I prefer Minor Jazz Blues over Major Jazz Blues

[Jkniff26]

You guys do a great job of answering difficult and sometimes not quite defined questions. What makes something blues? Is it form? Is it tonality? Is it feel? Is it cultural? Can it rock? Can it jazz? Can it country? Whoa those are bigger questions than I will ever understand, but I do love the blues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mr. beaumont]

You guys do a great job of answering difficult and sometimes not quite defined questions. What makes something blues? Is it form? Is it tonality? Is it feel? Is it cultural? Can it rock? Can it jazz? Can it country? Whoa those are bigger questions than I will ever understand, but I do love the blues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cool Kid Answer:

"If you have to ask, you'll never know."

OR

"I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I hear it!"

QUASI-ANALYTICAL ANSWER

I suppose when I hear "blues" in a jazz sense, I'm thinking it can be one of 4 things:

1. A "dominant" blues (though I'd never call it that, I think of this one as just "blues.") It's a 12 bar form. with the IV in bar V and a turnaround. A basic jazz blues might have a diminished in bar 6, and the V in the turnaround will be preceded by ii. There's a million and one ways to chord sub on it, keep it simple if you're jamming and if you want to do something more complex, TALK ABOUT IT FIRST!!!

2. A minor blues. Still a 12 bar form, "i" is minor, goes dominant in bar 4 pulling to the iv chord. Turnaround will often be V7 preceded by #V7.

3. "Parker" blues. Confirmation. Freight Trane. I chord is major, so is IV. If there's a minor ii V that starts in bar 2, probably a Parker blues.

4. Specific form blues: These are tunes you can't just "jam on" if you don't actually know them. They're all over the map. Royal Garden...All Blues or Freddie...Footprints...Pork Pie Hat (although that one goes more standard minor blues for the blowing)

[christianm77]

Tishomingo blues is a funny one

[docbop]

Cool Kid Answer:

"If you have to ask, you'll never know."

Reading the about the Jazz legends that's pretty much the answer they gave to almost everyone, to them it was all about your ears. One of my favorite stories is Monk who was really bad about not answering question even to band members had some guy hounding him to answer a question. Monk final had it walks over to the piano hit two chords and says "there's the answer". Then Monk walked out.

[christianm77]

Yeah, you know people ask questions and try to break down things to a degree that's unhelpful.

Listen to music, and then play. Learn to hear and play phrases rather than just scales, arpeggios and patterns and when you do practice those things, practice them as music and build them into musical phrases.

Don't get hung up on theory or harmony to the extent that you are looking for permission to play things, because that's not how actual jazz musicians think and often they play much faster and looser with the rules than you'd think even if they have some elaborate theory to justify it lol.

Or you can thumb your nose at the rules like Monk.

Of course practice can be super strict (say seventh chords through then tune, perpetual scale, learning to sing a Parker solo, whatever) but that's just prep for going 'bluuuuhh' and letting music come out when playing.

Blues is just blues. You can always use the blues tonality or you play changes and bebop language, or go modal, free or something elsewhere. Up to you really, so long as it feels right to you and swings in one way or another and you know where you are in the form.

Same is true of major, minor, Swedish blues, Norwegian blues, whatever variations.... just be careful about major on minor! (The other way is fine.)

Mind you that's true of any tune.

(Elephant in the room as always is that if your playing is rhythmically cool, you can get away with harmonic murder.)

[fasstrack]

Let's see if I can put this in words. For me, there is a smoke air to Minor Jazz Blues tonalities that Major tonalities just don't have.

It was after coming to this forum that I realized that I like my Blues (whether Jazz Blues or Traditional Blues) with some minor thirds, minor sevenths, and with that "Blue Note" in their somewhere - whether it be the b5 on the minor pentatonic or the b3 on the Major Pentatonic).

Happy Blues lacks the drama that I seek.

This is a personal preference, but do you kind of feel the same way?

I always wanted to write a blues with major 7th chords. I tried the first time with Blues in the Glen, a forgettable first try. I succeeded more, I think, with Shelter, a 12-bar major blues in 6/4 (the last 4 bars are 13th chords).

Here is my lyric:

C Maj7 C Maj 7th #5
Shelter---away from the storm, to

C6
Shelter---where

G Min 7th C7
I'm safe and warm---and

F Maj 7th F Min 7th Bb7 sus Bb7
Rested---oh lord lead the way to

C2 Bb2 Ab Bb C
Shelter---hear me

G13 F13
Pray for the way to my

C Min7 F 7 D Min Db/G
Shelter Shelter

Weary---so much on my mind, I'm
Weary, will I never find---that
One place where I can lie down in
Shelter

Hear me pray for the way---to my
Shelter----shelter

(solos)

Found it--I found it at last--now
Worries are all in the past---I
Thank God---for hearing my prayer for
Shelter

Blessed night---future's bright---in my
(vamp: C min F 7 D Min 7 Db/G
Shelter--- shelter (etc.)

(Last chord at ritard: A2)

Shelter (c) Joel Fass 2009

(Can be heard at Smalls Jazz Club - SmallsLIVE Jan. 27th, 2017 (sung by Marcelino Feliciano and Elaina, with Tardo Hammer, piano, Tim Givens, bass, John Eckert, trumpet, Evan Spencer (I THINK), drums, the composer on a (cracked) Martin D something-or-other, amplified---I forget which set).


I think Stevie Wonder did an amazing thing in If It's Magic (In E): the bridge goes to A minor, a chromatic bass line which resolves not to E7th, but E Maj 7th---and sounds completely natural. That's why he's a giant.

Other interesting minor blues situations: Benny Carter's Serves Me Right; Comin' Home (Horace Silver?); (I THINK) Frog Legs (Joe Zawinul).

Zawinul also wrote an interesting sort of major blues with a little early 'modal' vamp for Cannonball: Scotch and Water...

[AlsoRan]

Joel,

I am betting your song sounds pretty nice, based on your work that I sampled. It would be nice to hear that one day when you get a chance and if you have the desire to post it. Of course, you don't want to be giving away too much of your work.

On the subject of Major Blues songs, I can appreciate them and I think of artists such as Herb Ellis. But I love that almost dangerous, nefarious vibe that mid-tempo Minor Jazz Blues can have. For me, those songs let you know "something is about to go down," and whatever its going to be, its going to be done with no thought of tomorrow.

I think my mind associates it with various movies that had dim lights, smoke, and men in suits with hats - those kind of film noir type movies.

[fasstrack]

Joel,

I am betting your song sounds pretty nice, based on your work that I sampled. It would be nice to hear that one day when you get a chance and if you have the desire to post it. Of course, you don't want to be giving away too much of your work.

On the subject of Major Blues songs, I can appreciate them and I think of artists such as Herb Ellis. But I love that almost dangerous, nefarious vibe that mid-tempo Minor Jazz Blues can have. For me, those songs let you know "something is about to go down," and whatever its going to be, its going to be done with no thought of tomorrow.

I think my mind associates it with various movies that had dim lights, smoke, and men in suits with hats - those kind of film noir type movies.

I think a lot of it is conditioning: Minor=sad; Major=happy. It would be good to get outta that mindset and experiment. You can take yourself and your listeners new places that way.

Beware of conditioning and routine, I say. It can be a definite trap...

[fasstrack]

Joel,

I am betting your song sounds pretty nice, based on your work that I sampled. It would be nice to hear that one day when you get a chance and if you have the desire to post it. Of course, you don't want to be giving away too much of your work.

On the subject of Major Blues songs, I can appreciate them and I think of artists such as Herb Ellis. But I love that almost dangerous, nefarious vibe that mid-tempo Minor Jazz Blues can have. For me, those songs let you know "something is about to go down," and whatever its going to be, its going to be done with no thought of tomorrow.

I think my mind associates it with various movies that had dim lights, smoke, and men in suits with hats - those kind of film noir type movies.

I keep trying to upload it and it DOESN'T WORK!! Aargh, I HATE this schlitz! How do I do this?

I have 2 versions: one on my solo CD (overdubbed) and one in an unfinished project with Sheryl Bailey. I won't use the latter w/o her permission...

[fasstrack]

I copied into Google Chrome and get a message saying it's an 'invalid file type'.

WTF? Can anyone help me? Geez, do I hate computers...

[Robertkoa]

Check out changes to Charlie Parker's Confirmation that's what I would call a Major Blues.

Don't forget just because the chords are major your pitch collection doesn't have to be too.

Yeah- funny that Guitar Players are always playing Donna Lee when Confirmation seems like it would sound much better on Guitar ?
Or am I missing something ?

Also on Major Blues where you use a Major 7 Voicing alternating to a bVIIM7 - possibly repeating the same thing on the IV section - it kind of makes it
like Dominant Blues in 'feel' but with Happier M7ths...

Oh yeah ' Confirmation' - some amazing playing from
Mr. Parker- his Playing seems way ahead of his Time on this doesn't it - even for a Jazz Genius ?

[christianm77]

Confirmation has more twiddles tho. Also that B section, tricky double time phrasing and also pretty fast.

Also rhythmically Donna Lee is pretty straight and Confirmation is rhythmically more interesting and we all know how guitarists find that kind of thing. You can alternate pick Donna Lee and it will sound OK and they all seem to like to do for some reason. Just try that with Confirmation lol.

A very good example of a blues with a major seventh at the start is the A section of Wave, although that's what the Real Book says and I'm sure the actual Brazilians play something much cooler.

[Stevebol]

I don't hear a lot of blues as either minor or major. It's a different interpretation of minor and major. Some of saddest blues is when the singer can sing a clear major 3rd against a major chord. It's not easy to do. BB King did that a lot. Tracy Chapman does it repeatedly here;

'Jazz blues' seems to be specific to jazz.

[fasstrack]

Is ANYONE gonna explain how to successfully post a sound file?

Thank you in advance...

[AlsoRan]

Is ANYONE gonna explain how to successfully post a sound file?

Thank you in advance...

There are so many factors that go into uploading files. I used to be good at it but as with so many things, I am getting rusty.

First, the file needs to fit a certain format. I only know of mp3 and .wav files.

Next, comes understanding what the site you are posting on requires. With Soundcloud, I did not have too much trouble, but I have not posted on Youtube in years.

Let us know what step you are at and what site you are posting to as a start, Amigo.

[fasstrack]

There are so many factors that go into uploading files. I used to be good at it but as with so many things, I am getting rusty.

First, the file needs to fit a certain format. I only know of mp3 and .wav files.

Next, comes understanding what the site you are posting on requires. With Soundcloud, I did not have too much trouble, but I have not posted on Youtube in years.

Let us know what step you are at and what site you are posting to as a start, Amigo.

Trying to post HERE, and they are mp3s...

[TOMMO]

Just post the link:

SoundClick player

[ragman1]

That's funny, I've just written a major blues... but you can't have it yet :-)

[Robertkoa]

I don't hear a lot of blues as either minor or major. It's a different interpretation of minor and major. Some of saddest blues is when the singer can sing a clear major 3rd against a major chord. It's not easy to do. BB King did that a lot. Tracy Chapman does it repeatedly here;

'Jazz blues' seems to be specific to jazz.

This is true for me - as a Writer - when I 'harmonically expand Blues' - it sounds like Jazz - whether I try to make it so or not - and of course the reason I am on this Forum is to learn to Harmonically Expand everything - If I want to- which experienced Jazzers can do almost at will and a skill they themselves almost take for granted.

I am interested in Composition but the skill set is similar....and some things are just 'hearing ' the next chord or creativity ...but I am talking here about Modulating etc..

Seems like even in Jazz - Blues that actually changes Key then returns to the Home Key is fairly rare - right ?

To be clear here I am talking about a Blues that starts in FMajor ( for example ) and does two complete ' Cycles' in FMajor THEN bye bye FMajor to say ( for example ) EbMinor with a complete Cycle or Section in EbMinor - not a temporary Tonic ...

So you would have a completely established New Tonal Center of Gravity with it's own ii- iv- V etc. that Soloists would have to deal with which would ( hopefully - lol) brilliantly return eventually to the Home Key - FMajor .

-In Modern Music - the idea of a Key is kind of blurred anyway but I think the Original Concept of a Key is despite Secondary Dominants or Secondary ii- Vs etc. which have their own Temporary Tonic Note(s) to an Improviser or even a Singer etc.the main Note which everything eventually flows toward is the Tonic Note of the Home Key...

Then the secondary Main Note would be the Tonic Note of the full Modulation to a New Key.

Then the tertiary Main Notes would be the Temporary Tonic Root or Chord of the Moment Root.


And then whether Rock , Jazz, Blues , Pop you would have to add chord Tones and extensions to the above of course whether Improvising or Writing a Melody....

Obviously - hearing it and playing it is one of the best ways- but my 'mind' is clever enough to feed me Notes to play over the above ...which I can't always find instantly ( best Practice for Improv in some ways).

BUT - not clever enough to feed me brilliant or clever
or cool Modulations in Composition- so the Theory part and Musical Architecture comes into play..
otherwise I wouldn't need Theory and my own view of it...


Back to the Thread- I agree it is easier to Play 'sad Blues' and of course so much Rock Music came from blurring the distinction between Major and Minor ..and playing Blues licks over everything ..lol.

But for the Listener/ Audience ( we often forget them don't we....oops ) the idea of ' feel good ' or Happy Blues is a cool idea.

Ragtime was like that - now that I think of it and a lot of New Orleans stuff was Happy Blues- a cool idea for the Audience- we often forget about them.

[ragman1]

I agree it is easier to Play 'sad Blues'

Quite, I think that's actually the reason, simple as that. But I don't see anything wrong with it, that's the other point.

[Stevebol]

This is true for me - as a Writer - when I 'harmonically expand Blues' - it sounds like Jazz - whether I try to make it so or not - and of course the reason I am on this Forum is to learn to Harmonically Expand everything - If I want to- which experienced Jazzers can do almost at will and a skill they themselves almost take for granted.

I am interested in Composition but the skill set is similar....and some things are just 'hearing ' the next chord or creativity ...but I am talking here about Modulating etc..

Seems like even in Jazz - Blues that actually changes Key then returns to the Home Key is fairly rare - right ?

To be clear here I am talking about a Blues that starts in FMajor ( for example ) and does two complete ' Cycles' in FMajor THEN bye bye FMajor to say ( for example ) EbMinor with a complete Cycle or Section in EbMinor - not a temporary Tonic ...

So you would have a completely established New Tonal Center of Gravity with it's own ii- iv- V etc. that Soloists would have to deal with which would ( hopefully - lol) brilliantly return eventually to the Home Key - FMajor .

-In Modern Music - the idea of a Key is kind of blurred anyway but I think the Original Concept of a Key is despite Secondary Dominants or Secondary ii- Vs etc. which have their own Temporary Tonic Note(s) to an Improviser or even a Singer etc.the main Note which everything eventually flows toward is the Tonic Note of the Home Key...

Then the secondary Main Note would be the Tonic Note of the full Modulation to a New Key.

Then the tertiary Main Notes would be the Temporary Tonic Root or Chord of the Moment Root.


And then whether Rock , Jazz, Blues , Pop you would have to add chord Tones and extensions to the above of course whether Improvising or Writing a Melody....

Obviously - hearing it and playing it is one of the best ways- but my 'mind' is clever enough to feed me Notes to play over the above ...which I can't always find instantly ( best Practice for Improv in some ways).

BUT - not clever enough to feed me brilliant or clever
or cool Modulations in Composition- so the Theory part and Musical Architecture comes into play..
otherwise I wouldn't need Theory and my own view of it...


Back to the Thread- I agree it is easier to Play 'sad Blues' and of course so much Rock Music came from blurring the distinction between Major and Minor ..and playing Blues licks over everything ..lol.

But for the Listener/ Audience ( we often forget them don't we....oops ) the idea of ' feel good ' or Happy Blues is a cool idea.

Ragtime was like that - now that I think of it and a lot of New Orleans stuff was Happy Blues- a cool idea for the Audience- we often forget about them.

'Jazz blues' is over my head. I could do some of it but i don't understand the definition. I go by the old blues motto- if something is working for you, wear it out. Style is just repetition and I try to have style in everything.
For example, I don't understand 'Confirmation' as a blues. 'Now's the Time', yes. I think of jazz blues as something that doesn't get too tricky harmonically on the I and IV chords but that's wrong.
Jazz blues is unique. I doubt jazz musicians make a fuss about micro-tonal considerations.

[mr. beaumont]

'Jazz blues' is over my head. I could do some of it but i don't understand the definition. I go by the old blues motto- if something is working for you, wear it out. Style is just repetition and I try to have style in everything.
For example, I don't understand 'Confirmation' as a blues. 'Now's the Time', yes. I think of jazz blues as something that doesn't get too tricky harmonically on the I and IV chords but that's wrong.
Jazz blues is unique. I doubt jazz musicians make a fuss about micro-tonal considerations.

Confirmation's tricky, I mean, it's an 8 bar blues, with a bridge, played AABA. I can see how that's tough to hear as a blues.

But a Parker blues in 12 bar form, like Freight Trane...play some good ol blues licks on that form. Maybe they don't highlight all the fun stuff in the harmony, but they work...

[Stevebol]

Confirmation's tricky, I mean, it's an 8 bar blues, with a bridge, played AABA. I can see how that's tough to hear as a blues.

But a Parker blues in 12 bar form, like Freight Trane...play some good ol blues licks on that form. Maybe they don't highlight all the fun stuff in the harmony, but they work...

just listened to Kenny Burell/Coltrane on Freight Trane. I get that. Sounds like happy blues. I don't get Confirmation. It sounds too random.

[gggomez]

Love the blues. Minor lines sound even tastier if preceded by major lines.

Love tracks that go outside the 12 bar regime. Goodbye Pork Pie Hat, Moanin, Driftin, Round Midnight all sound like blues to my simple ears.

Major v dominant - Isn't Louis Armstrongs intro to St James Infirmary major and minor 7ths? love it together that combination is seriously blue.

Didn't Robert Johnson use quite a bit of diminished lines.

My ears cannot tire of such magic so many colours and possibilities.

Would love to hear fasttrack's blues.

Great thread




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[christianm77]

Diminished? What about Red House?