The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #101

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    Yeah, it's a dim7 arp starting and ending on Bb

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  3. #102

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    The A is just part of the diminished scale. When demonstrating BH played the first chord and a diminished scale and says "that's what it is...that scale is the song." that second part I found very interesting, as off the hand remarks like that coming from him usually imply something big/important.

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I'm curious to know more about this, as most people seem to think it's diminished. What chord do you think it is? I assume we're talking about the clip from the film music in post no. 1, where the melody starts after the intro. (unfortunately I can't listen to it at the moment).
    If we remove the top melody note: Em7/-5
    Last edited by JCat; 02-05-2019 at 10:05 AM.

  5. #104

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    Hey that’s another thought someone hit me with the other day asking about writing out charts.

    Like many iim7 chords iim7b5 often anticipate the root of the V7 in the top voice.

    It’s reasonably common to write this as a iim11 but we don’t do this with IIm7b5 chords, we don’t have iim11b5

    One of those things

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    The A is just part of the diminished scale. When demonstrating BH played the first chord and a diminished scale and says "that's what it is...that scale is the song." that second part I found very interesting, as off the hand remarks like that coming from him usually imply something big/important.
    It’s also part of the D minor complex. Or if you like C7 —> third of A7. Same scale works on o7.

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    If we remove the top melody note: Em7/-5
    I don’t think you’ve checked out the original version.

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I don’t think you’ve checked out the original version.
    Just scratching the surface.
    m7/-5 is also referred to as "half diminished". (The difference is a b7 compared to a bb7 "dim7"). The b7 (D) resolves into the major 3rd (C#) of the next chord. That has been my understanding and I like the sound. But I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong regarding the original version...

    By the way C# is the 13th in Esus4add13/-5 as played in the workshop referred to above.
    When I first listened to the original I didn't hear the C# (bb7). I'll have a closer look.

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It’s also part of the D minor complex. Or if you like C7 —> third of A7. Same scale works on o7.
    right when he says diminished it includes all the related doms. I e-mailed Liane Fainsinger (she teaches Barry workshops in TO with Howard Rees) if the diminished scale was correct for scale outline. She said it's fine for the outline, but playing should be mixes of the related doms.

    she also answered that question about the #iv half to iv- scale outline, and she basically said the same thing as we thought, but she plays the change even in 1 bar phrase.

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    Just scratching the surface.
    m7/-5 is also referred to as "half diminished". (The difference is a b7 compared to a bb7 "dim7"). The b7 (D) resolves into the major 3rd (C#) of the next chord. That has been my understanding and I like the sound. But I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong regarding the original version...
    Well that's good. The original opening chord from the movie soundtrack (posted above) is pretty much the most obvious Bbo7 you are ever likely to hear. They even arpeggiate it in the left hand of the piano part in case you didn't get it. Cheers, Victor.

    There's nothing 'wrong' with using the Em7b5 A7 progression. I would say this is pretty standard to most jazz players. If you like that sound, you are not alone.

    By the way C# is the 13th in Esus4add13/-5 as played in the workshop referred to above.
    When I first listened to the original I didn't hear the C# (bb7). I'll have a closer look.
    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    He talks about "diminished", but he plays Esus4add13/-5. (very close to the original opening chord).
    It's the suspended 4th, that makes the transition possible. (It becomes the root in the next chord).
    (The opening chord is not the key of the song)
    The chord Peter plays in the video above is

    x x 8 6 5 5

    Or Bb, Db/C#, E, A

    Which is a Bbo7 with an A instead of a G on top.

    If you want to call it an Esus4add13/-5, be my guest. You are introducing a bass note which I don't hear, so is entirely theoretical and seems a little OTT. You could also call it Eo7add11. Which is easier. But as Peter plays Bb in the bass, it's a Bbo7(maj7) in this case.

    Dim chord with non dim chord tones in the melody aren't terribly unusual.

    TBH, I tend to go with Peter on this stuff. He's quite good at jazz guitar, you know :-) And he knows the repertoire inside out. He will have checked out the original score and so on.

  11. #110

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    Oh yeah so Joe PM'd me yesterday re: the progression

    C --> F#m7b5 --> Fm6 --> C (or whatever)

    What to play on that.

    I say, D7 to Bb7 or Am6 to Fm6

    But if there's two chords per bar, that's hard. So you outline the dominant chord 1 2 3 5 or use a permutation, you know like Giant Steps tetrachords.

    Barry teaches this type of outline a lot.

    e.g. D E F# A Bb C D F on | F#m7b5 Fm6 |

  12. #111

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    Getting back to Stella, the A does eventually resolve to G against the Bbo7, so it can be thought a long accented non chord tone...

    In the same way the first chord of Mahler's Adagietto for strings is not a maj7 chord in the jazz sense.... not really....

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Getting back to Stella, the A does eventually resolve to G against the Bbo7, so it can be thought a long accented non chord tone...

    In the same way the first chord of Mahler's Adagietto for strings is not a maj7 chord in the jazz sense.... not really....
    A lot of the Broadway show composers back then were heavily influenced by classical music(e.g. Operetta), so Mahler is an apt example of where he probably got it from. Sort of like the first note and chord of "Spring is Here".

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    A lot of the Broadway show composers back then were heavily influenced by classical music(e.g. Operetta), so Mahler is an apt example of where he probably got it from. Sort of like the first note and chord of "Spring is Here".
    Esp as the original version of Stella literally sounds like Rachmaninov.

    It’s not broadway, it’s Hollywood in this case- and Hollywood scores in this period are obviously coming out of European romanticism (not least because of the many European composers who ended up there.)
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-06-2019 at 03:44 AM.

  15. #114

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    Yes interesting to read about Victor Young (composed Stella), in his youth he studied piano and violin in Warsaw and Paris.

    Victor Young - Wikipedia

  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well that's good. The original opening chord from the movie soundtrack (posted above) is pretty much the most obvious Bbo7 you are ever likely to hear. They even arpeggiate it in the left hand of the piano part in case you didn't get it. Cheers, Victor.

    There's nothing 'wrong' with using the Em7b5 A7 progression. I would say this is pretty standard to most jazz players. If you like that sound, you are not alone.



    The chord Peter plays in the video above is

    x x 8 6 5 5

    Or Bb, Db/C#, E, A

    Which is a Bbo7 with an A instead of a G on top.

    If you want to call it an Esus4add13/-5, be my guest. You are introducing a bass note which I don't hear, so is entirely theoretical and seems a little OTT. You could also call it Eo7add11. Which is easier. But as Peter plays Bb in the bass, it's a Bbo7(maj7) in this case.

    Dim chord with non dim chord tones in the melody aren't terribly unusual.

    TBH, I tend to go with Peter on this stuff. He's quite good at jazz guitar, you know :-) And he knows the repertoire inside out. He will have checked out the original score and so on.
    OK, you're right. The opening chord is an unambiguous Edim7. Straight ascending minor triads.

    I'm guilty of being blocked by my own perceptions (I guess I heard what I wanted to hear).
    The second time it appears in the first chorus (melody notes Bb-A) it's also Edim7.
    In the 2nd chorus (change of key, Harmonica lead) the melody notes are D-C# played over a Ddim7 the first time and Fdim7 (which essentially is the same chord) the second time.

    Now I just have to "get it through my skull" that "that scale is the song" as there are a lot of other things going on in between these changes. My own personal documentation of this song contains zero (!) dim7-chords, but a few m7/-5 (Half-dims). But this is the first time I address the original, so maybe I'll rearrange my interpretation. I still enjoy this thread. Awesome input guys.

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    My own personal documentation of this song contains zero (!) dim7-chords, but a few m7/-5 (Half-dims). But this is the first time I address the original, so maybe I'll rearrange my interpretation. I still enjoy this thread. Awesome input guys.
    The first chord is the only fully dim chord I play (except as subs or harmonic movement). I counted the half dims I use for my basic harmonic outline, and I use 7!

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    OK, you're right. The opening chord is an unambiguous Edim7. Straight ascending minor triads.

    I'm guilty of being blocked by my own perceptions (I guess I heard what I wanted to hear).
    The second time it appears in the first chorus (melody notes Bb-A) it's also Edim7.
    In the 2nd chorus (change of key, Harmonica lead) the melody notes are D-C# played over a Ddim7 the first time and Fdim7 (which essentially is the same chord) the second time.

    Now I just have to "get it through my skull" that "that scale is the song" as there are a lot of other things going on in between these changes. My own personal documentation of this song contains zero (!) dim7-chords, but a few m7/-5 (Half-dims). But this is the first time I address the original, so maybe I'll rearrange my interpretation. I still enjoy this thread. Awesome input guys.
    No problem....

    I’d still call it a Bbo7, same difference note wise but that’s what seems to be in the bass.

    Personally this is how I learnt much of the harmony I know FWIW comparing versions of changes.

    In general the move in jazz during the 50s was a way from dim7s and towards ii v’s. It’s good to look out for this stuff, because who actually likes playing on diminished chords?

    So you have learnt we can make this sub

    Bbo7 becomes Em7b5 A7b9 in Bb

    Or

    Io7 becomes #VIm7b5 VII7b9

  19. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    The first chord is the only fully dim chord I play (except as subs or harmonic movement). I counted the half dims I use for my basic harmonic outline, and I use 7!
    That tune is the m7b5 workout along with Woody n You (last 8 is the same as the A section of that tune harmonically.)

    I quite like dim7 in the last 8 too... the original changes have quite a few differences not just the first chord.

    But, you can solo on the old changes with the new changes provided you aren’t a spanner and put a b5 on the A7b9. Sounds a bit crap when I did it. That sound should be dim/harmonic minor mode V/h-W scale with a regular 5 - not the altered scale.

    London pianist Sam Leak suggests C/Db as a sub for the first chord as a way to keep everyone happy.

    Db C E G (A)

  20. #119

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    Stella by Starlight - The Real Chord Changes-ste-jpg
    Here's the right way (minus a few minor changes, literally). Tongue in cheek. but this is what i like

  21. #120

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    Try Gm6 instead of Em7b5 A7 in bar 10 then:

    Dm Bbm6/Db F/C Bbo7 Am7b5 D7b9

    Also Ebminmaj7 instead of Ab7#11

    Pretty old school

  22. #121

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    Btw I just rediscovered the best jazz chord wanker’s book “Dick Hyman’s 100 songs every musician should know.”

    There’s a guy who likes his original and correct changes. More so than human beings, I have heard.

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Try Gm6 instead of Em7b5 A7 in bar 10 then:

    Dm Bbm6/Db F/C Bbo7 Am7b5 D7b9

    Also Ebminmaj7 instead of Ab7#11

    Pretty old school
    Thanks! will definitely try (though it impinges on my signature move). yeah, old school is my thing. I like to imagine those romantic string sections when i make arrangements. not even jazz really.

    do you mean Gmin6 to A7 or just Gmin6 for the bar?

  24. #123

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    Dm Bbm6 (where there was d-7) /Db F (where there was b half to Bbmin) /C Bbo7 Am7b5 D7b9 (where there was fmaj)...then end up on g-7 c7?

  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Dm Bbm6 (where there was d-7) /Db F (where there was b half to Bbmin) /C Bbo7 Am7b5 D7b9 (where there was fmaj)...then end up on g-7 c7?
    One bar each, end up in the bridge

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Thanks! will definitely try (though it impinges on my signature move). yeah, old school is my thing. I like to imagine those romantic string sections when i make arrangements. not even jazz really.

    do you mean Gmin6 to A7 or just Gmin6 for the bar?
    No A7, just Gm6 for the bar