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  1. #1

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    I'm going to learn this song next month (I've picked a song a week to work on, so I learn it STONE COLD so I will never forget it again. Right now, I have 10 songs penned to internalize, through first week of March).

    Most of these tunes, I kind of know--played them before, could figure it out if you give me 10-15 minutes: my goal is to fully internalize these, so by the end of the year, I'll have a repertoire of 52 songs I could always play without thinking.

    I decided to pick Stardust for a week next month. The weird thing is I've never played this song; secondly, I've rarely heard it performed these days. Thirdly, this H. Carmichael tune was apparently HUGE, someone said it regularly the top song each year for many many years, possibly decades.

    My question is: what do you think of this tune, what accounts for it now being, for lack of better words, a "lost standard"?

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  3. #2

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    there are all the other tunes, then there's stardust

    nat king cole does it for me

    its the prettiest i can think of - that and skylark

    don't know why its not done often - maybe its a bit grand and serious, hard to do a light version that works

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    there are all the other tunes, then there's stardust

    nat king cole does it for me

    its the prettiest i can think of - that and skylark

    don't know why its not done often - maybe its a bit grand and serious, hard to do a light version that works
    Ya, Skylark is on my list right now, as well as Speak Low. What can I say? I decided to work on tunes I absolutely love, that are pretty AF.

    Here's the full list right now FYI, through first week of March:

    (my time is super limited, so I have to use it wisely, can't devote what is needed due to work, but still):

    The Way You Look Tonight
    Embraceable You
    My Funny Valentine
    September Song
    Come Sunday
    Skylark
    Stardust
    Without a Song
    Out of This World
    Speak Low

    Yeah, what can I say, I love pretty ballads.

  5. #4

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    Always a favorite of mine. A few years ago someone quite close to me took their life and it put me in a tail spin for some time. I finally worked that song up during the period of grieving as it resonated with me for some reason. I think it's just that new stuff comes along and the older things get lost. A good tune though will never really be lost. I find myself "finding" great old songs all the time.

  6. #5
    I don't know about lost , but it's my favorite tune. Ever.

    Okay. Slightly biased by being a singer, but I mean, it's a nearly perfect marrying of lyric and music. Both are transcendent in my opinion, but I'm a sap.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    My question is: what do you think of this tune, what accounts for it now being, for lack of better words, a "lost standard"?
    I think it's a generational thing. It literally was the most popular song of the 20th cent. IIRC from an older edition of The Guinness Book of World Records. (It got displaced by the Beatles' Michelle, a much less interesting song.)

    Many, many older tunes have the verse, and then chorus structure, the latter being 32 bars of AABA, or some variation. Most times, the "verse" part is much less musical, and is often thrown away or never performed. Stardust is an exception. Both the verse and chorus are good. The melody is a bit tricky. Not the easiest song to learn.

    Some people don't like the lyrics. Mitchell Parrish wrote some really, really bad lyrics in his day. But I actually like these more and more, as I am learning the song...they are sad, and if you've had a lost love, wistful..."haunts my reverie" is unusual--but if fits the mood of the song. These lyrics have a grandeur to them...as does the tune itself.

    There are also many great, but highly arranged, versions: Artie Shaw; the Tonight Show Band w/ Doc Severinsen did a good one that was a Grammy nominee; the Nat King Cole "outer space" version, and others. Very hard for a small group to do this, and not have audience members think "Yeah...OK pretty good, but where's the drama of the big, arrangement that I keep hearing in my head".

    I don't think Hoagy Carmichael wrote 600 or 1000 songs, like Jimmy Van Heusen or Jerome Kern, but he wrote some really memorable ones....this plus Skylark; Georgia on My Mind; The Nearness of You; and Heart and Soul.

    Carmichael was raised in Bloomington, Indiana, the home of Indiana University, one of the top music programs in the country. It probably was a pretty good music town even back then. (Clare Fischer, a superb arranger and all-around musician, was raised in the shadow of Michigan State Univ., and attended it for music study. Funny how that works.)
    Last edited by goldenwave77; 01-21-2017 at 07:25 AM.

  8. #7

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    Willie Nelson has a pretty fun performance of this tune.

  9. #8

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    I've played this one quite a bit, one of my favourites.

    Great verse. Hoagy could write a verse.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77
    Many, many older tunes have the verse, and then chorus structure, the latter being 32 bars of AABA, or some variation. Most times, the "verse" part is much less musical, and is often thrown away or never performed. Stardust is an exception. Both the verse and chorus are good. The melody is a bit tricky. Not the easiest song to learn.
    Absolutely on both counts. The melody is a beast to sing a capella when you first start messing with it and think that maybe "you sort of know it".

    It also has a ton of space. You've got to do something with it. I think it's a big trumpet tune. Usually includes the verse, which on trumpet comes across as a kind of candenza.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    Ya, Skylark is on my list right now, as well as Speak Low. What can I say? I decided to work on tunes I absolutely love, that are pretty AF.

    Here's the full list right now FYI, through first week of March:

    (my time is super limited, so I have to use it wisely, can't devote what is needed due to work, but still):

    The Way You Look Tonight
    Embraceable You
    My Funny Valentine
    September Song
    Come Sunday
    Skylark
    Stardust
    Without a Song
    Out of This World
    Speak Low

    Yeah, what can I say, I love pretty ballads.
    You work on tunes you like, you'll learn a lot of tunes.

  12. #11

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    Free advice: If the goal is internalizing tunes, never ever keep the leadsheet in front of you as a crutch or "just in case".

  13. #12

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    Tunes like Stardust, Lush Life and Autumn in New York have an almost through-composed quality that makes them more challenging than your typical 'user friendly' standard.

    I grew up hearing my mother sail through an elaborate version of Stardust on the piano. I once asked if she could play me something else but that was the extent of her repertoire!

    As you've noted NSJ, many artists (particularly guitarists) have sidestepped Stardust over the last few decades. One exception is Jonathan Kreisberg:

    Last edited by PMB; 01-19-2017 at 05:48 PM.

  14. #13

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    "Stardust" is a great tune and NSJ, your goal is laudable but if I may offer a word of caution: decide now is more important: a) learning each tune, or b) keeping the weekly schedule. if you try to do both, you may find out that as Johnny Mercer wrote, "Something's Gotta Give!" ;o) Wishing you all the best!

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolvinny
    Free advice: If the goal is internalizing tunes, never ever keep the leadsheet in front of you as a crutch or "just in case".
    Yep.

    I'll add, write your own lead sheet. Then hide it as soon as you xan.

  16. #15

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    I don't know why my last post doubled up and I can't seem to remove or edit either one.

    Here's a solo rendition of JK playing Stardust:


  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolvinny
    Free advice: If the goal is internalizing tunes, never ever keep the leadsheet in front of you as a crutch or "just in case".
    Yep.

    I'll add, write your own lead sheet. Then hide it as soon as you can.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    I don't know why my last post doubled up and I can't seem to remove or edit either one.
    Dirk is doing maintenance and an upgrade, so hereabouts "It's A Most Unusual Day." (I love June Christy's version of this tune, so why not post a link to it?)


  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Tunes like Stardust, Lush Life and Autumn in New York have an almost through-composed qualitythat makes them more challenging than your typical 'user friendly' standard.
    No definitive tonic cadence until the very end.

    Looking at it again tonight, it's still just the perfect tune. One of the best examples of word painting in all of popular music in my mind, especially the mood change at the end of the first chorus.

    Ethereal Harmony to start . Sounds like a dream . Sounds "long-ago". Sounds like Stardust. Then, with the lyric "but that was long ago" , you awaken with cheesy Lazyriver sounding "lighter fare " style.

    But then he dives right back in, gives in to the dream and even goes deeper lyrically , and by extending it further and longer, and more melancholy...."though i dream in vain". Of course all of that is without even touching on the perfect verse proceeding all of that.

    Musically, the whole thing lends itself to seemingly endless variations in phrasing.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    I don't know why my last post doubled up and I can't seem to remove or edit either one.

    Here's a solo rendition of JK playing Stardust:

    I was in the audience when he performed this before his master class. He was hugely disappointed that very few people knew what the tune was.

    I think for many of the songs I rely on the lead sheet more for the lyrics honestly. Before I didn't think it was important to know the words. Now I realize it's very very important . A lot of these tunes I've worked on and it takes me a bit to think of the intervals for the melody. Of course I agree the lead sheet needs to be thrown out. Also note for note memory is not enough, analysis especially intervallic patterns needs to happen. I realize this now and that explains why I learned a tune and forget it eventually have to relearn it. Because I didn't understand the structure before . Now when I think of "the way you look tonight" I can recognize the intervallic patterns and sequences that comprise the Melody.

  21. #20

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    Great tune, very cool as solo guitar too. And btw it's played a lot on hot jazz scene. Maybe not so much for straightaheaders.

  22. #21

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    Most of these tunes, I kind of know--played them before, could figure it out if you give me 10-15 minutes: my goal is to fully internalize these, so by the end of the year, I'll have a repertoire of 52 songs I could always play without thinking.
    Great goal... just do not forget that 1 week is pretty short term to really internalize a tune if you have day-time job and not much free time... and you have to repeat tunes from time to time... so by September you will have more than 30 tunes to keep up...
    I try not to put such long-time goals any more... I I handle one tune it's ok for me then I go for some next.
    If I do not I do not have gigs I forget tunes - except a few that I really love and play repeatedly for myself.
    And to keep it up by force is quite difficult for me... I can play something I am not really after if I have a gig. But I really cannot make myself repeat it just because I have it on my list if I am into another tune at the moment.
    But that's just me.

    what do you think of this tune, what accounts for it now being, for lack of better words, a "lost standard"?
    I would not call 'Stardust' lost but it really has some vintage vibe. First it is really old standard, and second it sounds like 20's music a lot..
    I also think that it is not so easy to improvize... lots of harmonic spaces... the melody is mostly based on chord tones and harmony is very basic...
    It's charm in how it works all together in original

    if you begin to invent something it loses lots of its originality... mostly people play it very close to original... and it also brings in this 'vintage' feel... some songs change with time... but Stardust is always the same... and always good.
    Sometimes it seems it's a bit like something untouchable...

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    "Stardust" is a great tune and NSJ, your goal is laudable but if I may offer a word of caution: decide now is more important: a) learning each tune, or b) keeping the weekly schedule. if you try to do both, you may find out that as Johnny Mercer wrote, "Something's Gotta Give!" ;o) Wishing you all the best!
    Thanks. I think it's doable. Most of these tunes I've already played and am familiar with, my understanding of harmony and the instrument is better than it was before; I think I have to just make the tradition from "sort of knowing them" to "knowing them without thinking". That means using all the tools I've been developing, levering what I've learned about the form, intervals, diatonic sequences, chromaticism, cadences, secondary domiants, etc.

    I mean, I haven't started reworking on "Speak Low" but I still can recall the main memory now. But now I understand that it goes from the 5th below the tonic to the third and the sequence of triplets that follow reinforce the M3, etc. That kind of understanding was lacking when I played the tune before.

    Basically, it's not enough to must memorize the chords and melody and hope you can retain it. That's my belief anyway. It comes from watching pros and realizing they don't have to THINK about what they're playing.

    It's just time to put it all together and build a solid repertoire that will stay with me for life.

    From studying and working, for me, the key thing is repetition from multiple angles (singing, harmonic and melodic analysis, reinforcement of the same, rinse and repeat and repeat.

  24. #23

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    It takes me a few months to properly learn a standard.

    I need to play it on 3 or 4 gigs as well. At least.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It takes me a few months to properly learn a standard.

    I need to play it on 3 or 4 gigs as well. At least.

    I almost need to learn it, play the heck out of it, leave it for a bit and come back. That second time around, relearning what I thought I already knew, that's big for me.

  26. #25

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    A lifetime - and that's OK.