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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Carol King is great song-writer but she is more in commercial style... using lots of cliches of pop.
    Think it's EASY writing those 'cliches'? It is NOT. To create a perfect marriage between lyric, melody and style takes hard, dogged work---and LOTS of rewrites (and hair-tearing).

    Any songwriter (and I've been one since noodling around at age 10) will tell you that to craft the best lyric FOR THAT SONG you use whatever it takes, novelty phrases, true rhyme, false rhyme, no rhyme (Moonlight in Vermont). Of COURSE you don't want to resort to cliche, but sometimes---on a deadline like CarolE (NOT Carol) King had to continually meet sometimes you can find no other word.

    Oscar Hammerstein always regretted the word 'divine' ('I'll know the joy divine'...) in All the Things You Are. Jimmy Webb has been crying for years b/c 'time/line' aren't 'true rhymes'.

    Maybe Ms. King's 'Oh, baby---when I see your face...' isn't up there with lines from The Twelfth Night, but you know what? 'I Feel the Earth Move' and all the above songs have stood the test of time----and will outlive all of us...

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  3. #27

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    As much as I love Joni Mitchell (and Carole King) she drops a cliche in there now and then. I not going to make a list but it can get a little corny at times. Hollywood hippie chick stuff, kind of like some of her paintings. Bob Dylan might be one of the only songwriters that rarely if ever resorted to using a cliche unless it was for comic effect, which is probably one reason why he won the prize recently.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by fasstrack
    Think it's EASY writing those 'cliches'? It is NOT. To create a perfect marriage between lyric, melody and style takes hard, dogged work---and LOTS of rewrites (and hair-tearing).

    Any songwriter (and I've been one since noodling around at age 10) will tell you that to craft the best lyric FOR THAT SONG you use whatever it takes, novelty phrases, true rhyme, false rhyme, no rhyme (Moonlight in Vermont). Of COURSE you don't want to resort to cliche, but sometimes---on a deadline like CarolE (NOT Carol) King had to continually meet sometimes you can find no other word.

    Oscar Hammerstein always regretted the word 'divine' ('I'll know the joy divine'...) in All the Things You Are. Jimmy Webb has been crying for years b/c 'time/line' aren't 'true rhymes'.

    Maybe Ms. King's 'Oh, baby---when I see your face...' isn't up there with lines from The Twelfth Night, but you know what? 'I Feel the Earth Move' and all the above songs have stood the test of time----and will outlive all of us...
    You respond to something did not write

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  5. #29

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    I think putting 'female song writing' category is wrong. The fact they are women can affect the topic they choose sometimes, but it has nothing to do with quality of song writing. In this thread they are put on the same board for no reason. They do each their job but it's very different jobs and that they are both women should not be the reason to begin comparison.

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  6. #30

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    As much as I love Joni Mitchell (and Carole King) she drops a cliche in there now and then. I not going to make a list but it can get a little corny at times. Hollywood hippie chick stuff, kind of like some of her paintings. Bob Dylan might be one of the only songwriters that rarely if ever resorted to using a cliche unless it was for comic effect, which is probably one reason why he won the prize recently.


    I believe American music is so much influenced by business approach that it became a part of aesthetics even (Hollywood is a good example too. I am not sure I can find a single American film director who would be completely aesthetically free from the influence of business industry - maybe Orson Welles... I mean aesthetical influence that is when you do (or change) something artistic in the movie because it's the logics of the market... it's not necessarily bad... we can see lots of good movies like some of Woody Allen, Scorcese, Kazan (or even Spielberg sometimes) etc that do not avoid this influence and manage to make it a part of piece of arts).
    Same thing happens to music too... I think it is getting to be just a part of nature maybe even...

    I would say there are gifted professional song-writers and lyricits who manage to follow market demands, operating all these cliches and all and still sound fresh and interesting...

    And there are 'singing poets' who just ignore these market issues... but again I am sure if it is completely possible in America...

    To me one of of the wittest case is Randy Newman... he is like fooling everybody around all the time... juggling with cleches always on the edge that you cannot get if it is serious or not.. because if it is serious it is too corny but he always does something taht makes you feel that he is not.. but still he is...

    Joni follows much more rock rebellion tradition... that chose deliberately to ignore that market thing which does not mean they could really follow it becasue if it is a part of a nature than you can hardly aviod it even conciously...

    I agree that sometimes Joni uses some kind of expresiions that seem a bit on the edge of corny... but all in all her aesthetics is different - general approach somehow turns these cliches into individual expression...
    Though sometimes it seems to me that she did some lyrics a bit in hurry... like not trying to overview it...

    Another important point form me... actually maybe the most important one about he (that's why I inderline it)

    Her lyrics is strictly connected with very individual and specific intonation and rythmic style of singing...

    I think in her art it is probably one of the most important sources where it comes from... she seems to derive lyrics from basic 'humming', some inner rythm she has... and I believe that's where here specific comping patterns and chords come from.. she just tries to find some comping that fits her inner hearing.

    Bob Dylan is more subtle for me as a writer... but in a way namely as a writer... his work fits paper much more.

    As per Carol King - her starting point seems to be already in the some predetermined conditions.

    It's like Lennon/McCartney thing.. McCartney is great but his song writing from the very beginning was in the trend of combining traditional professional song-writing tools used with great talent, oftne very subtle and exquisite..
    And Lennon sometimes just takes a couple of chords and sounds like he just invented song-writing...

    In a way Joni and John stay ever amateurs artistically... they do not learn anything except their own thing.



  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcee
    As much as I love Joni Mitchell (and Carole King) she drops a cliche in there now and then. I not going to make a list but it can get a little corny at times. Hollywood hippie chick stuff, kind of like some of her paintings. Bob Dylan might be one of the only songwriters that rarely if ever resorted to using a cliche unless it was for comic effect, which is probably one reason why he won the prize recently.
    Who among us is perfect?

    Horace Silver was sometimes corny (The Preacher, some of his playing---quote after quote----and, speaking of lyrics, whew---well-meant but wince-worthy), but we remember his great songs, tight band and propulsive swing of his playing.

    Stevie Wonder writes the most beautiful melodies this side of heaven, but sometimes gets away with murder in his lyrics ('You make me smile, you make me sing, you make me feel GOOD'S EVERYTHING'. C'mon. Most singers covering Too Shy to Say sing '...and everything). I think his best lyrics were co-written w/Syreeta Wright.

    So even the greats aren't perfect---and that's the beauty of it, they're human---like us. Criticism has a place---in study it helps show what not to do. When it takes on a life of its own...

    Tom Harrell is the best musician of all of us, and besides being amazingly gifted and a hard worker I think his secret is finding the good in the music he hears by others...

  8. #32

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    Ain't nobody perfect. Joni says it herself in her song You Turn Me on I'm a Radio. "I'm a country station I'm a little bit corny".

  9. #33

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    Hostage smiles on Presidents
    Freedom scribbled in the subways

    off Shadows and Light
    The whole lyric is superb ...

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by fasstrack
    I've been playing her songs lately. The melodies and changes are very beautiful and easy to learn---and stand alone without lyrics. The lyrics are amazing, and I want to do her songs with singers I work with... what an artist! The songs will live on.
    I am very glad you brought Joni's work to this forum! She is simply remarkable and an icon of a generation. You have no doubt seen this, but in case others have not, I thought to share a link to her concert in Paris featuring Pat Metheny, Jaco Pastorius, Michael Brecker, Lyle Mays, and Don Alias. What a night that must have been ...


  11. #35

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    Joni Mitchell - a breathtaking, astonishing artist, in my humble opinion. Beyond a certain point, comparisons can become odious, and I won't say she has no equal, even if I might be tempted. But certainly, surely, an artist of the very very highest level. Saying that, yes, occasionally I've found the odd thing she did a bit corny - I often think we like even great artists, despite their flaws, and not because we are blind to them. It's just that they are so obviously great, their work so powerful, that such things become entirely unimportant.

    For myself, Hissing of Summer Lawns has always been a favourite album - she was just on another level at this point, and the music just has such a wonderful, and unique vision.


  12. #36

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    your 21 and rich..famous..sex drugs and rock and roll..and rolls with top players in make believe..flies away..hugs Jazz by its invitation..takes off the safety vest..the parachute the survival jacket and access to dreams hopes and fears..arrows of people who just learned how to write and cant dance..but are learning how to read the second verse..purity crucified with technology so clean and painless you want one in every color

  13. #37

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    Though I love all of Joni's songs, this one just swings like no other:



    And what a painter as well!