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YEs, I know there are roman numerals to identify progressions, but memorizing bunch of numbers is confusing. Memorizing the chords are the same.
I am in a "deep crisis" with that, I often forgot songs when I am the rhythm guitarist. Also can forget the melody, it doesnt matter how much I practised/listened to that. Maybe its stage fright, I dont know, but I must memorize plenty of songs.
Same is with my chord melodies. It doesnt matter how much I practised them, I can forget anytime whats next. Thats a bit frustrating. I cant rely only on my muscle memory, thats what I realized by now. But I just cant memorize those songs...
There is a Scott Henderson video on the net, in which the master is asked;"hom many standards do You know at the moment?". Scott was thinking a bit then answered; "I could play three now".
Whats Your tool to memorize songs/chord progressions?
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06-18-2017 03:05 AM
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As a beginner I only know about a handful (or two) that I could play from the top of my head.
Most of the times I have learned them quite thoroughly and played them often enough that they stick but if I haven't played one for some time I may need a quick glance at a lead sheet to blow away any cobwebs - like when there's a tricky turnaround for example.
Other than that: if I understand what's happening in terms of harmonic progression it's much easier for me to memorize it.
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With reference to Scott Henderson, Jonathon Kreisberg made a similar point which is that when you play a lot of project/originals stuff *all the time* and you are touring with a project like that you do tend to forget your other repertoire.
Originally Posted by mrblues
I find this - I am constantly relearning tunes. Though, each time a relearn a tune it gets easier.
Even Jim Mullen - who seems to know a million tunes and plays mostly standards on gigs - has said that he forgets tunes all the time.
The common theme is you have to play tunes a lot, and perform them to retain them.
People who only play standards obviously get a good repertoire of that stuff, but even then they might concentrate on playing maybe 10-20 tunes in heavy rotation that they know inside out.
Anyway the longer you play the more you learn. I probably know a couple of hundred tunes that I could play in a quartet with a sax player, but the number tunes I could play well in a trio with bass and drums or solo is far smaller. And I find that its easy to underestimate how much work goes into mastering a tune.Last edited by christianm77; 06-18-2017 at 06:33 AM.
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It's part of each pedagogy lecture series - recalling is better than repeating. Forget&recall a standard for 10 times is better than to play it for 10 hours straight. Sounds nuts but seems to work in my case at least. Can't trust that method at first because the reward is far away. Forgetting takes some time also.
People have different types of memory. Some can play hundreds of pieces like doing a sight reading from the book in their mind. Some use memory tricks but those really are shortcuts. What absolutely helps is in jazz is to know common progressions real well. So instead thinking through dunno.. I... VI...um.. II.. V, it just becomes a thing by itself. Like word really. But that's common knowledge.
One thing that helps and imo is so essential that the EAR has to know whats going on. The "inner musical ear". So you ain't gonna rely on abstract memory to tell your fingers that "here is the Dm7" now. Instead the ear must be driving - it has to send you the "harmony feel" for the next thing and from this feel, it reminds you of that Dm7. That feel should trigger all other memories whatever types you are using there. One way to get it is to listen those standards but not passively - sing along(maybe scat alone with a backing track) or do a transcription or two. It can take a loo...oong time to get it working well enough but fortunately its not hard at all. Just long. I used my 1.5 hours to work and back to learn a few standards. Surely try this, maybe it's the magic trick you're missing.
So, forget&recall, learn common progressions, scat whenever you're alone and able.
Btw, I'm not too experienced (still a hobbyist) but already can vouch for these suggestions
Last edited by emanresu; 06-18-2017 at 07:49 AM.
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I hardly remember a damn thing. I could probably do Summertime, Autumn Leaves, Sweet Georgia Brown, and stuff like that without thinking but that's about it. There are probably others but they're buried. I probably know more than I think I do.
I know why. If you love a song it sticks, otherwise it's a chore. Mind you, if you're gigging then you'll know them but stop doing them regularly and they fade.
Someone started singing some old sixties songs once and I realised I could drag all the lyrics up without a lot of effort at all. Long term memory, I suppose.
The other thing I can never remember is my own lyrics. I go blank. Might be embarrassment :-)
Also I don't cultivate memory. I improvise a lot and hardly ever repeat myself (as far as I know). I remember the note choices, obviously, but not lines. The brain can always pull something out of the air. Only very occasionally do I stick in a known lick. But it's certainly not good for memory.
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Originally Posted by mrblues
Originally Posted by mrblues
How much time do you spend listening to recordings of the tunes you want?
listening and aural immersion is different from analysis and visual/chart memory. I had a tune I was having a tough time with and the moment I pulled up a YouTube version, listened and heard it as a whole, I said "Ah! Now I get it!"
take the pressure off (cramming for a gig) and listen to a recording. Try to guess the chord movements, guess and play the chords with your guitar and voice, isolate trouble spots and I highly recommend that you find a partner to practice and play with.
All these things tend to pull you out from the mind trap of learning a tune... without your ear.
Practice immersion. Put in the time. Hearing is a skill that can be even more elusive than tune analysis and rote playing. Take it seriously.
Good luck!
DavidLast edited by TH; 06-18-2017 at 02:54 PM.
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I try to listen enough to where I can sing the melody before I even pick up the guitar. Makes the process much quicker, and my retention is better.
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Listen to the song a lot, sing (as mentioned above), break up the song into parts or chunks (which is only about 3 to 4), then put everything together, and play it a LOT. You got to repeat things a lot. There is no other way! "Repetition", wrote famed jazz educator David Baker, "is the mother of all memory".
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I think that OP has fallen to the trap of repetition. If picking up a new piece, then it can be easy to get it to head but its a short term memory. Brain cannot always distinguish what to put to the long term one. The forgetting part should not be something to be frustrated about but it's actually vital to drop the piece for a while and try to recall it back. The 10th time should be almost immediate. I remember so well how I repeated the progression of a piece for hours. And the next day and next months even the piece just had random blanks in it. Plain old repetition is not enough. Ask from classical guitar players what's their worst fear? If they say "memory holes", then ask about their practice routine. I bet most of the practicing is just repeating it for hours and weeks. It's the recall part that builds proper "pipelines" in the brain. I've noticed that people who don't complain about forgetting the pieces so much have been playing with different groups, different setlists all the time. So the recalling is gonna happen a LOT for them and it gets easier on the fly. Originally Posted by smokinguit
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If you learn tunes by ear - even if just the melody and a decent try at the chords - you'll find you retain way more material.
Most people "learn" tunes from charts. Most people can't remember tunes. There is a connection there, ya dig?
To me, learning a tune means I learn the melody by ear and trying to figure out the chords by ear...but I usually need to see a chart to fix my errors in chords. So I'll admit that a chart is often involved, but the key is in GETTING AWAY FROM A CHART AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. That means within about 3 minutes in my case (and I'm a non-pro). I'll google search the chart, take a screen shot with my phone to analyze the progression, and then immediately I'm playing without a chart...only referring to the photo if I am blanking on a chord. Then I transpose that melody and chords through all the keys (on the instrument but also in my head) and apply various exercises to the tune. Then I will try to play it with people in casual jam scenarios. Once I've done all that, I'll tell you...it's pretty hard to forget the tune. Even months or years later. Though tricky passages might trip me up (such as bars 9 - 12 of the second ending on Indian Summer). There are a few tunes I have not learned through all keys (Ceora for example) and it shows...I'm not as solid on recalling that melody.
As someone mentioned above, "recalling" is better for forming the memory than "repeating". This is not about muscle memory, it's about understanding the music and getting it into your ear. Sure, there is some muscle memory that occurs through the repetition, but that's incidental. There are so many ways to play a given melody on the guitar. Try bookending (starting and ending) your practice sessions with a tune you are still working on, and in the middle portion working on other exercises.
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I agree, but lots of repetition MUST be done often at first before you can easily recall a piece after not playing it for a long while or at least most of it. This doesn't mean you have to sit down and play a piece for hours a day like a madman. All you need is roughly 20-30 minutes everyday for a week. Recalling must be done periodically for stronger long term memory. This is provided that you have a decent amount of skill with your instrument and with jazz. Some people might need more repetition than others. It totally depends on the person and how quickly they can memorize pieces. Originally Posted by coolvinny
Last edited by smokinguit; 06-18-2017 at 12:35 PM.
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I'm not saying memory is a problem! It's not. When I have to remember I can, prodigiously. I'm just saying it's very selective. If I don't need it I don't carry it. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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I was commenting on the OP initially but I'm fascinated by the things you've added to this thread ragman1. Originally Posted by ragman1
Yeah this is turning out to be a very interesting thread. I've known some people, not even musicians, who can sing back the most complex lines and even harmonically embellish it, and they're not even trying.
I think I was just fortunate to have been exposed to a lot of music and a piano when I was young. I'd play along with anything I could hear. It was only after many years playing guitar that I realized different people memorize different ways, hear different things, retain different things.
I played with a guy who couldn't memorize changes. He'd memorize them fine, but by some sense of linear changes and letter names. If he got half a bar off, he couldn't tell, except to feel that something wasn't right. He'd know exactly where he was in his own mind, but he didn't know by sound, or listening. He could only play specific tunes he'd have ready for the jam, and on them, he could solo respectably.
I tried to get him to train his ear, but he'd say he didn't have the time for that. He'd spend tons of time listening to recordings, but not with his "identifying ear" engaged. I'd say "Can you believe the passage he just played on that descending passage?" and he'd look at me and say "If you say so. That was pretty great though." but his connection to the tune by ear was different from mine.
Pretty amazing how many ways we hear. For 80% of what I hear, it's variations on the same song. Diatonic harmony has an easily identifiable structure, and the others, once I learn to hear those changes, those new sounds, I could bring that into new tunes.
One thing that really helped me, was composing tunes. Once I started to compose, harmony combinations that took place in ultra slow motion while writing a piece, became absolutely ingrained so I knew them instantly.
But that's just my experience. It was quite a helpful revelation though!
David
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I think it has a lot to do with how good your ear is.
You don't have to think about how to play a 12 bar blues in a new key.
And, there are probably some simple chord cadences that most players can hear on the fly as well as a 12 bar blues.
So, the question is, can you do it with more complicated tunes that you can sing?
And, a related question is can you sing a lot of tunes?
I think learning the lyrics helps.
Beyond that, I think it's being able to hear the song in your mind and have your fingers, almost automatically, go to the right chord, same as for a 12 bar blues. And, when you're all the way there, it won't matter what key you're in.
I think there's an aspect of talent involved, but maybe it's more ear training.
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This may be of help:
Jamey Aebersold Vol. 76 "How to Learn Tunes - A Jazz Musicians's Survival Guide".
jazzbooks.com: Product DetailsLast edited by Flat5; 06-18-2017 at 11:26 PM.
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I memorize everything from jazz standards to classical guitar compositions the same way - visualization mental imagery. Aaron Shearer taught me this approach when I was studying classical guitar with him back in the earlier 70's at Peabody Conservatory Of Music.
At the height of my career as a performing guitarist I new 4 - 5 solid hours worth of solo jazz arrangements and classical guitar pieces that I would play live at restaurants and never miss a note. Aaron's approach works big time - you just have to learn it and apply it.
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I hope you don't take this as anything other than the helpful feedback it's intended to be, but your website looks like it was designed in 1995. Originally Posted by Steven Herron
It kind of feels a bit dodgy... I look at it and think 'hmmm I'm not sure about typing financial details into this site.'
Can I suggest a redesign? It might help sales conversion for you. I think it would be money and/or time well spent and there's plenty of web design tools out there online.
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Hmm...maybe. Everyone is certainly different though and each has their relative strengths and weaknesses. My ear is not great but maybe my visualization is quite good. I tend to gain a good understanding of the melody of tunes based on the intervals. Perhaps my approach is too intellectual and not ear-based enough...hard to say. I think about the intervals while I'm learning, but I don't generally consciously think of them later. When learning, I try to relate the melody notes to the chord-of-the-moment and I find that gives me a robust framework for placing the melody notes. It's largely subconscious I think, and some of it is ear-based even if I don't think it is. With my approach, I can generally visualize how to play a head anywhere on the guitar without my instrument around. Then I pick up the guitar and play it in that new position. These sorts of exercises, in my experience, cut down on the need for repetition. Originally Posted by smokinguit
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I haven't got much more to say but as coolvinny sayd: "Everyone is certainly different though". From that as many have said - rely on your strengths and train the weaknesses.
The function's & key relationship's part seems to be missing from this discussion but I'm not badass enough for this.
I converted this memory trick from somewhere to suit for recalling jazz tunes:
Each key, all those 12 keys, have their own "material". Bamboo, glass, clay, concrete etc. Imagine a strange place where there are buildings for each modulation according to the key. Once imagined (the crazier the better), this is gonna be hard to forget.
I did this for "Four". It goes like that - start in a bamboo raft workshop, run down a concrete dock, paddle under a glass dome, sail by 2 red brick buildings with copper roofs, go back to start on a bamboo bridge.
I don't use it anymore but it's a fun way to remember. The image doesn't die and comes back instantly. The idea for this trick came from people who do the memory sports. The spacial memory is the most reliable as I've heard and they use variations of that to keep a list of 1000+ items in their minds. But yeah, it sure works but in music, that's just a tool to get stuff back when the sheet music is left home. No to "play from it".
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Nice - that reminds me... leading UK jazz guitarist Mike Outram (this guy) Originally Posted by emanresu
Is also really into memory techniques. I think he won some memory championship.
He recommended this book which is fun as an introduction for those new to this world:
Moonwalking with Einstein: The Art and Science of Remembering Everything: Amazon.co.uk: Joshua Foer: 9780141032139: Books
First time I read about this stuff was in Hilary Mantel's great novel Wolf Hall in which she describes the inner world of Thomas Cromwell's 'mind palace' - these techniques have an ancient forgotten history, but used to be very common.
I haven't used these techniques in reference to music, but remembering harmonic 'modules' is important to me, and I find it relatively straightforward. Using outlandish images is a good idea for that.
However I now memorise tunes using transposable formulae - II-V into IV etc, bridge is in bVI key etc - not sure how easy the materials thing would be to transpose?
I'm also reminded of Conrad Cork who wanted to combine the name with a way of remembering the sound from a song. So for example, bVI7 is 'Nowhere' after Out of Nowhere. However I'm not sure how well associative ear training of this type works TBH, I agree with Banacos - it needs to Zen, instant.
Anyway, food for thought.Last edited by christianm77; 06-19-2017 at 06:18 PM.
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Very good insight guys, thank You all!
My only problem is that someone of You said here that I should play harmonies under a melody myself while I am not looking the chart. That way I can play some chords, for sure, but these are not going to be 100% what the songwriter imagined there. Can be subs, etc, and thats why I dont think its the best way, its good for an ear training, but not so good to memorize the form of the original tune.
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Hannibal (1999), which was published ten years before Wolf Hall, also made effective use of 'mind palace' as a writer's device. At the end of the book, author Thomas Harris (who also wrote Silence of the Lambs), acknowledges help from Frances A. Yates's The Art of Memory and Jonathan D. Spence's The Memory Palace of Matteo Ricci. Originally Posted by christianm77
I think there are several levels of analysis, but - personally - I find I get instant benefit from analysing while playing something memorised.
Nothing so complicated as to be frustrating. Just a reasonable level of self-challenge - 'difficult, but possible' keeps it fun.
I believe that's the key to 'flow'/'being in the zone'.
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Hmm I wonder if Mantel actually read that one.
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Agreed. I remembered another thing which is damn important. From those boring pedagogy lectures again - the more stuff you know about a thing, the better you remember it. Its so obvious but weirdly I've forgot to think about it so often. So instead trying to play and remember the standard one way (which almost seems to work most of the time but...) try to do different stuff with it, analyze, learn about it.. It's good to be aware of the lil' facts and details anyway but also will seriously help to access the needed parts of the tune quicker. And I don't even mean just stuff like what function where, or what weird alteration this is. The story behind the standard, the original vs. the one jazzers have messed up, etc. All of that helps a bit. Even lyrics. Originally Posted by destinytot
Last edited by emanresu; 06-23-2017 at 12:34 PM.
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mrblues - I had the same problem. Here's what I've found works for me:
For each new song, every day I sing it all day long, listen to several different recordings of it and play the heck out of it in practice room until I'm sick of living with it. That takes three to four weeks. Then the song moves into the "repertoire" column.
I play through my entire repertoire once a week (usually Thursdays) - no improv, no experiments. Just once through the melody/chord melody then once through the changes. Each song takes two or three minutes and this really helps with longer/complex progressions like Moment's Notice, Ceora and Stablemates.
There's a second tier to my repertoire that includes simpler progressions - often with no bridge - that I revisit only occasionally: Mercy Mercy Mercy, Song for My Father, Watermelon Man and various blues (Straight, No Chaser and Billie's Bounce.) I'd even put Solar and Minority in this category.
By the time my expanding repertoire outstrips my time to practice and my ability to recall, I'm hoping my ear and my acquired knowledge of common progressions will keep me in the game when the leader calls "Wail". And that's the general goal.
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