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Did another run, in the key of G this time. Granted, nylon string makes everything more romantic, but I really enjoy what I'm finding in this old tune.
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03-18-2016 05:47 PM
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Ebm/maj7 sound in bar 21, of course!!! What was I hearing?
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It would have been more novel if it hadn't already been done in "Spring Is Here".
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
SBS took longer than other songs of that period to be taken up by jazz musicians. Other than Red Norvo, very few Swing players played it.
The boppers were the first to adopt it, but I wonder who was responsible for ditching the beginning diminished chord for the bVmin7b5 chord?
Bird might have played it as a ballad with the Bird With Strings LP, but he never played it in a small group.
The earliest recorded version that used that change that I know of, was The Jimmy Raney/Phil Woods 'Early Quintet' LP in 1956.
That pre-dated the Miles Davis version and the Tal version by a few years.
Anybody know any earlier version?
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This is a really interesting discussion because it overlaps with a conversation that has gone on for centuries in, of all things, THEOLOGY and BIBLE, not to mention literature.
What is there relationship between a work of art's "meaning" and features as endowed by the original producer, on the one hand, and what became of that work of art, how it was received, interpreted, used, etc. in subsequent generations. Is the "author's meaning" the one and only meaning, and others are wrong? Is the author merely the one who tossed the piece of art into the river of history and culture, losing control of it almost from the moment of its creation? Is the author's view of the work of art the only legitimate one, the one to which also others must hold?
And related: to what extent is the outward form, or the features, of the work of art fixed in the form in which the artist placed them. So Michelangelo created gaudy, brightly colored frescos that yellowed over time with age... and the yellowed, discolored ones became the "canonical" version. When they were cleaned, restoring their brilliant colors, many people were appalled! Many accepted versions of literary works and poems have substantial sections that differ from what the original author or artist created. Should they be revised back to the "original" form or celebrated as fresh fruit, signs of the vitality of the work of art?
Those are just a few of the kinds of questions that people who work in the history of art, literature, and even scripture find themselves asking; and they might even be pertinent, in an admittedly much more light-handed sense, for our thoughts and considerations here.
Professor's hat removed, back on peg. I'm hittin' the head...
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03-19-2016, 03:08 PM #30dortmundjazzguitar Guest
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Earliest versions I can think of are Stan Getz's Carnegie Hall (live) and Norgran (studio) recordings from Nov and Dec '52, again featuring Jimmy Raney. Originally Posted by sgcim
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That would have to be the earliest bop recording of it. I wonder if they used the diminished change, or the half diminished? Originally Posted by pubylakeg
Either change works, but I don't know why BH was so against the half diminshed change.
That type of progression occurs in tunes like "Old Folks" and "I Should Care...
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hey mr B, Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
nice version there man ...
are you sticking to the Bb original film changes you posted earlier ? (you said there might be tweaks edits to come but none came)
I also like the dim sound at the top of this tune ....
thanks for the help man
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Close...a few changes maybe...I don't write this stuff down, really, so once I get going...
There's a few things I've definitely settled on...I'll post again tomorrow and talk about it.
Now I think I want to play the head in G and modulate to Bb for the "blowing."
A few edits made on page 1.Last edited by mr. beaumont; 03-20-2016 at 11:49 AM.
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So is the consensus that the first change is a diminished?
BH suggests a Maj7Dim.
JP says its a straight A7, but he's thinking about improv not "chord melody".
Monk says its a relative minor 6 with 6 in the bass (same notes as the usual half-diminished, but pushing in a different harmonic direction I guess).
A lot of the confusion arises because of playing the opening over a pedal tone - so they could be seen as slash chords I guess.
One way or the other the ambiguity is intentional ;-)
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It's a little more complicated than just diminished, because of that melody note...lots of things it can be written as if you take that note into account...
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I think the crucial thing is that there is a pick up bar. You have to start listening from there.
Starting from there, notes A and Bb from pick up bar (if I remember the whole thing correctly) I hear as
A7/G (notes G Db E A) - going to - A7b9/G (G Db E Bb), where A7b9 = Bbdim = Dbdim ...,
then, note A from the first bar I hear as a part of Gm9/E (E Bb D A) - A7b9/E (E Bb Db A) - Edim ...
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To me, this is the "real" version, nobody else has come close in terms of creativity, harmony, ensemble playing although Keith Jarrett's version gets a nod too...
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The Miles version is fantastic, I used it as the first point of reference when I was working on the tune a couple of months ago, but it's hard to do all that on solo guitar! Well impossible for me actually!
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Hi guys,
I have written a reharm for stella by starlight for any one who might be interested, here is the chart. more than happy to get into a discussion on anyone's thoughts or questions on the reharm, cheers guys (really appreciate this forum)
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Great stuff from Peter Bernstein... by the way he refers to the movie too.
I always heard these two first chords as lind of separated one chord but I did not name it diminished
I really like his approach... vey musical, based on ability to hear (not necessarily to name)
By the way I noticed that Peter often calls any chord based on diminished triad (no matter what the other tones are) - a diminished
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Great thread! But now I want to spend the morning starting this tune on a Dbdim instead of doing the work that pays the bills
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My favourite version is the (admittedly) romantic one by George Shearing. It cleaves to the spirit of the original soundtrack but includes composed/improvise sections that I could imagine Debussy playing. Shearing plays it in C. (note the long pedal on a low C at the beginning of the melody). The first melody note chord copies from the original but the chord has its own kind of wow! Like the original there is a lot of attention to bass line movement.
Last edited by Roberoo; 12-26-2016 at 09:01 PM. Reason: error
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In the key of E the 2nd note is d#....the chart is calling for a#m7b5.....I need a chord that has a d# in it that will work here....thanks....Dan
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Some confusion there, Dan. D# is the 7th note in the key of E.
Am7b5 has an Eb which is the same note as D#.
But you say the chord is A#m7b5...are you sure?
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Context needed...
Just as a guess...
A#m7b5 is of course not in the key of E - speaking of teh key strictly...
but it looks much like some kind of supension or aniticipation in voice-leading A# - C# - E - G#
Or maybe C#m6 with 6th in the bass
(I have no idea what d# has got to do with that though)
Anyway contest is needed
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I am guessing D# is the melody note.
A#m7b5 although not derived from an E Major scale is a common chord in a major key.
In the key of C the equivalent is F#m7b5.
The chord as described includes A# C# E G# D#
So how to play that on guitar with D# as the lead voice.
with 5 notes:
A# E G# C# D# X
On guitar, picking your favorite 4 of 5 notes is often the way to go.
Some possibilities:
A# X G# C# D# X (w/o b5)
A# E G# X D# X (w/o b3)
X E G# C# D# X (w/o root)
E G# A# D# X X or X X E G# A# D# (w/o b3) X E G# A# D# X possible but is a big stretch.
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That's what I meant. Originally Posted by bako
This is bass movement of IV to 2nd tonic inversion (cadential 6\5 chord) -
Amaj7 - A#7b5 - Emaj7/B - B7 - Emaj7
Or in some gospel style Amaj7 - A#7b5 - Emaj7/B - Cdim - C#m7 etc
Ir the ther way arounf Night and Day changes... with descending bass.
I just do not dig what is the sence of making D# over this chord.. without context.
If I was give it abstractly I would think that with this D# add it is going to G# minor: D# sharp in the melody is 11 of the II in G# and it anticipates the bass of the V(D#) of G#
With all these sharps it loos more complex that it reall is
In C major it would be F#m7b5 add11 (11=B) - B7 - Em7
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I think we might be over complicating what might have been a simple typo by jazzdan. So, Dan, did you mean Am7b5 or A#m7b5?
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Correct me if I'm wrong Dan, but this came from the Stella by Starlight chord melody thread. Dan is looking for the first chord for Stella in the key of E, which on the lead sheet is A#m7b5.
That thread has a debate that it shouldn't be a minor7b5 chord at all, but instead the first chord is a diminished (in the key of E it would be E dim or Bb dim in the original key instead of the Em7b5)
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