Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Posts 101 to 139 of 139
  1. #101

    User Info Menu

    Yeah, it's a dim7 arp starting and ending on Bb

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

    User Info Menu

    The A is just part of the diminished scale. When demonstrating BH played the first chord and a diminished scale and says "that's what it is...that scale is the song." that second part I found very interesting, as off the hand remarks like that coming from him usually imply something big/important.

  4. #103

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I'm curious to know more about this, as most people seem to think it's diminished. What chord do you think it is? I assume we're talking about the clip from the film music in post no. 1, where the melody starts after the intro. (unfortunately I can't listen to it at the moment).
    If we remove the top melody note: Em7/-5
    Last edited by JCat; 02-05-2019 at 10:05 AM.

  5. #104

    User Info Menu

    Hey that’s another thought someone hit me with the other day asking about writing out charts.

    Like many iim7 chords iim7b5 often anticipate the root of the V7 in the top voice.

    It’s reasonably common to write this as a iim11 but we don’t do this with IIm7b5 chords, we don’t have iim11b5

    One of those things

  6. #105

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    The A is just part of the diminished scale. When demonstrating BH played the first chord and a diminished scale and says "that's what it is...that scale is the song." that second part I found very interesting, as off the hand remarks like that coming from him usually imply something big/important.
    It’s also part of the D minor complex. Or if you like C7 —> third of A7. Same scale works on o7.

  7. #106

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    If we remove the top melody note: Em7/-5
    I don’t think you’ve checked out the original version.

  8. #107

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I don’t think you’ve checked out the original version.
    Just scratching the surface.
    m7/-5 is also referred to as "half diminished". (The difference is a b7 compared to a bb7 "dim7"). The b7 (D) resolves into the major 3rd (C#) of the next chord. That has been my understanding and I like the sound. But I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong regarding the original version...

    By the way C# is the 13th in Esus4add13/-5 as played in the workshop referred to above.
    When I first listened to the original I didn't hear the C# (bb7). I'll have a closer look.

  9. #108

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It’s also part of the D minor complex. Or if you like C7 —> third of A7. Same scale works on o7.
    right when he says diminished it includes all the related doms. I e-mailed Liane Fainsinger (she teaches Barry workshops in TO with Howard Rees) if the diminished scale was correct for scale outline. She said it's fine for the outline, but playing should be mixes of the related doms.

    she also answered that question about the #iv half to iv- scale outline, and she basically said the same thing as we thought, but she plays the change even in 1 bar phrase.

  10. #109

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    Just scratching the surface.
    m7/-5 is also referred to as "half diminished". (The difference is a b7 compared to a bb7 "dim7"). The b7 (D) resolves into the major 3rd (C#) of the next chord. That has been my understanding and I like the sound. But I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong regarding the original version...
    Well that's good. The original opening chord from the movie soundtrack (posted above) is pretty much the most obvious Bbo7 you are ever likely to hear. They even arpeggiate it in the left hand of the piano part in case you didn't get it. Cheers, Victor.

    There's nothing 'wrong' with using the Em7b5 A7 progression. I would say this is pretty standard to most jazz players. If you like that sound, you are not alone.

    By the way C# is the 13th in Esus4add13/-5 as played in the workshop referred to above.
    When I first listened to the original I didn't hear the C# (bb7). I'll have a closer look.
    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    He talks about "diminished", but he plays Esus4add13/-5. (very close to the original opening chord).
    It's the suspended 4th, that makes the transition possible. (It becomes the root in the next chord).
    (The opening chord is not the key of the song)
    The chord Peter plays in the video above is

    x x 8 6 5 5

    Or Bb, Db/C#, E, A

    Which is a Bbo7 with an A instead of a G on top.

    If you want to call it an Esus4add13/-5, be my guest. You are introducing a bass note which I don't hear, so is entirely theoretical and seems a little OTT. You could also call it Eo7add11. Which is easier. But as Peter plays Bb in the bass, it's a Bbo7(maj7) in this case.

    Dim chord with non dim chord tones in the melody aren't terribly unusual.

    TBH, I tend to go with Peter on this stuff. He's quite good at jazz guitar, you know :-) And he knows the repertoire inside out. He will have checked out the original score and so on.

  11. #110

    User Info Menu

    Oh yeah so Joe PM'd me yesterday re: the progression

    C --> F#m7b5 --> Fm6 --> C (or whatever)

    What to play on that.

    I say, D7 to Bb7 or Am6 to Fm6

    But if there's two chords per bar, that's hard. So you outline the dominant chord 1 2 3 5 or use a permutation, you know like Giant Steps tetrachords.

    Barry teaches this type of outline a lot.

    e.g. D E F# A Bb C D F on | F#m7b5 Fm6 |

  12. #111

    User Info Menu

    Getting back to Stella, the A does eventually resolve to G against the Bbo7, so it can be thought a long accented non chord tone...

    In the same way the first chord of Mahler's Adagietto for strings is not a maj7 chord in the jazz sense.... not really....

  13. #112

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Getting back to Stella, the A does eventually resolve to G against the Bbo7, so it can be thought a long accented non chord tone...

    In the same way the first chord of Mahler's Adagietto for strings is not a maj7 chord in the jazz sense.... not really....
    A lot of the Broadway show composers back then were heavily influenced by classical music(e.g. Operetta), so Mahler is an apt example of where he probably got it from. Sort of like the first note and chord of "Spring is Here".

  14. #113

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    A lot of the Broadway show composers back then were heavily influenced by classical music(e.g. Operetta), so Mahler is an apt example of where he probably got it from. Sort of like the first note and chord of "Spring is Here".
    Esp as the original version of Stella literally sounds like Rachmaninov.

    It’s not broadway, it’s Hollywood in this case- and Hollywood scores in this period are obviously coming out of European romanticism (not least because of the many European composers who ended up there.)
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-06-2019 at 03:44 AM.

  15. #114

    User Info Menu

    Yes interesting to read about Victor Young (composed Stella), in his youth he studied piano and violin in Warsaw and Paris.

    Victor Young - Wikipedia

  16. #115

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well that's good. The original opening chord from the movie soundtrack (posted above) is pretty much the most obvious Bbo7 you are ever likely to hear. They even arpeggiate it in the left hand of the piano part in case you didn't get it. Cheers, Victor.

    There's nothing 'wrong' with using the Em7b5 A7 progression. I would say this is pretty standard to most jazz players. If you like that sound, you are not alone.



    The chord Peter plays in the video above is

    x x 8 6 5 5

    Or Bb, Db/C#, E, A

    Which is a Bbo7 with an A instead of a G on top.

    If you want to call it an Esus4add13/-5, be my guest. You are introducing a bass note which I don't hear, so is entirely theoretical and seems a little OTT. You could also call it Eo7add11. Which is easier. But as Peter plays Bb in the bass, it's a Bbo7(maj7) in this case.

    Dim chord with non dim chord tones in the melody aren't terribly unusual.

    TBH, I tend to go with Peter on this stuff. He's quite good at jazz guitar, you know :-) And he knows the repertoire inside out. He will have checked out the original score and so on.
    OK, you're right. The opening chord is an unambiguous Edim7. Straight ascending minor triads.

    I'm guilty of being blocked by my own perceptions (I guess I heard what I wanted to hear).
    The second time it appears in the first chorus (melody notes Bb-A) it's also Edim7.
    In the 2nd chorus (change of key, Harmonica lead) the melody notes are D-C# played over a Ddim7 the first time and Fdim7 (which essentially is the same chord) the second time.

    Now I just have to "get it through my skull" that "that scale is the song" as there are a lot of other things going on in between these changes. My own personal documentation of this song contains zero (!) dim7-chords, but a few m7/-5 (Half-dims). But this is the first time I address the original, so maybe I'll rearrange my interpretation. I still enjoy this thread. Awesome input guys.

  17. #116

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    My own personal documentation of this song contains zero (!) dim7-chords, but a few m7/-5 (Half-dims). But this is the first time I address the original, so maybe I'll rearrange my interpretation. I still enjoy this thread. Awesome input guys.
    The first chord is the only fully dim chord I play (except as subs or harmonic movement). I counted the half dims I use for my basic harmonic outline, and I use 7!

  18. #117

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    OK, you're right. The opening chord is an unambiguous Edim7. Straight ascending minor triads.

    I'm guilty of being blocked by my own perceptions (I guess I heard what I wanted to hear).
    The second time it appears in the first chorus (melody notes Bb-A) it's also Edim7.
    In the 2nd chorus (change of key, Harmonica lead) the melody notes are D-C# played over a Ddim7 the first time and Fdim7 (which essentially is the same chord) the second time.

    Now I just have to "get it through my skull" that "that scale is the song" as there are a lot of other things going on in between these changes. My own personal documentation of this song contains zero (!) dim7-chords, but a few m7/-5 (Half-dims). But this is the first time I address the original, so maybe I'll rearrange my interpretation. I still enjoy this thread. Awesome input guys.
    No problem....

    I’d still call it a Bbo7, same difference note wise but that’s what seems to be in the bass.

    Personally this is how I learnt much of the harmony I know FWIW comparing versions of changes.

    In general the move in jazz during the 50s was a way from dim7s and towards ii v’s. It’s good to look out for this stuff, because who actually likes playing on diminished chords?

    So you have learnt we can make this sub

    Bbo7 becomes Em7b5 A7b9 in Bb

    Or

    Io7 becomes #VIm7b5 VII7b9

  19. #118

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    The first chord is the only fully dim chord I play (except as subs or harmonic movement). I counted the half dims I use for my basic harmonic outline, and I use 7!
    That tune is the m7b5 workout along with Woody n You (last 8 is the same as the A section of that tune harmonically.)

    I quite like dim7 in the last 8 too... the original changes have quite a few differences not just the first chord.

    But, you can solo on the old changes with the new changes provided you aren’t a spanner and put a b5 on the A7b9. Sounds a bit crap when I did it. That sound should be dim/harmonic minor mode V/h-W scale with a regular 5 - not the altered scale.

    London pianist Sam Leak suggests C/Db as a sub for the first chord as a way to keep everyone happy.

    Db C E G (A)

  20. #119

    User Info Menu

    Stella by Starlight - The Real Chord Changes-ste-jpg
    Here's the right way (minus a few minor changes, literally). Tongue in cheek. but this is what i like

  21. #120

    User Info Menu

    Try Gm6 instead of Em7b5 A7 in bar 10 then:

    Dm Bbm6/Db F/C Bbo7 Am7b5 D7b9

    Also Ebminmaj7 instead of Ab7#11

    Pretty old school

  22. #121

    User Info Menu

    Btw I just rediscovered the best jazz chord wanker’s book “Dick Hyman’s 100 songs every musician should know.”

    There’s a guy who likes his original and correct changes. More so than human beings, I have heard.

  23. #122

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Try Gm6 instead of Em7b5 A7 in bar 10 then:

    Dm Bbm6/Db F/C Bbo7 Am7b5 D7b9

    Also Ebminmaj7 instead of Ab7#11

    Pretty old school
    Thanks! will definitely try (though it impinges on my signature move). yeah, old school is my thing. I like to imagine those romantic string sections when i make arrangements. not even jazz really.

    do you mean Gmin6 to A7 or just Gmin6 for the bar?

  24. #123

    User Info Menu

    Dm Bbm6 (where there was d-7) /Db F (where there was b half to Bbmin) /C Bbo7 Am7b5 D7b9 (where there was fmaj)...then end up on g-7 c7?

  25. #124

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Dm Bbm6 (where there was d-7) /Db F (where there was b half to Bbmin) /C Bbo7 Am7b5 D7b9 (where there was fmaj)...then end up on g-7 c7?
    One bar each, end up in the bridge

  26. #125

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Thanks! will definitely try (though it impinges on my signature move). yeah, old school is my thing. I like to imagine those romantic string sections when i make arrangements. not even jazz really.

    do you mean Gmin6 to A7 or just Gmin6 for the bar?
    No A7, just Gm6 for the bar

  27. #126

    User Info Menu

    oooh the slashes are bass notes, i thought they were bar lines

  28. #127

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    So you have learnt we can make this sub

    Bbo7 becomes Em7b5 A7b9 in Bb

    Or

    Io7 becomes #VIm7b5 VII7b9
    should that be #IV7b5 Christian ?

    Pingu

  29. #128

    User Info Menu

    Actually I think you’ll find it’s #IV MINOR 7b5 ;-)

  30. #129

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Yes interesting to read about Victor Young (composed Stella), in his youth he studied piano and violin in Warsaw and Paris.

    Victor Young - Wikipedia
    Thanks, Graham. See Christian, he did compose five musicals, in addition to the many films he did.
    I deserve at least half credit on that one, if not full credit!

  31. #130

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The thought had crossed my mind. But does he need to be such a ....... oh hang on.....
    I actually met Dick Hyman when I was a kid. He was playing in an All-Star Band at a jazz festival. I was in an All-Kid Band at the same festival. He did indeed strike me as a mean guy when I went up to him. He said,"Well, what do you want?" I felt like taking off right then and there, but I got up the courage to say, "I've got a Tal Farlow record from 1959 that you played on."
    He thought for a second, and then actually smiled!"Why, yes. I remember that record. It was a long time ago."
    I boldly replied, "Yeah..."
    BTW, which change does DH advise us to use for the first chord of Stella (if that's in the book- I haven't read it in a long time)?

  32. #131

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    I actually met Dick Hyman when I was a kid. He was playing in an All-Star Band at a jazz festival. I was in an All-Kid Band at the same festival. He did indeed strike me as a mean guy when I went up to him. He said,"Well, what do you want?" I felt like taking off right then and there, but I got up the courage to say, "I've got a Tal Farlow record from 1959 that you played on."
    He thought for a second, and then actually smiled!"Why, yes. I remember that record. It was a long time ago."
    I boldly replied, "Yeah..."
    BTW, which change does DH advise us to use for the first chord of Stella (if that's in the book- I haven't read it in a long time)?
    It's not in there.... DAMMIT!

    I reckon he's a Bbo7 guy. But the Em7b5 A7 would be in red above....

  33. #132

    User Info Menu

    I'd like to hear that Tal record, Hyman is a monster on piano.

  34. #133

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I'd like to hear that Tal record, Hyman is a monster on piano.
    A bit hard to track down, but I think this might be from that session according to this discography: Tal Farlow Discography


  35. #134

    User Info Menu

    Yep, that's it.

  36. #135

    User Info Menu

    I just did a video about Stella


  37. #136

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I just did a video about Stella

    Thanks Christian, just what this thread needs, a side by side comparison of the original changes and one of the "modern interpretations" together with professional explanation and comments. Brilliant!

  38. #137

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Stella by Starlight - The Real Chord Changes-ste-jpg
    Here's the right way (minus a few minor changes, literally). Tongue in cheek. but this is what i like
    That's exactly the same Ned Washington Fake book chart (resembling Mile's changes) that we used back in the days and which I didn't fancy (because I didn't have a reference). Today I can appreciate that it has advantages from a perspective of simplicity and improvisation, but it differs from my perspective of the song. Possibly because things got lost (intentionally or not) in Miles re-harmonization. I note that Christians Reel book reference above is slightly different.

  39. #138

    User Info Menu

    Melody notes become part of the harmony (like it or not), which is evident when played on the same instrument (e.g chord melody). From a perspective of notation, reading, inverting, improvising and orchestration etc it's generally preferred to exclude the melody note from the chord symbol. But when writing, arranging, re-harmonizing etc it could be rewarding to view the melody as an integral part of the Harmony. It could sometimes radically change the picture of the song and how we approach it.

    -What's beneath the surface of the original version?
    "The dim-scale is the song"...don't know...I still don't see it that way. I don't question the authority of P. Bernstein or any member here, just want to dissect the song.

    We have already concluded that each time the opening melody notes appear "Ta-Da"...it's over various dim7 chords (That we may substitute for m7/-5 on our sole discretion). -But then what?

    The 2nd chord is an A7 of sort. No problem, Miles agrees.
    In the third bar the melody note F is raised one octave and the resulting harmony becomes a loud and clear C7sus4. Hmmm. The 3rd is omitted! Oh my... Miles says minor. It's all right since sevenths on suspended chords are virtually always minor sevenths. -But why not just call it C7sus4?

    Try this for fun: Play the melody without alterations over the following chord progression
    E7sus4, A7sus4, C7sus4, F7sus4, F7sus4, Bb7sus4, EbMaj7
    A very open sound, no drama. In a way it feels like major (there are no 3rds). Technically a 7sus4 chord is often viewed as minor chord (because the 4th would clash with a major 3rd), but it doesn't sound like minor. (Note: This is not the changes I play, just a way of looking at what's going on. A long series of suspensions that resolves in a Maj7)

    Where's the 3rd in a dim7-chord? It's all over the place. So why not just let it go? It depends on the level of tension and "aching dissonance" that we like to create.

    Now try this progression E7sus4-A7sus4-DMaj7. Play melody notes ("Ta-Da"); Bb-A over E7sus4 and D-C# over DMaj7
    This is a way of looking at the transition from the first chorus to the second chorus (Harmonica lead).
    A bit cheesy perhaps. No aching dissonances, just some suspensions that resolves in a sweet Maj7. No drama at all. But we can create tension and drama if we want to, by for example playing Ddim7 in the beginning of the second chorus (like Victor Young wrote it) instead of that romantic DMaj7.

    No aching dissonances, no drama, (no fun?) but perhaps easier to understand. At least a different outlook.

  40. #139

    User Info Menu

    Also I put in the extensions to reflect the melody. The Real Book seems quite inconsistent in doing this to me....