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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    What What?
    Oh yeah so Joe PM'd me yesterday re: the progression

    C --> F#m7b5 --> Fm6 --> C (or whatever)

    What to play on that.

    I say, D7 to Bb7 or Am6 to Fm6

    But if there's two chords per bar, that's hard. So you outline the dominant chord 1 2 3 5 or use a permutation, you know like Giant Steps tetrachords.

    Barry teaches this type of outline a lot.

    e.g. D E F# A Bb C D F on | F#m7b5 Fm6 |

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  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    But if there's two chords per bar, that's hard. So you outline the dominant chord 1 2 3 5 or use a permutation, you know like Giant Steps tetrachords.

    Barry teaches this type of outline a lot.

    e.g. D E F# A Bb C D F on | F#m7b5 Fm6 |
    he does?!

    all this shit you learned from him irl blows my mind whenever i hear something that's not in his materials lol.

    Hoping to go to workshop in person in May
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  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    he does?!

    all this shit you learned from him irl blows my mind whenever i hear something that's not in his materials lol.

    Hoping to go to workshop in person in May
    Cool! Every class is different. It's always a roast. Sometimes roastier than other times.

    Well, it's not too obscure, it pops up in some of the Roni Ben Hur materials... But yeah, if it's not in the DVD I think? Maybe just didn't choose any tunes where you need to do this.

    He did it on the Lady Bird turnaround in class, so

    C D E G Eb F G Bb | Ab Bb C Eb Db Eb F Ab | G

  5. #104

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    what does roast mean? to me that means they pick out one person and completely tear him apart lol...if so i'll reconsider
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  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    what does roast mean? to me that means they pick out one person and completely tear him apart lol...if so i'll reconsider
    It means that it's hard ear work for 2hrs at full bop tempo. And that's just the improv class.

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    It means that it's hard ear work for 2hrs at full bop tempo. And that's just the improv class.
    oh okay ill just leave my amp off
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  8. #107

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    Getting back to Stella, the A does eventually resolve to G against the Bbo7, so it can be thought a long accented non chord tone...

    In the same way the first chord of Mahler's Adagietto for strings is not a maj7 chord in the jazz sense.... not really....

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Getting back to Stella, the A does eventually resolve to G against the Bbo7, so it can be thought a long accented non chord tone...

    In the same way the first chord of Mahler's Adagietto for strings is not a maj7 chord in the jazz sense.... not really....
    A lot of the Broadway show composers back then were heavily influenced by classical music(e.g. Operetta), so Mahler is an apt example of where he probably got it from. Sort of like the first note and chord of "Spring is Here".

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    A lot of the Broadway show composers back then were heavily influenced by classical music(e.g. Operetta), so Mahler is an apt example of where he probably got it from. Sort of like the first note and chord of "Spring is Here".
    Esp as the original version of Stella literally sounds like Rachmaninov.

    It’s not broadway, it’s Hollywood in this case- and Hollywood scores in this period are obviously coming out of European romanticism (not least because of the many European composers who ended up there.)
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-06-2019 at 03:44 AM.

  11. #110

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    Yes interesting to read about Victor Young (composed Stella), in his youth he studied piano and violin in Warsaw and Paris.

    Victor Young - Wikipedia

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Well that's good. The original opening chord from the movie soundtrack (posted above) is pretty much the most obvious Bbo7 you are ever likely to hear. They even arpeggiate it in the left hand of the piano part in case you didn't get it. Cheers, Victor.

    There's nothing 'wrong' with using the Em7b5 A7 progression. I would say this is pretty standard to most jazz players. If you like that sound, you are not alone.



    The chord Peter plays in the video above is

    x x 8 6 5 5

    Or Bb, Db/C#, E, A

    Which is a Bbo7 with an A instead of a G on top.

    If you want to call it an Esus4add13/-5, be my guest. You are introducing a bass note which I don't hear, so is entirely theoretical and seems a little OTT. You could also call it Eo7add11. Which is easier. But as Peter plays Bb in the bass, it's a Bbo7(maj7) in this case.

    Dim chord with non dim chord tones in the melody aren't terribly unusual.

    TBH, I tend to go with Peter on this stuff. He's quite good at jazz guitar, you know :-) And he knows the repertoire inside out. He will have checked out the original score and so on.
    OK, you're right. The opening chord is an unambiguous Edim7. Straight ascending minor triads.

    I'm guilty of being blocked by my own perceptions (I guess I heard what I wanted to hear).
    The second time it appears in the first chorus (melody notes Bb-A) it's also Edim7.
    In the 2nd chorus (change of key, Harmonica lead) the melody notes are D-C# played over a Ddim7 the first time and Fdim7 (which essentially is the same chord) the second time.

    Now I just have to "get it through my skull" that "that scale is the song" as there are a lot of other things going on in between these changes. My own personal documentation of this song contains zero (!) dim7-chords, but a few m7/-5 (Half-dims). But this is the first time I address the original, so maybe I'll rearrange my interpretation. I still enjoy this thread. Awesome input guys.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    My own personal documentation of this song contains zero (!) dim7-chords, but a few m7/-5 (Half-dims). But this is the first time I address the original, so maybe I'll rearrange my interpretation. I still enjoy this thread. Awesome input guys.
    The first chord is the only fully dim chord I play (except as subs or harmonic movement). I counted the half dims I use for my basic harmonic outline, and I use 7!
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  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    OK, you're right. The opening chord is an unambiguous Edim7. Straight ascending minor triads.

    I'm guilty of being blocked by my own perceptions (I guess I heard what I wanted to hear).
    The second time it appears in the first chorus (melody notes Bb-A) it's also Edim7.
    In the 2nd chorus (change of key, Harmonica lead) the melody notes are D-C# played over a Ddim7 the first time and Fdim7 (which essentially is the same chord) the second time.

    Now I just have to "get it through my skull" that "that scale is the song" as there are a lot of other things going on in between these changes. My own personal documentation of this song contains zero (!) dim7-chords, but a few m7/-5 (Half-dims). But this is the first time I address the original, so maybe I'll rearrange my interpretation. I still enjoy this thread. Awesome input guys.
    No problem....

    I’d still call it a Bbo7, same difference note wise but that’s what seems to be in the bass.

    Personally this is how I learnt much of the harmony I know FWIW comparing versions of changes.

    In general the move in jazz during the 50s was a way from dim7s and towards ii v’s. It’s good to look out for this stuff, because who actually likes playing on diminished chords?

    So you have learnt we can make this sub

    Bbo7 becomes Em7b5 A7b9 in Bb

    Or

    Io7 becomes #VIm7b5 VII7b9

  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    The first chord is the only fully dim chord I play (except as subs or harmonic movement). I counted the half dims I use for my basic harmonic outline, and I use 7!
    That tune is the m7b5 workout along with Woody n You (last 8 is the same as the A section of that tune harmonically.)

    I quite like dim7 in the last 8 too... the original changes have quite a few differences not just the first chord.

    But, you can solo on the old changes with the new changes provided you aren’t a spanner and put a b5 on the A7b9. Sounds a bit crap when I did it. That sound should be dim/harmonic minor mode V/h-W scale with a regular 5 - not the altered scale.

    London pianist Sam Leak suggests C/Db as a sub for the first chord as a way to keep everyone happy.

    Db C E G (A)

  16. #115

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    Stella by Starlight - The Real Chord Changes-ste-jpg
    Here's the right way (minus a few minor changes, literally). Tongue in cheek. but this is what i like
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  17. #116

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    Try Gm6 instead of Em7b5 A7 in bar 10 then:

    Dm Bbm6/Db F/C Bbo7 Am7b5 D7b9

    Also Ebminmaj7 instead of Ab7#11

    Pretty old school

  18. #117

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    Btw I just rediscovered the best jazz chord wanker’s book “Dick Hyman’s 100 songs every musician should know.”

    There’s a guy who likes his original and correct changes. More so than human beings, I have heard.

  19. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Try Gm6 instead of Em7b5 A7 in bar 10 then:

    Dm Bbm6/Db F/C Bbo7 Am7b5 D7b9

    Also Ebminmaj7 instead of Ab7#11

    Pretty old school
    Thanks! will definitely try (though it impinges on my signature move). yeah, old school is my thing. I like to imagine those romantic string sections when i make arrangements. not even jazz really.

    do you mean Gmin6 to A7 or just Gmin6 for the bar?
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  20. #119

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    Dm Bbm6 (where there was d-7) /Db F (where there was b half to Bbmin) /C Bbo7 Am7b5 D7b9 (where there was fmaj)...then end up on g-7 c7?
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  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Btw I just rediscovered the best jazz chord wanker’s book “Dick Hyman’s 100 songs every musician should know.”

    There’s a guy who likes his original and correct changes. More so than human beings, I have heard.
    if he grew up with a name like that i'm not surprised he hates people
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  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    if he grew up with a name like that i'm not surprised he hates people
    The thought had crossed my mind. But does he need to be such a ....... oh hang on.....

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    Dm Bbm6 (where there was d-7) /Db F (where there was b half to Bbmin) /C Bbo7 Am7b5 D7b9 (where there was fmaj)...then end up on g-7 c7?
    One bar each, end up in the bridge

  24. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    Thanks! will definitely try (though it impinges on my signature move). yeah, old school is my thing. I like to imagine those romantic string sections when i make arrangements. not even jazz really.

    do you mean Gmin6 to A7 or just Gmin6 for the bar?
    No A7, just Gm6 for the bar

  25. #124

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    they were making fun of him and he just broke like a hyman
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  26. #125

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    oooh the slashes are bass notes, i thought they were bar lines
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  27. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    So you have learnt we can make this sub

    Bbo7 becomes Em7b5 A7b9 in Bb

    Or

    Io7 becomes #VIm7b5 VII7b9
    should that be #IV7b5 Christian ?

    Pingu

  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu View Post
    should that be #IV7b5 Christian ?

    Pingu
    Just checking :-)

  29. #128

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    Actually I think you’ll find it’s #IV MINOR 7b5 ;-)

  30. #129

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    Yootubers should tune in to a long explanation by Jens. Called: Analyzing a Standard -Stella. It is worth checking out!

  31. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Yes interesting to read about Victor Young (composed Stella), in his youth he studied piano and violin in Warsaw and Paris.

    Victor Young - Wikipedia
    Thanks, Graham. See Christian, he did compose five musicals, in addition to the many films he did.
    I deserve at least half credit on that one, if not full credit!

  32. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    The thought had crossed my mind. But does he need to be such a ....... oh hang on.....
    I actually met Dick Hyman when I was a kid. He was playing in an All-Star Band at a jazz festival. I was in an All-Kid Band at the same festival. He did indeed strike me as a mean guy when I went up to him. He said,"Well, what do you want?" I felt like taking off right then and there, but I got up the courage to say, "I've got a Tal Farlow record from 1959 that you played on."
    He thought for a second, and then actually smiled!"Why, yes. I remember that record. It was a long time ago."
    I boldly replied, "Yeah..."
    BTW, which change does DH advise us to use for the first chord of Stella (if that's in the book- I haven't read it in a long time)?

  33. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    I actually met Dick Hyman when I was a kid. He was playing in an All-Star Band at a jazz festival. I was in an All-Kid Band at the same festival. He did indeed strike me as a mean guy when I went up to him. He said,"Well, what do you want?" I felt like taking off right then and there, but I got up the courage to say, "I've got a Tal Farlow record from 1959 that you played on."
    He thought for a second, and then actually smiled!"Why, yes. I remember that record. It was a long time ago."
    I boldly replied, "Yeah..."
    BTW, which change does DH advise us to use for the first chord of Stella (if that's in the book- I haven't read it in a long time)?
    It's not in there.... DAMMIT!

    I reckon he's a Bbo7 guy. But the Em7b5 A7 would be in red above....

  34. #133

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    I'd like to hear that Tal record, Hyman is a monster on piano.

  35. #134

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    should i buy that book christian?
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  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    should i buy that book christian?
    Yeah it's good, but out of print, I got a used copy.....

    Hyman knows his shit. Seriously.

  37. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I'd like to hear that Tal record, Hyman is a monster on piano.
    A bit hard to track down, but I think this might be from that session according to this discography: Tal Farlow Discography


  38. #137

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    Yep, that's it.

  39. #138

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    I just did a video about Stella


  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I just did a video about Stella

    Thanks Christian, just what this thread needs, a side by side comparison of the original changes and one of the "modern interpretations" together with professional explanation and comments. Brilliant!

  41. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    Stella by Starlight - The Real Chord Changes-ste-jpg
    Here's the right way (minus a few minor changes, literally). Tongue in cheek. but this is what i like
    That's exactly the same Ned Washington Fake book chart (resembling Mile's changes) that we used back in the days and which I didn't fancy (because I didn't have a reference). Today I can appreciate that it has advantages from a perspective of simplicity and improvisation, but it differs from my perspective of the song. Possibly because things got lost (intentionally or not) in Miles re-harmonization. I note that Christians Reel book reference above is slightly different.

  42. #141

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    Melody notes become part of the harmony (like it or not), which is evident when played on the same instrument (e.g chord melody). From a perspective of notation, reading, inverting, improvising and orchestration etc it's generally preferred to exclude the melody note from the chord symbol. But when writing, arranging, re-harmonizing etc it could be rewarding to view the melody as an integral part of the Harmony. It could sometimes radically change the picture of the song and how we approach it.

    -What's beneath the surface of the original version?
    "The dim-scale is the song"...don't know...I still don't see it that way. I don't question the authority of P. Bernstein or any member here, just want to dissect the song.

    We have already concluded that each time the opening melody notes appear "Ta-Da"...it's over various dim7 chords (That we may substitute for m7/-5 on our sole discretion). -But then what?

    The 2nd chord is an A7 of sort. No problem, Miles agrees.
    In the third bar the melody note F is raised one octave and the resulting harmony becomes a loud and clear C7sus4. Hmmm. The 3rd is omitted! Oh my... Miles says minor. It's all right since sevenths on suspended chords are virtually always minor sevenths. -But why not just call it C7sus4?

    Try this for fun: Play the melody without alterations over the following chord progression
    E7sus4, A7sus4, C7sus4, F7sus4, F7sus4, Bb7sus4, EbMaj7
    A very open sound, no drama. In a way it feels like major (there are no 3rds). Technically a 7sus4 chord is often viewed as minor chord (because the 4th would clash with a major 3rd), but it doesn't sound like minor. (Note: This is not the changes I play, just a way of looking at what's going on. A long series of suspensions that resolves in a Maj7)

    Where's the 3rd in a dim7-chord? It's all over the place. So why not just let it go? It depends on the level of tension and "aching dissonance" that we like to create.

    Now try this progression E7sus4-A7sus4-DMaj7. Play melody notes ("Ta-Da"); Bb-A over E7sus4 and D-C# over DMaj7
    This is a way of looking at the transition from the first chorus to the second chorus (Harmonica lead).
    A bit cheesy perhaps. No aching dissonances, just some suspensions that resolves in a sweet Maj7. No drama at all. But we can create tension and drama if we want to, by for example playing Ddim7 in the beginning of the second chorus (like Victor Young wrote it) instead of that romantic DMaj7.

    No aching dissonances, no drama, (no fun?) but perhaps easier to understand. At least a different outlook.

  43. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    That's exactly the same Ned Washington Fake book chart (resembling Mile's changes) that we used back in the days and which I didn't fancy (because I didn't have a reference). Today I can appreciate that it has advantages from a perspective of simplicity and improvisation, but it differs from my perspective of the song. Possibly because things got lost (intentionally or not) in Miles re-harmonization. I note that Christians Reel book reference above is slightly different.
    Probably because I remembered it incorrectly lol

  44. #143

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    Also I put in the extensions to reflect the melody. The Real Book seems quite inconsistent in doing this to me....