St Thomas questions

[morroben]

Hey folks, I'm taking lessons and we're going to add this song to our list, but I'm trying to get the basics figured out ahead of next weeks lesson.
I usually try to do an analysis for these tunes. Should I look at this as basically sections of C major and D minor with some passing chords?
Also, when trying to play the chords, on bars 13 and 14, the C7 C9/E, F6 F#dim7 just doesn't sound right to me at all. I don't know if I'm playing it wrong or hearing it wrong...or if this lead sheet just doesn't sync up to any of the versions I've ever heard. Unlike some of the other songs we've worked on, I've actually listened to this song a lot over the years, so I feel like I know what it should sound like. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Any advice would be much appreciated.

[Doublea A]

Hey folks, I'm taking lessons and we're going to add this song to our list, but I'm trying to get the basics figured out ahead of next weeks lesson.
I usually try to do an analysis for these tunes. Should I look at this as basically sections of C major and D minor with some passing chords?
Also, when trying to play the chords, on bars 13 and 14, the C7 C9/E, F6 F#dim7 just doesn't sound right to me at all. I don't know if I'm playing it wrong or hearing it wrong...or if this lead sheet just doesn't sync up to any of the versions I've ever heard. Unlike some of the other songs we've worked on, I've actually listened to this song a lot over the years, so I feel like I know what it should sound like. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Any advice would be much appreciated.

The A section is in C. But the B section is 2 bars of D minor (unresolved) 2 bars of C (unresolved). The last 4 bars is C to F to G to C. Bars 13 and 14 should be C to C7, F to F#dim7 resolving to G/D. You can think of that F#dim7 like a D7(b9). See if that helps.


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[christianm77]

This is bog standard stuff dude. Traditional jazz chord changes that would have been familiar to someone from 1923

1-6-2-5
Slow 1-6-2-5
1-4-1
1-6-2-5

Anything else such as the F#o7 or Bb7 is simply a passing chord

[christianm77]

Specifically the C C7/E F F#o7 thing is classic Dixie. If you can't hear it, see of you can spot the same move in different tunes. On iPhone ATM so can't oblige with a list but anyone else?

In this tune it's pretty fast - mostly it's a bass line thing - start listening out and you will here this thing 1-3-4-#4-5 all over the place

the guitar is not obligated to comp every single chord and in fact that sort of thing can be annoying to the soloist.

I often use what I think of as the Parker simplification which is to play C7 F7 C7

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah, just play the roots to start, you'll hear it.

[mr. beaumont]

As for soloing, it moves fast...C major, to A7alt, back to C, I'll often go C blues on that turnaround.

[christianm77]

I haven't tried A7alt. I would normally say B7alt (tritone) although it's rare I play this.

More often for me:

Play F mixolydian or dominant, raise F to F# Barry style. Then resolve to C. A slightly decorated version of just C-F7-C

Scale wise that's a mode G harmonic minor.... Sounds better with the F# thing though, and easier to do.

Perhaps the most idiomatic solution is to play c blues on it. It's what Parker would have done (well sometimes)

[mr. beaumont]

Oh, I was talking the whole form of the tune, not just the turn.

So basically, first 8 bars I think "C" and pick and choose chords to highlight.

Bars 9/10 are an A altered dominant area, so play anything related to that, 11/12 are back to C (can play Dm, any G dominant stuff, whatever) and then the last 4 bars are the turn--and yeah, C blues is my go to...I'll often play a lot of C''s there, maybe even an octave, because I've listened so much to Jim Hall playing this

[henryrobinett]

I've always played it - C - F7 - Em7 - A7 - Dm7 - G7 C. Then the B section Eø7 - (Bb7) A7 Dm7 Ab7 G7 C C/E F F#º Dm7 G7 C etc

[morroben]

Thanks for the help guys! It's nice to be able to get this kind of help/advice between lessons. I really like this tune. It's fun to play along with recordings or backing tracks, though I'm struggling a little bit when trying to play rhythm by myself with a metronome. I'll get it.

This is bog standard stuff dude. Traditional jazz chord changes that would have been familiar to someone from 1923

1-6-2-5
Slow 1-6-2-5
1-4-1
1-6-2-5

Anything else such as the F#o7 or Bb7 is simply a passing chord

Wouldn't it be 1-3-2-5? C-E-D-G? Or are 3 and 6 interchangeable in this scenario?

[henryrobinett]

There are some tunes like this and Autumn Leaves, that are very deceptively simple. You can play this song, like AL, and avoid all the changes and still ear it pretty well. Which is why they're chosen as beginning songs. But there are very detailed ways of playing them. Even with Rollins who implies other changes without necessarily playing them all the time. And the changes I play are perhaps a little too detailed. They force you to play and dig in with more detail so you must pay attention, more than playing C on all the A sections.

Like Rhythm Changes. I play relatively complex changes. I hear them like that. But there are folks who just play Bb on the A sections and ear the rest.

[keith]

Just my 2 cents on this.

I tend to play it similar to Henry's progression but overall it is just the 1-6-2-5-1 with vi chord being VI7, but as you mentioned in C.

I don't see the B section in D minor as it's all diatonic to C except for the false dominant A7. I play it similar again to Henry ( the E half diminished representing a C ( C9 actually )) with D- to G7.

The turnaround I tend to minor-ize 7 the F instead of the F7b9 ( either works ) but the point here is getting back to the C-G7-C.

So now to address your question; realize that all the changes in the A section are just representing / C // G7 / C /. If you strum it with a calypso feel you'll hear it. So soloing you can just C major it with a bar of G dominant of some form back to the C. The B section is akin to going C major to a C dominant ( the A7 akin to C7 ) then F to G then with the turnaround to finish it. Now I'm not suggesting you play it like that but if you're just starting and looking to simplify C-F-G is really all it is in my mind. It's how you represent those chords that adds the interest.

I think the reason it doesn't quite sound right for you may be the feel of the ii-V7-I. It may be written as 2 beats each but it's played akin to the melody rhythm of the last 4 notes resolving back to the C before the one ( downbeat ) of the next bar.

Hope that helps

[christianm77]

Thanks for the help guys! It's nice to be able to get this kind of help/advice between lessons. I really like this tune. It's fun to play along with recordings or backing tracks, though I'm struggling a little bit when trying to play rhythm by myself with a metronome. I'll get it.



Wouldn't it be 1-3-2-5? C-E-D-G? Or are 3 and 6 interchangeable in this scenario?

Sorry

1-3-6-2-5-1

Then

3-6-2-5

Soloing wise 3 and 1 fairly interchangeable.

[christianm77]

I've always played it - C - F7 - Em7 - A7 - Dm7 - G7 C. Then the B section Eø7 - (Bb7) A7 Dm7 Ab7 G7 C C/E F F#º Dm7 G7 C etc

I don't think I've played the F7. Always a nice chord to add into a 1-6-2-5-1

[christianm77]

There are some tunes like this and Autumn Leaves, that are very deceptively simple. You can play this song, like AL, and avoid all the changes and still ear it pretty well. Which is why they're chosen as beginning songs. But there are very detailed ways of playing them. Even with Rollins who implies other changes without necessarily playing them all the time. And the changes I play are perhaps a little too detailed. They force you to play and dig in with more detail so you must pay attention, more than playing C on all the A sections.

Like Rhythm Changes. I play relatively complex changes. I hear them like that. But there are folks who just play Bb on the A sections and ear the rest.

I like to move back and forward between levels of detail (I would like to have greater fluency at this actually) - too much detail all the time can be wearing but a little cluster of complexity here and there can draw the ear.

St Thomas sits in the 'turnaround tunes' category along with rhythm changes.... there's a lot you can do.

But then like you say you can also use just the key (C)

OTOH the reverse also works - take a chord that sits there and turn into movement by using a turnaround. Bye bye blackbird is a good example

[morroben]

Sorry

1-3-6-2-5-1

Then

3-6-2-5

Soloing wise 3 and 1 fairly interchangeable.

Oh...I see. I wasn't looking at the A7 as the 6. Since it's a dominant 7 chord, I thought it was the 5 of 2. So I thought I should lump those together and think D minor. That's what I was thinking when I said sections of C major and D minor. Your way makes more sense.

[henryrobinett]

I like to move back and forward between levels of detail (I would like to have greater fluency at this actually) - too much detail all the time can be wearing but a little cluster of complexity here and there can draw the ear.

St Thomas sits in the 'turnaround tunes' category along with rhythm changes.... there's a lot you can do.

But then like you say you can also use just the key (C)

OTOH the reverse also works - take a chord that sits there and turn into movement by using a turnaround. Bye bye blackbird is a good example

Yes. Bye Bye Blackbird is another good example. I don't play it hanging on the tonic (F). I love the color of changes when soloing.


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[mr. beaumont]

Right, you have that string of chords in the A section...C is home base, I suppose, but you can highlight any of them as you go, hang on em to create a little tension, etc.

Fun tune.

[christianm77]

Oh, I was talking the whole form of the tune, not just the turn.

So basically, first 8 bars I think "C" and pick and choose chords to highlight.

Bars 9/10 are an A altered dominant area, so play anything related to that, 11/12 are back to C (can play Dm, any G dominant stuff, whatever) and then the last 4 bars are the turn--and yeah, C blues is my go to...I'll often play a lot of C''s there, maybe even an octave, because I've listened so much to Jim Hall playing this

I have trouble hearing the altered scale on chord VI actually... That b5 on that chord...

[mr. beaumont]

Altered chord, not altered scale. I like a b9 and raised 5th there (b13, I guess)

[christianm77]

Altered chord, not altered scale. I like a b9 and raised 5th there (b13, I guess)

Yeah me too

[DonEsteban]

I'm lazy:

||:em7 | ./. |dm7 | em7 :||
| em7 | A7 | dm7| G7 |

and for the last line one or the other typical ascending (or even descending) turn around line here, there are loads of out there, just pick one or two :-)

Edit: just realized: third line mostly chromatic descending (subs)... I said, I'm lazy :-)

[goldenwave77]

I thought I read somewhere that "St. Thomas" is based on some English folk song about poachers, or something of that like...something that Sonny Rollins' mother was always singing around the house in the Caribbean before they moved to New York City.

Maybe Christian knows the answer to this?!

[christianm77]

I thought I read somewhere that "St. Thomas" is based on some English folk song about poachers, or something of that like...something that Sonny Rollins' mother was always singing around the house in the Caribbean before they moved to New York City.

Maybe Christian knows the answer to this?!

Could be - I thought it was from Trinidad*, but maybe English before.

St James Infirmary is an old English song apparently.

*I actually have no idea

[grahambop]

Could be - I thought it was from Trinidad*, but maybe English before.

Apparently based on 'The Lincolnshire Poacher' - I didn't know that.

St. Thomas (song - Wikipedia)