Context for Misty

[mjo]

Hi folks.
You're likely familiar with the second ending of the A section of Misty: Eb6, Db9, Eb Maj 7.
Over the Db9 chord I'm playing this series of notes: B, Eb, G, Db, B, Bb, Ab before resolving to G ( on the Eb ).
I can't, for the life of me put that sequence into a context that makes sense ..i.e. I'm stuck with only those notes every time I play it.
Any thoughts you have on making sense of this are appreciated.

Thanks
Mike

[matt.guitarteacher]

First of all, spell the B as Cb, and you'll have more context. b7 of Db...

[mjo]

First of all, spell the B as Cb, and you'll have more context. b7 of Db...

Hahahaha ... I used to know that word: enharmonic. Thanks Matt !
It did bring Db dom dim to mind, ( I haven't tried it yet ). That still doesn't cover the Eb note. I can start looking for a couple augmented chords, ( whole tone doesn't do it for me ).
I'm looking for some context to expand on my phrase, but at least I'm not at a total loss any more.

Any other thoughts are welcome

[pubylakeg]

Ab melodic min (or min/maj7) ? Like iv min 7 as a sub for V (or F min7b5)

[lawson-stone]

Think of that Db9 as an Ab minor. Then you have a I IVm I, which is a common enough cadence (plagal? Matt, help me here!).

That should not be so hard to play over. One cheap trick is, for the Eb Major, think G Minor Pentatonic. Play a phrase, then move it up a half step, play the same phrase in Ab Minor Pentatonic, but resolve back to the G Minor Pent. or Eb Major.

[craigoslo]

Hi Mike.

For a Db9 chord in the key og Eb, I would use a Db lydianb7 scale. Db Eb F G Ab Bb Cb.

In context, those notes would be like Eb major scale with a flattened 6 and 7 step (1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7). Eb F G Ab Bb Cb Db

So if you are in the middle of a nice idea over the Eb6 chord, you can carry that idea over the Db9 chord and just adjust those two notes.

Hope that helps.

[lawson-stone]

I'm not a Barry Harris guy, mainly out of ignorance, but anytime now I see things like Db9/Abm6 I start thinking the Barry Harris people probably could dump a ton of light on this. It's a common cadence, but finding a nice way to think about it and play it adds some real spice to "Misty."

I have a little phrase I really like at that point. Here's a clip of a very basic chord-melody take on "Misty," literally a one-take-and-go-with-it clip. The second A section ends about 50 seconds in.

[ColinO]

I'm not a Barry Harris guy, mainly out of ignorance, but anytime now I see things like Db9/Abm6 I start thinking the Barry Harris people probably could dump a ton of light on this. It's a common cadence, but finding a nice way to think about it and play it adds some real spice to "Misty."

I have a little phrase I really like at that point. Here's a clip of a very basic chord-melody take on "Misty," literally a one-take-and-go-with-it clip. The second A section ends about 50 seconds in.

That chord melody was very pretty lawson. I just started digging into the Barry Harris stuff and I might be way off, but Db9 and Bb7 are in the same "family" I think which I take to mean that they can be substituted for one another. Db9 = rootless Bb7 with a #9 and an 11? So Eb6 - Db9 - EbMaj7 is just I - V - I. Playing Abm6 over Db7 is exactly what BH says to do. So that makes sense.

I am interested in what the real BH experts would say.

[goinbaroke]

Very nice, thanks for sharing!!

[Doublea A]

Think of that Db9 as an Ab minor. Then you have a I IVm I, which is a common enough cadence (plagal? Matt, help me here!).

That should not be so hard to play over. One cheap trick is, for the Eb Major, think G Minor Pentatonic. Play a phrase, then move it up a half step, play the same phrase in Ab Minor Pentatonic, but resolve back to the G Minor Pent. or Eb Major.

Yes. I think of that chord as an Ab minor. I like your idea of thinking of the Ebmaj7 like a G minor. The G minor to Ab minor movement opens up all kinds of possibilities !!


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[lawson-stone]

Yes. I think of that chord as an Ab minor. I like your idea of thinking of the Ebmaj7 like a G minor. The G minor to Ab minor movement opens up all kinds of possibilities !!


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It's also a trick I learned from Bruce Forman's book on jazz guitar. One way to make a simple start to playing "outside" is to play a phrase, then offset it a half-step and play the identical phrase again, resolving back to where you started. This is easiest in a little two-measure line over a static chord. It creates a little tension and then resolves. Often, also, the resolution for some reason will be to the 3rd or even the 5th, which is nicer than landing back on the root.

[christianm77]

That chord melody was very pretty lawson. I just started digging into the Barry Harris stuff and I might be way off, but Db9 and Bb7 are in the same "family" I think which I take to mean that they can be substituted for one another. Db9 = rootless Bb7 with a #9 and an 11? So Eb6 - Db9 - EbMaj7 is just I - V - I. Playing Abm6 over Db7 is exactly what BH says to do. So that makes sense.

I am interested in what the real BH experts would say.

Sounds good to me.

Barry teaches that a minor ii-v can be approached like this - in the key of Eb:

Fm7b5 is the top bit of Db9, so we play lines based on the Db dominant (mixolydian etc)

Bb7b9 - we raise the Db in that scale to a D. That gives you a mode of the harmonic minor, but that's not the way we thinking of it - that D is the 3rd of the dominant, Bb7.

The D/Db thing isn't always so cut and dried either. Just look into Parker.....

So yeah the relationship is really important. You see it used throughout jazz of course, in different ways.

So there's a tight relationship there, but I also realised that in many cases we can sub Abm in for Db7 in the same situation, in fact we can play Ab Abm over Fm7 Bb7. And boom if that isn't what you often hear cats doing.

I wouldn't call myself a Barry expert in the slightest, but I have shedded these approaches a LOT.

[christianm77]

Abmaj7 Abm6(maj7) Eb6 all belong to the Eb maj-6 diminished scale - maybe you could come up with some cool alternative chord movements there with the melody using that scale.

[mjo]

! Holy cow .. you guys are outstanding ! Thank you, one and all.
Melodic Minor is something I've stumbled into from time to time, but rarely understood why.

Lawson: that's a great take on the tune. I'll be listening repeatedly, .. I have a tough time with the F7 in the B section.

I could spend some time just studying this post

-best,
Mike

[lawson-stone]

! Holy cow .. you guys are outstanding ! Thank you, one and all.
Melodic Minor is something I've stumbled into from time to time, but rarely understood why.

Lawson: that's a great take on the tune. I'll be listening repeatedly, .. I have a tough time with the F7 in the B section.

I could spend some time just studying this post

-best,
Mike

hey that's very kind. If you want to know anything about what I've done there, feel free to ask. I'm happy to share.

[agentsmith]

Just think of it as a ivmin7 chord as someone else said. Then you can resolve that down a 1/2 step to a gm7 which is simply an ebmaj9 inverted. Ab Melodic minor is actually the proper scale for this chord but the most important thing is getting the sound into your head without being encumbered by a particular set of scale note choices. Later, you can start treating this as specific things like Bb7b9sus for example but to start off with, just learn to hear the most important tone in that chord which is the Cb which wants to transition to the Bb when the Ebmaj7 chord arrives.

Hi Mike.

For a Db9 chord in the key og Eb, I would use a Db lydianb7 scale. Db Eb F G Ab Bb Cb.

In context, those notes would be like Eb major scale with a flattened 6 and 7 step (1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7). Eb F G Ab Bb Cb Db

So if you are in the middle of a nice idea over the Eb6 chord, you can carry that idea over the Db9 chord and just adjust those two notes.

Hope that helps.

[lawson-stone]

! Holy cow .. you guys are outstanding ! Thank you, one and all.
Melodic Minor is something I've stumbled into from time to time, but rarely understood why.

Lawson: that's a great take on the tune. I'll be listening repeatedly, .. I have a tough time with the F7 in the B section.

I could spend some time just studying this post

-best,
Mike

On the F7 if you are playing a chord-melody style, it's easy: You can leave out notes on the 5th and 6th strings since this goes by pretty quickly. For m 22, play Cm9 (d natural on top) then F9 (c natural on top). For m. 23 I use one shape that I move:

x-x-10-11-10-13 followed by x-x-7-8-7-10

If Im feeling naughty I like to play mm. 22-23 with augmented chords:

x-x-10-11-11-10/ x-x-8-9-9-8/ x-x-13-14-14-13/ x-x-10-11-11-10/ x-x-8-9-9-8/

[christianm77]

Db Whole tone scale on Db7 is big and clever.

But what's bigger and cleverer? Same WT on Ab minor - one of Wes's neatest tricks imo.

I used to be a melodic minor on IVm guy and it's a great sound, but since getting into Barry I more usually practice a backdoor dominant with vibe on IVm now. Remember when playing bop we don't need to think about upper structures as written - that's what Barry Harris says and it's what I hear in the bop language.

Scale use is different too right? What's a good scale for bop isn't necessarily a good scale for modern intervallic stuff.

Db7 Db7#11 Abm6 Abm7 Abm(maj7) type sounds are all viable. It's up to you. 'Correct scales' are for jazz college exam papers.

Besides it varies. I've heard Jonathon Kreisberg recommend Eb harmonic major here, which is a scale I tend not to use, but it sounds great and very modern when JK plays it.

Always check out what cats play, not what they say!

[craigoslo]

Scale use is different too right? What's a good scale for bop isn't necessarily a good scale for modern intervallic stuff.

Db7 Db7#11 Abm6 Abm7 Abm(maj7) type sounds are all viable. It's up to you. 'Correct scales' are for jazz college exam papers.

Besides it varies. I've heard Jonathon Kreisberg recommend Eb harmonic major here, which is a scale I tend not to use, but it sounds great and very modern when JK plays it.

Always check out what cats play, not what they say!

I agree. One might use a different scale (or group of notes) for the same chord depending on context.

I like to think in the way Jonathon Kreisberg does in your example above. Relate your Db notes (chord scale) to the key of the song. I would usually use Eb mixolydianb6 (same notes as Db lydian b7) Over the Db9, but I might also stray from this depending on the context.

[Jonah]

I looks like a backdoor move... VIIb7 to I (then addin relative IIm7 before.. as was mentioned above Ab-7)...
So you just treat it as you can treat ii-ve...

Lately I like playing 'V to chord' idea... but not just dominant but the same quality and expand it a bit...

If you have Ab-7 you use Eb-7 (it gives you 9,11 over the Ab-7 and 9,11,13 over Db7).. it's a bit of a cheap trick.. but I like it)

I also got into triadic thing lately...
thinking melodies being composed of triads
(not triads in a classical sense... but triad just as set of three different pitches... mostly it will be triads in 3rds of course though)...

So if you get stuck with melodic ideas you just explore the sound this way... you try to apply G major triad sound Db7 and you get 7,b9 etc. so you get G triad inversion for any application of this over the fretboard and so on...

Really exploring tips is opne thing very necessary... studying harmony also... but hearing the sound is what I am coming to now more and more... I just want to hear certain sound that is it.

and triadic idea is a good tool to organize it a bit...

[christianm77]

Nah not at all a cheap trick, I think the V on minor thing is a great technique that opens doors.

Basically, the way I see it is that you spend time learning to construct lines over dominant, half diminished and major, using the appropriate pitch choices based on CST, chord tones, subs, whatever you use.

You can free yourself up by realising that you can use a line built on one chord type on another chord type if you understand the relationships, for instance:

Cmaj7(#11)-->Am(6)-->D7-->Ab7alt-->F#m7b5

And then apply material in parallel over a chord progression.

[Jonah]

Nah not at all a cheap trick, I think the V on minor thing is a great technique that opens doors.

Basically, the way I see it is that you spend time learning to construct lines over dominant, half diminished and major, using the appropriate pitch choices based on CST, chord tones, subs, whatever you use.

You can free yourself up by realising that you can use a line built on one chord type on another chord type if you understand the relationships, for instance:

Cmaj7(#11)-->Am(6)-->D7-->Ab7alt-->F#m7b5

And then apply material in parallel over a chord progressi

Well yes I do it all the time... I even play the complete changes of V.. like playing Gmaj7-Em7-Am7-D7 over Cmaj7-Am7-Dm7-G7
Then I applied extentions of D7 to G7 etc.

It's a tool...

But I think it's impotant to know what you're doing... that's why called it a bit cheap trick...

You see I always know the notes I play (or almost know - depends on speed)))- so why would not I just play the notes I want? Why do I need this trick?
When I use this kind of thing I feel like I decieve myself... (it concerns only me of course... not others)

One important note:
THe most crucial point in this approach is different tension/release logics you have...
THinking I-vi-ii-v in G over i-vi-ii-v in C will make some unexpected accents

Also it affects phrasing if you think Em7 over Am7, or if you think just 9 and 11 oextensions of Am7.. or if you think G triad over Am triad... it will affect phrasing.
Then next level - if you think these chords as scales options, or treat them through chord tones... it will also affect phrasing...

After all even shape-ish thing affects pharing... you think Em7 over Am7 - however free you are you will tend to use Em7-ish licks, pharses, patterns - just unconciously




That's why I mentioned this triadic thing (again I do not mean classical triads) - it seems that it serves better now for me.. it has some organizational concept in it that I can more or less control... and at the same time it liberates me in a way I want to have..
I feel like I am on the ground but more or less all the directions are open (even down and up)))

Though I think it may be too loose to explain... depends much in individual experience.
because I am not sure I would have handled this approach if did not have the background with plenty of other approaches...

[christianm77]

Well yes I do it all the time... I even play the complete changes of V.. like playing Gmaj7-Em7-Am7-D7 over Cmaj7-Am7-Dm7-G7
Then I applied extentions of D7 to G7 etc.

It's a tool...

But I think it's impotant to know what you're doing... that's why called it a bit cheap trick...

Knowing what you are doing is fine for the practice room but it can be an awful burden in performance.

You see I always know the notes I play (or almost know - depends on speed)))- so why would not I just play the notes I want? Why do I need this trick?
When I use this kind of thing I feel like I decieve myself... (it concerns only me of course... not others)

I know exactly what you mean actually! At first it feels weirdly dishonest.

But actually what you are doing is busting through walls between bits of knowledge - and developing ways to apply everything over everything. This can be practiced as consistently and as scientifically as anything else.

One important note:
THe most crucial point in this approach is different tension/release logics you have...
THinking I-vi-ii-v in G over i-vi-ii-v in C will make some unexpected accents

Also it affects phrasing if you think Em7 over Am7, or if you think just 9 and 11 oextensions of Am7.. or if you think G triad over Am triad... it will affect phrasing.
Then next level - if you think these chords as scales options, or treat them through chord tones... it will also affect phrasing...

After all even shape-ish thing affects pharing... you think Em7 over Am7 - however free you are you will tend to use Em7-ish licks, pharses, patterns - just unconciously

Lol, people find all sorts of things to worry about don't they?

TBH when I listen back to my playing after a while, I can't really hear that stuff, I just hear lines. Do you think you could detect that it someone else's playing?

[jordanklemons]

Hi folks.
You're likely familiar with the second ending of the A section of Misty: Eb6, Db9, Eb Maj 7.
Over the Db9 chord I'm playing this series of notes: B, Eb, G, Db, B, Bb, Ab before resolving to G ( on the Eb ).
I can't, for the life of me put that sequence into a context that makes sense ..i.e. I'm stuck with only those notes every time I play it.
Any thoughts you have on making sense of this are appreciated.

Thanks
Mike

Hey Mike, so yeah I would definitely agree with just about everything said so far re melodic minor and such.

Just wanted to chime in briefly to offer a slightly different perspective. I don't really utilize scales in the traditional sense... I tend to conceptualize and create my melodies based on triads with other notes peppered in... almost like ornaments hanging from a christmas tree or paintings and photographs hung from a wall. The substructure is there and holds everything up, and then the extra stuff can be moved around at will.

One of my go to triads to use over a dominant 7 chord (the #11 kind that's playing off of the 4th mode of melodic minor - like a Db7 where Ab melodic minor is the scale of choice) is the triad built on the 2nd. So against a Db7 I would think Eb major triad. My first go-to "tension" notes that I would add to help create melodic momentum would be the 2nd and the b6 of the Eb triad. Those two notes plus the Eb major triad give us a pentatonic scale that works perfectly over this tonality:

Eb - F - G - Bb - Cb

The bold note will behave as melodic tension points that will want to gravitate back towards the triad notes. All 5 of these notes can be found within the mel minor scale, so there's nothing new here... just a different perspective with a pretty specific intention of one way to organize the movement of notes over this particular dominant chord.

I'm not 100% sure which direction you're moving through the melody notes you wrote above, but when I play them I hear this same triad at work. What my ear is hearing is that the B note you're starting on is a melodic tension that wants (and eventually gets... delayed) a resolution down to the Bb. After you play the B natural (which acts as the b6 against this melodic triad) you play the 1 and 3 of this same Eb triad. If you simply resolved it down a half step here, it would be easier to hear the B as the melodic tension I'm talking about wanting to move down. But instead, you jump up to the Db, then walk down hitting the B again and finally resolving to the Bb. All of this is happening inside the Ab mel minor scale... and it may sound odd since I'm talking about utilizing the root and the b7 of this chord as melodic tension notes and using the 13 as a resolution point, but if you take it out of the Db7 context and try it with JUST the Eb triad like I'm saying, I think you'll hear what I'm talking about. I don't like to make assumptions, but it seems like your ear might be hearing this upper structure triad already if you naturally like this sound and keep coming back to it. There's nothing wrong with that. I think it's great. My personal advice would be not to change anything up. Just sit with that sound for a while. See if you can visualize that Eb triad over your Db7 shape and mess around with that for a while. Try some adding different Db7 notes against that triad to get a feel for the type of tension they create and how they want to voice lead back to the triad. Try it in a few different positions, octaves, and keys.

As for the last couple notes... again, it's just an Ab note behaving as a tension resolving to a G note as a stable, anchor note.

So, yeah, agreeing with everyone regarding the diatonic analysis. Just adding in how I hear this, and possibly why you're digging it.

Here's a few voicings that integrate that triad into the top voices so you can hear what's going on harmonically (I'd mess with these against a low Db looped pedal to get an idea of how these would sound when playing with a bass player)...

Eb major triad shown in parenthesis
X2(534)X
X2X(343)
XX9(886)
XX9(12.11.11)

***Once you play with these voicings, maybe try strumming one and then playing the riff you have while that sound is still in your ear. See if you can hear how the harmonic and melodic applications of this triad yield practically the same tonality and energy.

[Jonah]

Knowing what you are doing is fine for the practice room but it can be an awful burden in performance.

when I say it please do not take it too litterally)