Learning lots of tunes un perfectly vs focusing on one tune

**mooncef** · 12-21-2016, 08:47 PM

A cat i respect and friend of mine told me that he prefers i focus on just one tune and try play it in any key reharmonize the changed mess with it ,instead of learning lots of tunes haphazardly !
It would interesting to see how you guys tackle a tune and how you think a beginner should proceed!

**MarkRhodes** · 12-21-2016, 09:08 PM

Those aren't the only two options.

**mooncef** · 12-21-2016, 09:10 PM

What's your personal sweet spot ?

**MarkRhodes** · 12-21-2016, 10:49 PM

It varies. When I was obsessed with picking (--fixing my picking), I didn't learn many tunes. When I want some things to sing, I pick tunes I can sing (-that narrows the playing field) and work on them, and I'm more concerned with having the melody right, feeling comfortable and confident with it, and doing a Freddie Green style comp. I may not even solo, or it may be just a simple one chorus (-or even just 16 bars).

The hard thing for me is learning must-know tunes that I don't much care for. I STILL don't know "Green Dolphin Street" and "Stella By Starlight" for that reason. But in the coming year, I"m gonna learn 'em if it kills me.

With bebop things, the chore is more about getting 'em up to tempo. That takes as long as it takes.

**mjo** · 12-23-2016, 06:27 PM

I'm just a beginner myself and I intend to follow your friends advice. I've been down the other road in school. We'd learn 1 jazz tune a month, on top of everything else we were learning that didn't leave much time to get the tune down and left us with just a cursory understanding of the style.
So I'll take this one tune, get the chords in every place on the neck that sounds decent, (including simple triads). Same with the melody, maybe even reharm that. Get every variation on the rhythm that seems to work. At the same time I'll vary my studies with all the arps and start looking at why some of these passing tones work. As someone around here said, all the action is on the dominants, so I'll pay extra attention to those. ... maybe I'll learn a bit about superimposing some of these arps, but I'm getting ahead of myself.
I also have the luxury, I guess of not having to perform with a band, so I have time for all this.

So there's my thoughts -lol

-best,
Mike

**mooncef** · 12-23-2016, 08:53 PM

That's awesme man ! and Yes playing through the song with drop 2 on string set 4321 is mandatory ! I only recelty started doing that ! i used to jump all over the place in comping ; not good !
So yeah a deep study in the voice leading of the tune ! taking one chord and just improvise over it for even minutes !
then practicing how to link chord in a solo guitar fashion etc etc ..

**keith** · 12-23-2016, 09:18 PM

I don't think it's about the tune to your friend. He telling you to use the tune as an etude and develop different techniques such as the suggested transposition ( many other techniques certainly outside of this ) and get the technique down fully. The tune is just a vehicle to do it with.

Someone I knew in NY had taken lessons with Tristano and for a year all they did was one tune. It wasn't about the repertoire but learning how do to master the techniques ( and i don't mean fingerings here ). Maybe not as enjoyable early on but once skilled, versatility has it's rewards!

**ronjazz** · 12-23-2016, 09:35 PM

There are only 10 tunes, really, assemblages of various very familiar chord patterns. The melodies and lyrics are all different, but the basics are quite simple. Learn to instantly determine what key you're in for each section. Apart from bop heads, most tunes are remarkably easy. Vol. 3 of Leavitt's Modern Method for Guitar has all the info you need for chord-scale relationships.

**Drumbler** · 12-23-2016, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by ronjazz

There are only 10 tunes, really, assemblages of various very familiar chord patterns. The melodies and lyrics are all different, but the basics are quite simple. Learn to instantly determine what key you're in for each section. Apart from bop heads, most tunes are remarkably easy. Vol. 3 of Leavitt's Modern Method for Guitar has all the info you need for chord-scale relationships.

Tell us which ten?

**MarkRhodes** · 12-23-2016, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by ronjazz

There are only 10 tunes, really, assemblages of various very familiar chord patterns. .

Would your examples of these ten tunes resemble Bruce Forman's "mother tunes" list? (It varies from time to time but usually includes ATTYA, Autumn Leaves, Just Friends, Green Dolphin Street, Satin Doll, A-Train, It Could Happen To You, Honeysuckle Rose, Stella, and TWNBAY. O, Cole Porter's I Love You and Sweet Georgia Brown. It's always ten but not always the same ten.)

**henryrobinett** · 12-24-2016, 02:10 AM

For some time every day I would improvise on the same 10 tunes. Tempo increase for each one. Interesting that they were 10 tunes.

Body and Soul
Stella
Along Came Betty
Bye Bye Blackbird
Evidence
Airegin
Just Friends
Rhythm Changes
Donna Lee
Cherokee.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**MarkRhodes** · 12-24-2016, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

For some time every day I would improvise on the same 10 tunes. Tempo increase for each one. Interesting that they were 10 tunes.

Body and Soul
Stella
Along Came Betty
Bye Bye Blackbird
Evidence
Airegin
Just Friends
Rhythm Changes
Donna Lee
Cherokee.

That's a great list, Henry. Thanks.

**Jonzo** · 12-24-2016, 12:15 PM

This is a great question.

The pithy answer to every forum post is "learn tunes". But how?

You can ask the same questions about a lot of things we practice. Should I master a pattern, or work on new patterns every day?

I'm guessing the answer is to do a bit of both. Go deep on a few tunes while also exploring widely. Each will inform the other.

**ronjazz** · 12-24-2016, 12:40 PM

When I say 10 tunes, I am not discussing specific songs, but the patterns that are common throughout the type of tune jazz players like. Patterns such as II-V-I; I-VI-II-V, I-#Idim-II-V, I-b3dim-II-V and their derivatives like III-IV-II-V, etc.

Getting these patterns into you ears will hasten the tune-learning process, and you'll find that, in reality, there aren't that many deviations from the "standard" groups of changes.

**henryrobinett** · 12-24-2016, 01:27 PM

For me, it was about getting the phrasing together and singing at various tempos. For me, 10 variations in types, is too general and vague. I like specificity. Tunes. That's what I was after. Once you really KNOW a few handful of tunes you kind of know them all.

And ronjazz, I wasn't really responding to what you were saying. I was only drawing a comparison with what I myself have done regarding daily practicing of 10 tunes. I thought it was interesting.

**MarkRhodes** · 12-24-2016, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

For me, it was about getting the phrasing together and singing at various tempos. For me, 10 variations in types, is too general and vague. I like specificity. Tunes. That's what I was after. Once you really KNOW a few handful of tunes you kind of know them all.

This reminds me of Joe Pass's response to an invitation to "jam". He said, "I don't jam. I play tunes."

**christianm77** · 12-24-2016, 03:27 PM

After you've gone is a monster of a tune changes wise. Bit of a Rosetta Stone.

Also embraceable you.

**MarkRhodes** · 12-24-2016, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

After you've gone is a monster of a tune changes wise. Bit of a Rosetta Stone.

Also embraceable you.

Christian, when you're teaching that tune to a student, what changes do you use?

**PMB** · 12-24-2016, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

After you've gone is a monster of a tune changes wise. Bit of a Rosetta Stone.

Also embraceable you.

Agreed. I played Just Friends yesterday and its IV-iv-I opening immediately reminded me of After You've Gone.

**christianm77** · 12-24-2016, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Christian, when you're teaching that tune to a student, what changes do you use?

Errr next question? *looks shifty*

**goldenwave77** · 12-24-2016, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Would your examples of these ten tunes resemble Bruce Forman's "mother tunes" list? (It varies from time to time but usually includes ATTYA, Autumn Leaves, Just Friends, Green Dolphin Street, Satin Doll, A-Train, It Could Happen To You, Honeysuckle Rose, Stella, and TWNBAY. O, Cole Porter's I Love You and Sweet Georgia Brown. It's always ten but not always the same ten.)

Someone recently mentioned Ralph Patt and his Plain Vanilla website of simple changes. That website also has a typology and classification of tunes based on roman numeral analysis of the changes...this could be really powerful in learning/organizing tunes.