thoughts about “getting inside a tune” in a week, as it’s something I’ve done a lot of. I don’t intend my remarks to be “the way,” just “a way” of going about a short, but deep, dive into a tune.

    As you all probably know, I’ve been doing the “Jam of the Week” thing on Facebook for a little over 2 years now. The concept, if you’re not familiar, is each week a new tune is assigned to the group, and people are supposed to improvise one chorus on the tune and post within the one week timeframe.

    I’ve taken to posting “first impressions,” which means I try to post within the first 24-48 hours if possible. This means I need to get into a tune pretty fast—and while I go for fast—I do spend the rest of the week at least with the tune, if it’s a tune I’m intent on “keeping.”

    So my first plan of attack is listening. I try to go to the source to learn the changes, either the “original” or “definitive” version…some tunes I’ll listen to a few different versions and pick what I want out. For learning the melody, I like to find versions with vocals (assuming the song has words, that is.)

    My goal in the first few hours is to listen to the song dozens of times, try to get to where I can sing the melody as good as possible. I’ll also try to rough out a “box chart” of what I hear as the changes (if you’ve ever seen gypsy jazz “grilles,” that’s what I go for) as soon as possible, even while I’m still learning the melody.

    Now, for the sake of playing a tune fast, my next step is to actually reduce the melody, getting rid of any approach tones or enclosures or any repeated notes, trying to get things down to one or two notes a bar. On my box grid, I’ll write in what those notes are in relation to the “chord of the moment.” This way, I’m keeping the meat and potatoes of the melody in mind as I begin improvising.

    I start improvising on the tune right away…comping and single note. It’ll get better throughout the week, but I think it’s important to start the process early and not wait til Thursday before I start seeing what the tune has inside.

    Once I can sing the melody well, I’ll learn to play it. I explore it a few different ways, both the full melody and the reduced melody. I’ll learn it on one string (or as much as possible) on the treble strings, I’ll learn it in position, and I’ll do a rough “solo guitar” (or that term I don’t like “chord melody”) even if I don’t intend to play the tune that way, because it helps me visualize the melody in relationship to the chords.

    To me, it’s not a linear process. I think of it as having several pots on the stove at once, and my job is to tend to them and not let any one burn on the bottom or boil over.

    At some point in the week, I like to sit down and physically write out a lead sheet. This is a very big thing for memorization for me…I find that if I actually write a tune out, it’s a big step in the process of going from short term to long term memory. YMMV.

    Anyway, just wanted to contribute to the conversation. There’s really no better practice than learning tunes, in my opinion.
    Do you start out at performance tempo?

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    Do you start out at performance tempo?

    Depends-- There's tunes I can, there's ones I definitely can't. I try to if at all possible, but I also find a lot of value in treating a fast tune like a ballad for a while.

    Often the toughest part to get up to tempo is the melody itself!
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  14. #63

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    The idea of a tune a week is pretty daunting, but I might try it. I started proper lessons about a year ago and we have worked on Autumn Leaves a lot, along with just a few other tunes. I've been playing guitar for 25 years, but it's still taken me the better part of this last year just to be able to run scales or arpeggios over the changes of Autumn Leaves consistently. Playing the changes was my main goal in starting lessons. I've been a blues/rock (occasional country) box pattern and stolen lick guy up until now.

    We've started working on coming up with licks and lines over the changes, rather than just the straight scales and arpeggios. It's still very challenging for me, even at slow tempos.

    I have a lesson in couple of hours and we'll be working on AL again, along with a Joe Pass solo. I can tell that I'm making progress, especially in the last month or so. But it's slow going.

    One of the challenges for me is trying to avoid memorization. I'm bad enough that when I stumble onto something good, my brain and fingers really want to do that again the next time through, and it quickly becomes just another memorized part instead of improvisation. My teacher says not to worry too much about that at this point. But I still do.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by morroben View Post
    The idea of a tune a week is pretty daunting, but I might try it. I started proper lessons about a year ago and we have worked on Autumn Leaves a lot, along with just a few other tunes. I've been playing guitar for 25 years, but it's still taken me the better part of this last year just to be able to run scales or arpeggios over the changes of Autumn Leaves consistently. Playing the changes was my main goal in starting lessons. I've been a blues/rock (occasional country) box pattern and stolen lick guy up until now.

    We've started working on coming up with licks and lines over the changes, rather than just the straight scales and arpeggios. It's still very challenging for me, even at slow tempos.

    I have a lesson in couple of hours and we'll be working on AL again, along with a Joe Pass solo. I can tell that I'm making progress, especially in the last month or so. But it's slow going.

    One of the challenges for me is trying to avoid memorization. I'm bad enough that when I stumble onto something good, my brain and fingers really want to do that again the next time through, and it quickly becomes just another memorized part instead of improvisation. My teacher says not to worry too much about that at this point. But I still do.
    The Superchops practice regimen on which this current thread of David’s is loosely based, requires you to play slow enough that you don’t make any mistakes, starting out with a constant stream of eighth notes. This was particularly challenging for me because some of the changes that were presented from the very beginning were way more complex than what I was used to. But I slowed the metronome down to the mid 30s and was basically able to hang. over time, I was able to increase my tempo up towards 70 bpm.

    And now, in this thread, without the rhythmic restrictions of the strict superchops regimen, playing at normal and increasing tempos, I’m finding that I actually improved by leaps and bounds. Playing ridiculously slowly brings its own challenges but even if you’re just focusing on one or two notes per chord, I think there’s something for you to learn. Intimidating yes, but dive in, go as slowly as you need to, and have fun. You’ll make mistakes, certainly, but the important thing is to learn from them.
    Last edited by wzpgsr; 10-05-2017 at 12:04 PM.

  16. #65

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    Just to continue a bit from my previous post. Take the opening 251 of autumn leaves. Let’s say you’ve got your metronome set at 48 bpm, which is where I started. Can you find a note that sounds good over each chord of that 251? Just a single note repeated over all three chords? If so, what can you do with that single note rhythmically over each of the cords? Starting on different strong beats, weak beats can you make it swing? Can you make it swing by just playing quarter notes? Eighth notes? How does the swing feel change if you’re hearing triplets to keep time instead of eighth or quarter notes? How does that same single note sound over the minor 251s? What does it sound like over the two bars of descending two fives? Maybe you play an entire chorus just with that one note, just experimenting with different rhythms. Maybe throughout the 10 minute solo, you’ll play four or five courses. Maybe on the second chorus, you introduce a second note that sounds good. It could be a chromatic approach from below, it could be a chord tone. Whatever. Maybe you just alternate back-and-forth between the two notes, listening, and trying to translate the rhythms you hear in your head, into music. Maybe you sing along the rhythms that you hear in your head.

    There’s a great Peter Bernstein video where he’s working with another guitar player in what I believe is a clinic setting. They’re playing some tune at a pretty fast tempo, and the student is obviously intimidated and let’s Bernstein know this. Bernstein says something like well you’ve got to have something to say, it doesn’t necessarily need to be fast or flashy, just find something to say and say it. That could be one note!
    Last edited by wzpgsr; 10-05-2017 at 12:18 PM.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by morroben View Post
    The idea of a tune a week is pretty daunting, but I might try it. I started proper lessons about a year ago and we have worked on Autumn Leaves a lot, along with just a few other tunes. I've been playing guitar for 25 years, but it's still taken me the better part of this last year just to be able to run scales or arpeggios over the changes of Autumn Leaves consistently. Playing the changes was my main goal in starting lessons. I've been a blues/rock (occasional country) box pattern and stolen lick guy up until now.

    We've started working on coming up with licks and lines over the changes, rather than just the straight scales and arpeggios. It's still very challenging for me, even at slow tempos.

    I have a lesson in couple of hours and we'll be working on AL again, along with a Joe Pass solo. I can tell that I'm making progress, especially in the last month or so. But it's slow going.

    One of the challenges for me is trying to avoid memorization. I'm bad enough that when I stumble onto something good, my brain and fingers really want to do that again the next time through, and it quickly becomes just another memorized part instead of improvisation. My teacher says not to worry too much about that at this point. But I still do.
    Working with a good teacher is an amazing experience. I hope you can find that what you do with your lessons goes well with what we do here.
    I've never been one to learn by licks, but I am a big advocate of developing a good ear and the knowledge of what it is you're hearing. From there I think it's really exciting to create your own licks.
    There were two threads that this one grew out of. One was the Howard Roberts Super Chops, and the other was based on the Greg Fishman etudes. Both of them held with the belief that applying and developing your own ear and vocabulary is just as effective as anything else you can do.

    There's no real guideline to how you approach these tunes, but I've chosen them carefully (52 tunes for a year if we follow through) and I'll include study notes and tips for each tune and a THURSDAY SHARE AND HANG post for each piece so we can pool our helpful insights. Ask questions about anything here. Let's create an amazing pool of collective knowledge. Each question you ask is one someone didn't know how to ask. I guarantee that.

    Really though, once we do a few, you'll begin to see how they all connect to each other, and it becomes closer to a theme and variation for each new addition.

    Glad you're aboard. Develop your ear, be aware of the tonal environment and you will become a better player.

    I've known a LOT of good players. I'm lucky to know some great players. I'll honestly say that I believe the thing that makes a player great is they're the ones that love it enough that they never gave up. They're constantly learning.
    A tune a week is one way to keep that process fresh.

    David

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by morroben View Post
    The idea of a tune a week is pretty daunting, but I might try it.
    No it actually fits into the Howard Roberts approach that GIT was founded on. It might not be enough time and you make yourself stop at the end of the week. The next week, next song you find ways to get more done. Over a few weeks suddenly a week is more than enough time. You also have learn to control turn on and off focusing on getting something done. You've learned to learn faster.

    At GIT it wasn't week HR gave us it was tasks all during the day. Work on this assignment/exercise for 15 minutes, then move to the next. Next day might be work on similar exercise but only have 14 minutes the times were all different. But in long run you learned with I'm in my practice mode, I'm focused, and getting work done. HR also stressed have breaks at certain intervals and what to do on the break. HR really understood how the brain learns.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post
    I've never been one to learn by licks, but I am a big advocate of developing a good ear and the knowledge of what it is you're hearing. From there I think it's really exciting to create your own licks.
    Just to be clear, when I said my teacher and I have started working on licks and lines, I mean creating my own. Not stock licks. I probably should have said "phrasing". I just mean getting away from running scales and arpeggios, and getting into making music...while still sticking to the changes, resolving to chord tones etc.

    You guys weren't kidding when you say you practice slow. I've been trying to work on these lines this week at 60 bpm, and it sounds like that might be too fast? I have a hard time hearing the melody over the changes when it's much slower than that. And when I lose the melody in my head, things fall apart quickly.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by morroben View Post
    Just to be clear, when I said my teacher and I have started working on licks and lines, I mean creating my own. Not stock licks. I probably should have said "phrasing". I just mean getting away from running scales and arpeggios, and getting into making music...while still sticking to the changes, resolving to chord tones etc.

    You guys weren't kidding when you say you practice slow. I've been trying to work on these lines this week at 60 bpm, and it sounds like that might be too fast? I have a hard time hearing the melody over the changes when it's much slower than that. And when I lose the melody in my head, things fall apart quickly.
    Well, I think my case is an extreme example. And you’re absolutely right, there are certain challenges to practicing that slow, but the thing is, it somehow all comes together. Like Dr. bop says, it’s a new way of learning, and you have to learn how to learn. My experiences with the super chops program, over 20 weeks, have left no doubt in my mind that working through, struggling through tunes is to me, the absolute most effective use of my time.

  21. #70

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    Well... Here is my take on the AL and my very first recording shared here actually. Still learning this stuff out. All feedback and advices would be very helpful. I'm here to learn. I would say that this clip captures where I am as player. Still beginner and much work to do with basics (rhythm, time, etc.). In solo I try to make the changes, but it's pretty mindless noodling.


  22. #71

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    I thought that sounded pretty darn good. It didn’t really sound like noodling either. During your improvisations, I could tell that you were playing Autumn Leaves, and not just noodling over 251s. That, to me, can be a big challenge.

  23. #72

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    Screw it, first take, press record whatever comes out, comes out no thinking.

    Navdeep Singh.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Sorry for the double, but I also have an idea on how to construct a solo.

    This works (for me, anyway) when I can feel the changes and find the chord tones without too much thought.

    At home, strum the chords and sing a solo. If you sing a line you like, figure out how to play it.

    On the bandstand, let the other instruments influence what you're singing in your mind. A good way is to start the solo sparsely. Leave some space and pay attention to the other instruments. The drummer may give you rhythmic ideas. Same for the piano. If the bass is playing a busy pattern, figure you'll need to stay simpler. And, the reverse. You may remember a lick from the soloist before you -- and you can try to incorporate it.

    When you start sparsely, it makes it easier to build the solo up. My best advice is to sing to yourself and try to play what you're singing.

    If you get bored with your own sung lines, then it's time to do some transcription or use some theory to generate some ideas.
    I've often said that it's good to listen to the wrap up of the last soloist and react to that. Then you can really improvise, and better yet converse---get out of your own head.

    There was a guy back in NY who I played with sometimes, and not by choice b/c he was in such a hurry to play what I guess he thought was some happening stuff he stepped on the end of MY little safari---and EVERY time. Music killer...
    Last edited by fasstrack; 10-05-2017 at 05:43 PM.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jhui View Post
    Well... Here is my take on the AL and my very first recording shared here actually. Still learning this stuff out. All feedback and advices would be very helpful. I'm here to learn. I would say that this clip captures where I am as player. Still beginner and much work to do with basics (rhythm, time, etc.). In solo I try to make the changes, but it's pretty mindless noodling.

    Yeah, but you get a sound----a beautiful one. That's half the battle---at least. A good sound makes people want to hear more...

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post
    GREAT ideas! This is what I was hoping we'd find when I started this whole thing.
    rpjazzguitar, when you mentioned transcribing, it brought back a really important day. I was in school, a jazz ensemble with vibes player Dave Samuels. We'd get assigned a piece which we'd play in class. Then our assignment was to write a solo during that week. David
    Some time back I had a teacher assign something similar. He had me write out some solo ideas. He added a rule, which is that the lines had to have chord tones on the strong beats.

    I wrote some out and, perhaps surprisingly, I still use one of them.

    To put this in context, I have spent far longer periods of practice time learning other people's licks - with very few really getting into my playing.

    Also, somehow, actually writing it down in standard notation may have helped my retention. I strum chords and sing lines all the time -- and none of that seems to stick.

    I've also noticed that I'm more likely to retain something that somebody shows me in person, compared to reading it in a book or even copying it off a record. That doesn't make sense, but it's the way it works for me.

    An aside: the strumming and singing thing -- last night I tried it with the first few bars of Out of Nowhere. The lines I sang were much more interesting than the lines I played without singing. Even on two bars of Gmaj7. I really should do more of that!

    The implication for soloing is interesting. Do I need more work on theory or transcription? Or, maybe first, I should work on letting my mind lead my fingers instead of the other way around. Apparently, I can already hear, in my mind, better ideas than the ones I tend to play. I need to catch up to my own ideas.

  27. #76

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    Great thread. Thanks TruthHertz. Having fun with this. Will try to follow up.

    Took the given chart. F# in the key signature tells the chart is in Gmajor. Gmajor tonality contains Gmaj7 as Imaj7, Cmajor as IVmaj7 and Em7 as VIm7). Relative minor is Emin and the composer made good use of it in alternate form as explained in the OP.

    I liked the idea of the OP of using colors. I did the exercise. In the A section, I see the first four measures( "the falling leaves drift by my window") as yellow with a chain of Am7 ascending in fifths to D7, then descending to Gmajor and ending in Cmajor (IVmaj7) (Brown).

    Measures 5 to 8: ("the autumn leaves, of red and gold") I see them in green, with F#m7b5 ascending to B7, and descending to Em7. Locrian mode of Emin harmonic scale probably would fit here but still not there.

    Yellow and Green alternate until the last eight measures, where we find a descending run. (In the bass I substituted Eb7 with A7 and Db7 with G7 in In the guitar go Em9 Eb9#5 Dm9 Eb9#5 and of course there are plenty possibilities here for substitutions.)

    Second, I played the melody slowly many times as written. Not embeleshing, or trusting my memory. Just many times as written and memorized it.

    Third, wanted to actually hum the song, not just do it just mentally, so I found my range transposing it to Db, a nice exercise. Then
    I switched to the bass and played the song structure just in 3rds and sevenths for each chord humming it for about half hour with no chart or other written aid in sight.

    So far so good.

    Very basic but again, made me take my guitar and bass guitar out of the closet and have fun playing a while.

    Thanks TruthHertz and all the fellow forum members who contribute to the thread.

  28. #77

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    Hey David, what did you have in mind for the "fast" end of slow to fast?

    The upper end of your tempo range?
    Just beyond your comfort zone?
    Or maybe 'truly brisk' -- sink or swim?
    Jay

    'boobadoobadoobaooababop!'

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu View Post
    Hey David, what did you have in mind for the "fast" end of slow to fast?

    The upper end of your tempo range?
    Just beyond your comfort zone?
    Or maybe 'truly brisk' -- sink or swim?
    In control, comfortable and within the awareness of what's happening. I'm not pushing to break the speed limit, but rather so we can get a good idea of how our perceptions and note choices change as we get to faster tunes.
    So many up tempo tunes are learned as presto pieces and we don't get to know them the same way we'd know a ballad. I think it'd be great to keep the tune constant and the tempo increasing so we can "run the spectrum" so to speak.

    Don't worry about pushing the limits, we're going to be playing a LOT of tunes!

    Just today I was speaking with a guitar player, and he went to MI (used to be GIT) in California, the place Howard Roberts was there at the start for. He said the big thing there was immersion, time with the guitar, and guidance when asked for. Really, you found your own strengths through playing.
    That'd be great, eh?

    David

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    An aside: the strumming and singing thing -- last night I tried it with the first few bars of Out of Nowhere. The lines I sang were much more interesting than the lines I played without singing. Even on two bars of Gmaj7. I really should do more of that!

    The implication for soloing is interesting. Do I need more work on theory or transcription? Or, maybe first, I should work on letting my mind lead my fingers instead of the other way around. Apparently, I can already hear, in my mind, better ideas than the ones I tend to play. I need to catch up to my own ideas.
    This is a really powerful observation. I won't get into it here and now but about 8 years ago I underwent a revelation in my understanding of how we learn. I was in school at the time and I was studying right and left hemisphere processing and how we think of things when we're learning. In short, we process information in different ways: for detail and like a filing cabinet-that's left hemisphere- and seeing the whole and how it fits together-that's the right- and balance is the goal. I began working closely with Mick Goodrick on this and we started to use art, perception exercises and an art session format in learning music.
    Deep stuff and amazingly powerful.
    But all this is to say, learning right brain goes deep and it comes from doing and the hang. Yeah, it really informs the way I urge others to learn too.

    Some time in the future, this will be the "interesting thought of the week" topic. It'll be fun.

    David

  31. #80

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    This is a great idea !!
    I am in !!


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  32. #81

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    Is the idea to record the process as we go ? or are just posting the finished product ?

    Do you want to hear the recording of the bass lines, chords etc ?
    Do you want to hear it as a ballad/medium and up tempo ? or will our best execution suffice ?

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    Is the idea to record the process as we go ? or are just posting the finished product ?

    Do you want to hear the recording of the bass lines, chords etc ?
    Do you want to hear it as a ballad/medium and up tempo ? or will our best execution suffice ?
    All postings or contributions are strictly up to you and the enthusiastic support of this community. Really the goal here is to have you wake up one morning and say "NOW I get what it's all about!"

    I love to listen to them and as time allows, I'll give specific commentaries. Often there are things that are coming together on their own are good left to gel.
    Post as you please, I know for a fact that everything that is posted is an inspiration and encouragement to all here. Thanks guys!

    David

  34. #83

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    Commit to a song a week. What could a serious student hope to learn?-screen-shot-2017-10-08-9-47-31-am-png

    So the format is simple and I thank Howard Roberts for his tried and tested template.
    1. Warm up each day and find the comfort zone of your guitar.
    2. Record a 10 minute backing track. From a bass line, to a simple (don't make it too rhythmically complicated-it's for you to solo on) chordal approach. This will also improve as you go through the year so just do it.
    3. Rest for 5 minutes. Clear your head.
    4. Solo for 10 minutes. How you solo is up to you.
    5. Rest for 5 minutes. Clear your head. What do you think of what you played? What did you miss? What do you need to address? Make and take notes on areas of improvement if you want.
    6. Solo for 10 minutes.
    7. Rest for 5 minutes.
    8. Solo for 10 minutes.
    9. Think back and make notes on what you liked and what you wish you could've done.

    The goal here is to get off book and tap into the piece and discover what you can about your evolving improvisational skills.
    If you haven't gotten to where you want on last week's piece, leave it. Sometimes you pick up things along the way and all of a sudden everything you couldn't do makes sense.

    If you've worked with this piece before, no matter. Take the tempo from a ballad on day one and progress through a tempo increase each day for the week. You may get something you never saw before.

    The piece is centred around the tonality of C Major.
    I'll post some study notes in a post following.

    Here's the thought of the week: You can look at a musical statement in many ways. As a composer, you can start from point A and wind up in point B. You can also start with some specific point B in mind and think of differing strategies and routes to wind up there. You might think about how a simple thing like attitude and strategy effects the route and the musical statement you make.

    David

  35. #84

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    Here's a thought.

    All of Me has a lot of chords which are held for 8 beats.

    First thing, reharmonize the tune.

    So, for example, instead of 8 beats of Cmaj7 at the top, pencil into the chart: 2 beats each of Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Dm7.

    For the backing track, just keep the original 8 beats of Cmaj7.

    But, when you're soloing, solo over the penciled-in changes.

    For the E7, maybe Bm7b5 to Bb13.

    For the A7, maybe A7#11 to A7. (Or, stay on the Bb13 for a couple of extra beats over the bar line before dropping down into the A7).

    For the Dm7, pass the root down chromatically, so it's Dm, Dmmaj, Dm7, Dm6

    And so forth. Solo on the penciled in changes in every case and hear how the juxtaposition against the original harmony sounds.

    The idea is that I often hear good players do this -- they solo over an imagined set of changes that isn't what the comping is actually doing at the time.

  36. #85

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    I've always liked this piece. For me, it's a somewhat stable tonally clear piece like Autumn (no crazy modulations) but it's interesting because there's so much dominant 7th harmony in it. Where you'd normally have a diatonic chord (I to III-) there are all these dominant 7 chords (I to III 7) . This is a nice piece to take a peek at the role of the 7th chord in diatonic harmony.

    Diatonic chords always primary colours for me. They are essential to hearing a key and can be subtle in those colours too. Diatonicism has the stability of familiarity. Dominant chords have a strong feeling of movement to my ear.

    This piece is a good piece to get by ear, it flows nicely.
    I think it'd be a fun project to lay out the root movement in diatonic roman numerals, with the chords played as major and minor diatonic chords. It's got a good "inside" almost Hans Groiner vibe to it. Then rewrite the dominant chords as red symbols (red III7, red VI7, etc) and watch the architecture of harmonic movement that makes this piece compelling.

    Put together a vocabulary together of dominant phrases and impart a feeling of movement to your flow. See how you can choose your notes to convey intention. A good dominant 7th bag is a truly powerful tool. If you get anything out of this week's song, that's a good one. There are many 7th chord melodic choices, from mixolydian to whole tone. Each has its own flavour and punch to it. Learn to hear and control them.

    Melodically, this piece has a great motific flow. Notice how each phrase is made up of descending motifs that rest on notes of gravity. Take notice of how these little phrases work, how they outline a chordal area and how pickup notes function.
    I'll let you explore this yourself, but take what you observe and create your own melodies inspired by, or in contrast to the melody.
    Get the feel, the overall flow of the piece and be mindful as you make your playing decisions.

    Ask any questions you have. And we'll have an in-depth discussion on what we've uncovered and discovered in the Thursday hang.

    I hope this piece turns out to be a fun experience!

    David

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Here's a thought.

    All of Me has a lot of chords which are held for 8 beats.

    First thing, reharmonize the tune.

    .
    Yeah, this piece is great because it offers so much for everyone on every level. For the more advanced and adventurous, different approaches to the next chord (target chord) are SO satisfying and challenging. You could definitely learn a lifetime's reharmonizations with this tune.

    At a later time, we'll take a look at how superimposing cycles and "outside" passages is an outgrowth from what we can do here.

    The pieces from now on will be built on the relationships of diatonic chords and secondary dominants. What we can get from this tune builds a lot of groundwork. Plus, this is just a lot of fun to play!

    David

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Here's a thought.

    All of Me has a lot of chords which are held for 8 beats.

    First thing, reharmonize the tune.

    So, for example, instead of 8 beats of Cmaj7 at the top, pencil into the chart: 2 beats each of Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Dm7.

    For the backing track, just keep the original 8 beats of Cmaj7.

    But, when you're soloing, solo over the penciled-in changes.

    For the E7, maybe Bm7b5 to Bb13.

    For the A7, maybe A7#11 to A7. (Or, stay on the Bb13 for a couple of extra beats over the bar line before dropping down into the A7).

    For the Dm7, pass the root down chromatically, so it's Dm, Dmmaj, Dm7, Dm6

    And so forth. Solo on the penciled in changes in every case and hear how the juxtaposition against the original harmony sounds.

    The idea is that I often hear good players do this -- they solo over an imagined set of changes that isn't what the comping is actually doing at the time.
    That really nails, I think, why I was having so much trouble with a lot of the Howard Roberts changes in super chops. Everything was re-harmonized to such a degree that my lack of experience was killing me. But, I definitely learned from it. On Autumn Leaves for example, instead of playing a vanilla D7 for the V cord in the major 251, I’m now playing an A flat flat seven sharp 11 to get some root movement down to the G. I think I will take a somewhat simpler approach than you laid out, and just try to reharmonize a you bars here in with All of Me.

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    That really nails, I think, why I was having so much trouble with a lot of the Howard Roberts changes in super chops. Everything was re-harmonized to such a degree that my lack of experience was killing me.

    Yes, he had some ideas of where baseline was for his target audience. Here during our journey, I'm going to try to be mindful of how diverse our levels are and offer a simple DIY approach, with some handy suggestions on approaches. The more questions asked, the more we can flesh out approaches, or even exercises that might help. ' don't want to overwhelm anyone with too much advice... plenty of that in the world, but find your speed, your information/theory level and play. I guarantee you'll take it to the next level.

    David

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Here's a thought.

    All of Me has a lot of chords which are held for 8 beats.

    First thing, reharmonize the tune.

    You can always imply all those changes in your solo while rhythm stays on basic changes. That way your solo can add motion over a static rhythm.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  41. #90

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    david..good post

    In all of the information given..two aspects MUST be in your being..patients and determination..you have to give the music life and feel it..and in the end BE the music...in watching chick corea and john McLaughlin work together is a master class in music and communication and a joy to listen
    .
    my beginnings were an amalgam of Davids approach and the teachings of classical and jazz masters of all instruments..and the amazing amount of information they absorb and distribute


    I worked with another guitarist who had a teacher that studied with Segovia so his approach was from the strict classical school..I studied with Ted Greene and wanted to explore jazz and blues ..

    We worked out of a "fake book" and much like the approach David is using we did a song a week..4-5 hrs a session every day --fast forward--after a year we had about 40 tunes we could really play well comp and solo, trade 4' & 8's etc.

    My partner then went to the Dick Grove school to study composition and after some months began to write some very tasty tunes along the lines of Earl Kluge who was just beginning to get air play at that time.
    There was a club called the "banjo café" it was a bluegrass club and they had an open mike night contest..we signed up..and went on first..and performed two tunes he wrote al la Kluge-on nylon string guitars..we received a very warm response..all the following acts were..well bluegrass flavored..there were approx. 10 acts in the 2 hour contest..anyway...we won-go figure

    these days I am taking apart standards and dressing them up with some harmony changes just to see what I can discover without a lead sheet in front of me...I also find the study of Zen to be helpful in many ways with my study of music
    Last edited by wolflen; 10-08-2017 at 08:45 PM.
    play well ...
    wolf

  42. #91

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    When is the first song due ?


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  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    When is the first song due ?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Hi Doublea A, the songs come once a week, and because it's a continuously ongoing introduction of ideas, and a collective pool of knowledge and skill, there are never any due projects, or not by any specific date.
    The skill it takes to learn a song with the depth and appreciation it takes to re-compose an improvisation is multilayered.
    Over time, we'll learn to hear form, to build a rhythmic vocabulary, to use dynamics to shade an idea... and tons of other stuff. All this will be good retrospectively too. So what you might pick up this week will inform last week's song in ways you never imagined.

    We learn the songs by doing them and the solos will become more personal, controlled and expressive over time. Every time your approach gets more intentional and personal, you've achieved a goal with flying colours.

    Give each tune a week and banish the concept of mastery or producing a finished product. It'll come in its own time. The next week we begin again.

    This is a process I think is close to the acquisition of a community supported folk skill. It's like learning art with ongoing critiques and questions and the discovery process is by your own clock.

    I look forward to your revelations!

    David

  44. #93

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    The funny thing is, “all of me” has been played death by a lot of people, it was practically in every Miles Davis set for a while.

    I never really learned the tune, it never really pulled me in as a standard. Nonetheless, I’ll work on it. I tried to google lyrics, and the first thing that came up was a tune by a guy I never heard of before, John legend.

    Safe bet, when trying to google lyrics of standards, prophecy google entry with the words, “Frank Sinatra“ or “Ella Fitzgerald“.

    its really an ABAC, 1-3-6-2-5 thing. I learned the A section tonight. That’s 16 of the 32 bars down. 16 more to go. .
    Navdeep Singh.

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post
    Hi Doublea A, the songs come once a week, and because it's a continuously ongoing introduction of ideas, and a collective pool of knowledge and skill, there are never any due projects, or not by any specific date.
    The skill it takes to learn a song with the depth and appreciation it takes to re-compose an improvisation is multilayered.
    Over time, we'll learn to hear form, to build a rhythmic vocabulary, to use dynamics to shade an idea... and tons of other stuff. All this will be good retrospectively too. So what you might pick up this week will inform last week's song in ways you never imagined.

    We learn the songs by doing them and the solos will become more personal, controlled and expressive over time. Every time your approach gets more intentional and personal, you've achieved a goal with flying colours.

    Give each tune a week and banish the concept of mastery or producing a finished product. It'll come in its own time. The next week we begin again.

    This is a process I think is close to the acquisition of a community supported folk skill. It's like learning art with ongoing critiques and questions and the discovery process is by your own clock.

    I look forward to your revelations!

    David
    Are people posting their work ?


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  46. #95

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    I will occasionally. I decided that in the future though i will pick one or two choruses instead of an entire 10 minute session like I have been posting because...ick.

  47. #96

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    Warn Marsh did a contrafact on "All of Me" called "Background Music". Definitely worth a listen.

  48. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    Are people posting their work ?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Please!!
    I think it'll become easier as we go along, because the progressive weeks will surely give us more to say and an ease of saying it.
    Please!
    I know we are all at different levels and there's so much offered in each time someone posts clips. Short of a regular hang where we get together, shoot the breeze and play what's on our minds, encourage (and steal ... be inspired by) one another, I like having a safe place where we can all learn, play and listen.

    Each week is a fresh slate. Every week we're a beginner. Some weeks we have more we can do and say. Some days we have something we feel like sharing.

    I look forward to this!

    David

  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by guido5 View Post
    Warn Marsh did a contrafact on "All of Me" called "Background Music". Definitely worth a listen.
    Wow! That's nice!


    Thanks for bringing that to us. Very inspiring.

    David

  50. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    Are people posting their work ?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I'll try to post. If nothing else, then just to track my own progress and see if my playing gets any better. IMO this thread would benefit people posting their playing. You can find lots of ideas and tips when listening others play the same tune. Great choice for week 2 song btw!

  51. #100

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    Hope you're having a good time with this tune.
    I'd mentioned blocking out the song, on the chart and in your mind. So I've posted a "map" that's really helpful for me when I'm digging into a piece.
    Ear comes first for me always, to the point that I won't even look at a chart until I'm able to hum the tune and know the twists and turns by ear in some way.

    Then I'll take a chart and do this to it:

    Commit to a song a week. What could a serious student hope to learn?-fullsizerender-50-jpg

    So I thought I'd share some thoughts as I'm making my way through the second week.
    These small two measure blocks are great places to gather up, plan and execute fresh ideas. I think "rambling" is one of the greatest dangers of playing a solo; falling into a mode of playing that fizzles.
    If I've got a smaller "block" of space, a two bar section of a distinctive harmonic sound, I'm more inclined to be able to plan an idea.
    It's a helpful thing for me to have a "book" of ideas I carry in my head or in a notebook.
    Some ideas:
    You can make a solo with only rhythmic priority. Just think about the rhythm. One note, even. Or just tapping your hand... But make the rhythm interesting. Listen to Hank Mobley, or Dexter, or any of those cats with their own sound. It's HOW the note is played. Make a rhythm in a "block" and follow it with equally intentional rhythms. That may change your idea of space.
    You can start your "block" somewhere other than beat one... or the root... or even besides a chord tone. Even start before the bar line with pickup notes.
    Watch your idea of contour, up and down movement. Look at the head of All of Me. Imagine yourself playing that as a solo. See the way each "block" phrase has the last one in mind? Make (or write out) a solo with that much intention.

    So some ideas to start with. Finally, those red phrases, they have a tension inherent to them. You'll start to feel it as your ears get better. They tend to lead up a 4th to the next chord. That's the strength of secondary dominants: They are companions to their targets. That's why I wrote those red arrows. Think of the red chords in a way so they're leading to the next chord.
    I'll leave it to you to wrestle with that. Good luck with the AHA! moment.

    Share your thoughts with the group!

    David